Israel targets a UN outpost

[Charles Anthony]

Where is the redundancy eliminated????

Instead of having parallel services doing the same thing, overlapping, you can create an organization above them to organize it all.

Not everybody agrees.

[Michael Hardner]

We're discussing the things that a UN could possibly bring to the table, not what they're good at now. If they're an inefficient bureaucracy, it doesn't necessarily follow that NO bureaucracy is better.

[Argus]

IMO Its time Harper learned some new phrases, and comments, he is beginning to sound like a puppet - "Collateral damage" is one phrase he has spouted a tad too often - He is coming across as a totally inffective incompetent PM who is at a loss as to how to deal with an International crisis

Sure. That's why his popularity keeps going up and why most Canadians to date agree with his position on Israel and Lebanon.

Not all of us shrink away from the realities of the world just because someone takes a picture of them and puts it on the internet.

[GostHacked]

Ottawa Citizen today had an article on Harper asking why the UN troops were there in the first place. Claiming it is a war zone.

Ottawa Citizen July 27/2006

Prime Minister Steven Harper says he seriously doubts Israeli forces deliberatley targeted a UN post in Southern Lebanon, killing a Canadian and three other unarmed observers, and wants to know why the station was being manned in the midst of what amounts to a war

Well holy crap Harper why the hell do you THINK they are there? One of the most idiotic statements I have heard from this man's mouth. In the same paper there is a report the Hezbollah was hiding and using the UN post and area as cover fire. Now that the UN is out and nothing can be monitored, I have a feeling Israel will step up the attacks. This shows they have gotten away with murder (since the UN warned SEVERAL TIMES to Israel that it was hitting close to that UN post. But that went ignored. This opens it up for Israel to continue their campaign now that there are less UN observers (or maybe from Israel's point of view)

So this gets rid of a litle problem from the Israeli standpoint. No observers? No way to determine what is going on. Again, all this gets tied up in the UN, no action will be taken against Israel, and the US will veto anything that is thrown at Israel.

[jdobbin]

Sure. That's why his popularity keeps going up and why most Canadians to date agree with his position on Israel and Lebanon.

Not all of us shrink away from the realities of the world just because someone takes a picture of them and puts it on the internet.

Part of that responsibility is to condemn the attack on unarmed observers.

If Harper didn't believe in UNIFIL, his government certainly didn't say a thing. The UNIFIL mandate was to end on July 31st of this year and the U.N. intended to renew that committment. So Harper can't say he didn't know what the U.N. Forces were doing there.

http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N06...pdf?OpenElement

Canada was the only country that lost a soldier that wasn't critical of what happened. The Chinese, Finns and Irish were mad as hell, especially when it was learned that the Irish soldier repeatedly called Israeli Forces.

[Argus]

Ottawa Citizen today had an article on Harper asking why the UN troops were there in the first place. Claiming it is a war zone.

Ottawa Citizen July 27/2006

Prime Minister Steven Harper says he seriously doubts Israeli forces deliberatley targeted a UN post in Southern Lebanon, killing a Canadian and three other unarmed observers, and wants to know why the station was being manned in the midst of what amounts to a war

Well holy crap Harper why the hell do you THINK they are there?

Why don't you tell us? The intent was to monitor a ceasefire which died months ago, and deteriorated into open war a couple of weeks back. What the hell is there to monitor, and why would you want to? Are they going to count the umpteen rockets and missiles flying back and forth? For what reason?

[GostHacked]

Ottawa Citizen today had an article on Harper asking why the UN troops were there in the first place. Claiming it is a war zone.

Ottawa Citizen July 27/2006

Prime Minister Steven Harper says he seriously doubts Israeli forces deliberatley targeted a UN post in Southern Lebanon, killing a Canadian and three other unarmed observers, and wants to know why the station was being manned in the midst of what amounts to a war

Well holy crap Harper why the hell do you THINK they are there?

Why don't you tell us? The intent was to monitor a ceasefire which died months ago, and deteriorated into open war a couple of weeks back. What the hell is there to monitor, and why would you want to? Are they going to count the umpteen rockets and missiles flying back and forth? For what reason?

There has been no official proclamation of war. Hezbollah cannot do it. They are not the coutnry or even the ruling party. Israel CAN declare war, which I don't think they have done as of yet. So that means a ceasfire was still in place regardless of the actions on both sides. Still UN post gets deliberatly targeted and you don't seem to have a problem with it.

So on that note screw it. Let the Hezbollah rockets fly. Let the Israeli F-16s drop bombs on Gaza and South Lebanon. I don't care anymore. Let's go ahead and make a bad situation worse.

[watching&waiting]

Once again Harper has hit the nail on the head. There were no good reasons for keeping that Un post manned and since we were already telling all Canadians to get out of Lebanon, it is just one more signal for the UN to get out as well. The blame for the post having people there to be killed is the UN's own problem. They simply just do not know when they are not needed, and in fact they should have been removed months back.

There is no garantee in war that your position even if neutral will not get bombed and people there die. Yes I am sure the Israelli commanders will apologize for this time and time again, but the question now should be are there any more UN troops with feet on the ground in Lebanon and if so, how we get them out of there asap. Koffi Anan can try to deflect the blame for the UN's lack of ensuring that old posts that are no longer applicable in a war zone are evacuated and the troops brought back to cover.

Harper should show his leadership skills by making that request of the UN immediately. I see Harper gaining more and more support for his view of things every day. Only those who are inclined to find fault with everything he says or does seem to be trying make more out of this then it really is. He will come out of all of this shining and the others will have the egg on their faces.

[Black Dog]

Why don't you tell us? The intent was to monitor a ceasefire which died months ago, and deteriorated into open war a couple of weeks back. What the hell is there to monitor, and why would you want to? Are they going to count the umpteen rockets and missiles flying back and forth? For what reason?

"Listen lady, I'm terribly sorry about you egtting raped and almost killed, but you should have known better than to go into that part of town wearing an outfit like that. I mean, you were practically asking for it."

How come when there's a terrorist attack, discussion of "root causes" is off the table and responsibility is to be asigned to the perpatrators. Yet in this case, the fault lies not wih the people who pulled the trigger, but with the people who were in the way of the shells. Why does consistency go out the window when Israel is involved?

[August1991]

One has to draw the inevitable conclusion that the UN is either incompetent or partisan. If it has become partisan, then that's despicable.

It appears that the UN left the troops there despite the obvious danger. It was like a set-up in which something bad was bound to happen and it was likely to reflect badly on the Israelis.

I notice that Australia has withdrawn its peacekeeping troops from south Lebanon. If Harper can be faulted, it's for having left this soldier in UNIFIL on the Lebanese/Israeli border.

From what I can gather, there is no love lost between UNIFIL and the IDF.

[planetx]

would it not be polite to urge the un to abandon such sites that are close to active targets?

[Black Dog]

One has to draw the inevitable conclusion that the UN is either incompetent or partisan. If it has become partisan, then that's despicable.

It appears that the UN left the troops there despite the obvious danger. It was like a set-up in which something bad was bound to happen and it was likely to reflect badly on the Israelis.

As the old maxim goes: never attribute to malice that which can easily be explained by stupidity. It's far more likely the UN believed the observers would be protected by their UN status or did not expect things to get hot in their area (remember, this conflict is barely a week old). They certainly didn't force Israel to shell the post for six hours.

[jdobbin]

Once again Harper has hit the nail on the head. There were no good reasons for keeping that Un post manned and since we were already telling all Canadians to get out of Lebanon, it is just one more signal for the UN to get out as well. The blame for the post having people there to be killed is the UN's own problem. They simply just do not know when they are not needed, and in fact they should have been removed months back.

Why didn't Harper's government request that UNIFIL role should end this July? His government was about to endorse another year

[jdobbin]

Canadian wife of soldiers killed by Israelis says bombing was intentional.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

[GostHacked]

Canadian wife of soldiers killed by Israelis says bombing was intentional.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

I was expecting the label on the bunker was HEZBOLLAH, not UN. Wow what a mess.

[Argus]

Why don't you tell us? The intent was to monitor a ceasefire which died months ago, and deteriorated into open war a couple of weeks back. What the hell is there to monitor, and why would you want to? Are they going to count the umpteen rockets and missiles flying back and forth? For what reason?

"Listen lady, I'm terribly sorry about you egtting raped and almost killed, but you should have known better than to go into that part of town wearing an outfit like that. I mean, you were practically asking for it."

That's a load of crap. Going into the middle of a war zone and sitting there, unarmed, expecting to have a good show and not be molested is more like staging the Tolstoy in the middle of the 401 and being outraged the cars are hitting some of your players.

How come when there's a terrorist attack, discussion of "root causes" is off the table and responsibility is to be asigned to the perpatrators. Yet in this case, the fault lies not wih the people who pulled the trigger, but with the people who were in the way of the shells.

First, you're leaving aside a little thing called "intent". There is never any question that terrorists intend to kill innocent people. That's their objective. So there's no point blaming anyone else. The Israelis are not intentionally trying to kill innocent bystanders, but shit happens in war. No matter how sophisticated your weapons. That's why every time there's a war there are friendly fire victims. So you don't sit down in the middle of one and count the pigeons flying overhead.

And again, for what? For what good reason were they there? Just what were they observing? I'm not blaming the observers. I'm blaming the idiots at the UN. who didn't pull; them out.

[Argus]

One has to draw the inevitable conclusion that the UN is either incompetent or partisan. If it has become partisan, then that's despicable.

It appears that the UN left the troops there despite the obvious danger. It was like a set-up in which something bad was bound to happen and it was likely to reflect badly on the Israelis.

I notice that Australia has withdrawn its peacekeeping troops from south Lebanon. If Harper can be faulted, it's for having left this soldier in UNIFIL on the Lebanese/Israeli border.

From what I can gather, there is no love lost between UNIFIL and the IDF.

I don't think they knew he was there. There was a report the other day, attributed to either DND or the government, right after the bombing, that there were no Canadians serving with UNIFIL. Maybe someone gave them the wrong information.

[jdobbin]

I don't think they knew he was there. There was a report the other day, attributed to either DND or the government, right after the bombing, that there were no Canadians serving with UNIFIL. Maybe someone gave them the wrong information.

Then that person or persons should be fired. UNIFIL has a very clear description of who is in their command. It states quite clearly that Canadians among the observers.

[GostHacked]

Argus

And again, for what? For what good reason were they there? Just what were they observing? I'm not blaming the observers. I'm blaming the idiots at the UN. who didn't pull; them out.

Well it's not like the UN did not warn Israel of it. It's not like they had time to pull the guys out. It's not like Israel gives alot of warning before they drop the bombs.

[gerryhatrick]

Calling the UN irrelavent is ridiculous.

We can see from some of the posts here what the REAL objection to the UN is....the ideologues think it's a "world government". And that's why they're against it and that's why it can never do anything right in their eyes. They missed their chance to say nothing in this thread, unfortunately. It's always the same.

The point is that Israel either bombed this post on purpose, or they have a severe command and control problem.

When I say "on purpose", realize what that means. This is very important, and of course has been ignored by Harper and the Israelis and the US.

On purpose could mean a pilot decided on his own to do it.

On purpose could mean a tank gunner also decided to do it.

On purpose could mean that someone doing the laser pointing decided to do it.

On purpose could mean that the provider of coordinates decided to do it.

The IDF command structure probably didn't order it. That's a little ridiculous, which is of course why Harper/US/Israelis are suggesting Kofi said it. He didn't. He said it was "apparently deliberate", and it very much apparently was.

Or, the IDF was inept.

[August1991]

Calling the UN irrelavent is ridiculous.

We can see from some of the posts here what the REAL objection to the UN is....the ideologues think it's a "world government". And that's why they're against it and that's why it can never do anything right in their eyes. They missed their chance to say nothing in this thread, unfortunately. It's always the same.

The debate about the UN's relevance is perfectly germane and we have several threads on the topic.

The UN is about as relevant to world events now as the League of Nations was relevant to the Normandy invasion. If you can't see that and undertstand it, then you're the musician one page behind everyone else in the orchestra.

----

This thread concerns what a Canadian soldier was doing in a UN peacekeeping force and what the UN force was doing in the middle of a war zone. These deaths have brought to light the incompetence of the UN chain of command. The more I read about this, the more apparent it is that UNIFIL was not an independent observor but operated alongside Hizballah and even assisted it.

Anyway, despite what Kofi Annan said, and despite this thead's title, we have no evidence that the IDF targetted UNIFIL.

I think Harper should pull Canadian troops out of any UN peacekeeping forces.

I don't think they knew he was there. There was a report the other day, attributed to either DND or the government, right after the bombing, that there were no Canadians serving with UNIFIL. Maybe someone gave them the wrong information.

As frightening as that sounds, it's believable. I'll bet that two weeks ago, Harper and O'Connor didn't know that there was a Canadian soldier on the Lebanese/Israeli border.

[jdobbin]

This thread concerns what a Canadian soldier was doing in a UN peacekeeping force and what the UN force was doing in the middle of a war zone. These deaths have brought to light the incompetence of the UN chain of command. The more I read about this, the more apparent it is that UNIFIL was not an independent observor but operated alongside Hizballah and even assisted it.

Anyway, despite what Kofi Annan said, and despite this thead's title, we have no evidence that the IDF targetted UNIFIL.

I think Harper should pull Canadian troops out of any UN peacekeeping forces.

As frightening as that sounds, it's believable. I'll bet that two weeks ago, Harper and O'Connor didn't know that there was a Canadian soldier on the Lebanese/Israeli border.

UNIFIL was assisting Hezbollah? I don't even think Lewis MacKenzie would agree with you there.

UNIFIL's last report to the U.N. was quite clear that there was a Hezbollah problem and asked for assistance in helping to diffuse it. That report would have been on McKay's, O'Connor's and Harper's desk in the the daily Defence briefing. UNIFIL's mandate was up at the end of July. McKay would have known that because Canada was about to renew its committment as per usual.

[cybercoma]

Argus

And again, for what? For what good reason were they there? Just what were they observing? I'm not blaming the observers. I'm blaming the idiots at the UN. who didn't pull; them out.

Well it's not like the UN did not warn Israel of it. It's not like they had time to pull the guys out. It's not like Israel gives alot of warning before they drop the bombs.

I mean...other than the fact that bombs were falling for a week before the post got hit. I'm just sayin...

[cybercoma]

Canadian wife of soldiers killed by Israelis says bombing was intentional.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

And interesting point from the Canadian UN observer before his death, "(O)ur vantage point which has a commanding view of the IDF (Israeli Defence Forces) positions on the Golan mountains to our east and the IDF positions along the Blue Line to our south, as well as, most of the Hezbollah static positions in and around our patrol base."

"It appears that the lion's share of fighting between the IDF and Hezbollah has taken place in our area."

Probably a good clue to pack your bags....

[jdobbin]

Probably a good clue to pack your bags....

And who was to give those orders?