Israel targets a UN outpost

[cybercoma]

Probably a good clue to pack your bags....

And who was to give those orders?

I don't know, but I'm just saying...if Hezbollah is operating "in and around [their] patrol base," there's a problem. Israel was bombing Hezbollah positions.....and admitted by the UN those positions were in and around their patrol base...sorry. Sounds like Israel really did hit it on purpose...except they were trying to hit Hezbollah and the UN was in the way. Tragic, yes...surprising, not in the least bit now.

[Wilber]

Why were so called "Peace Keepers" sitting on top of a hill in a war zone between two parties who were doing their best to kill each other, when at least one of those parties is known not to have wanted them there? Any idiot should know that something bad is likely to happen whether it is premeditated or not.

[cybercoma]

Why were so called "Peace Keepers" sitting on top of a hill in a war zone between two parties who were doing their best to kill each other, when at least one of those parties is known not to have wanted them there? Any idiot should know that something bad is likely to happen whether it is premeditated or not.

Ask, why would peacekeepers be positioned with terrorists?

[BubberMiley]

Why would peacekeepers be in a war zone? It's a contradiction in terms! If they were true peacekeepers, they would be in a peace zone.

[cybercoma]

Why would peacekeepers be in a war zone? It's a contradiction in terms! If they were true peacekeepers, they would be in a peace zone.

Why are you surprised then, that their post was hit when they were positioned WITH the terrorists?

[jdobbin]

I don't know, but I'm just saying...if Hezbollah is operating "in and around [their] patrol base," there's a problem. Israel was bombing Hezbollah positions.....and admitted by the UN those positions were in and around their patrol base...sorry. Sounds like Israel really did hit it on purpose...except they were trying to hit Hezbollah and the UN was in the way. Tragic, yes...surprising, not in the least bit now.

If U.N Forces are in danger even now, Harper should ask to have them pulled. Sounds like he is blaming the victims here.

He said Canadian soldiers don't cut and run. Well, that's true. They need orders. And those orders had to be initiated by someone. The U.N. responds to motions from its ambassadors. Where was Canada's?

[Wilber]

Why were so called "Peace Keepers" sitting on top of a hill in a war zone between two parties who were doing their best to kill each other, when at least one of those parties is known not to have wanted them there? Any idiot should know that something bad is likely to happen whether it is premeditated or not.

Ask, why would peacekeepers be positioned with terrorists?

I assume they were on the Lebanon side of the border because they were not welcome on the Israeli side. That doesn't make them "with terrorists".

[cybercoma]

The Canadian soldier said the terrorists were in and around their patrol base...

When bombs are falling, that unfortunately makes them with the terrorists.

[Wilber]

I don't know, but I'm just saying...if Hezbollah is operating "in and around [their] patrol base," there's a problem. Israel was bombing Hezbollah positions.....and admitted by the UN those positions were in and around their patrol base...sorry. Sounds like Israel really did hit it on purpose...except they were trying to hit Hezbollah and the UN was in the way. Tragic, yes...surprising, not in the least bit now.

If U.N Forces are in danger even now, Harper should ask to have them pulled. Sounds like he is blaming the victims here.

He said Canadian soldiers don't cut and run. Well, that's true. They need orders. And those orders had to be initiated by someone. The U.N. responds to motions from its ambassadors. Where was Canada's?

I don't think he is blaming the victims but he has every reason to question why the UN left them there. UN missions are just that, UN missions not Canadian missions and the soldiers we send on them are not always commanded by Canadians.

[Wilber]

The Canadian soldier said the terrorists were in and around their patrol base...

When bombs are falling, that unfortunately makes them with the terrorists.

OK, so if the Israelis had surrounded their base and they were taken out by a Hezbollah rocket they would have been with the Israelis. Glad we got that straight.

[jdobbin]

I don't think he is blaming the victims but he has every reason to question why the UN left them there. UN missions are just that, UN missions not Canadian missions and the soldiers we send on them are not always commanded by Canadians.

But the U.N. is the sum of the membership. Our ambassador should have asked they be pulled out.

[gerryhatrick]

The Canadian soldier said the terrorists were in and around their patrol base...

When bombs are falling, that unfortunately makes them with the terrorists.

B#llSH!T!!

He did not say they were "in" their base.

He also did not say they were around the base the day of the bombing.

There is NO ESCAPING the FACT that the IDF was notified NINE TIMES of bombs falling close to the post on the fateful day, and that each time the IDF assured the UN post that the attacks would stop.

DOES ANYONE DENY THESE FACTS????

No.

So all the rest is BS.

And to those who are outraged at Kofi Annan over his "apparently deliberate" comment, you fail to recognize an important distinction:

The targeting of the UN post could have been the DELIBERATE work of one or more bad apples in the IDF.

Given that Israel has a share of rightwingers who hate the UN, this is not out of the question.

Harper assumes (as does the US and Israel) that the comment by Kofi Annan means he accuses the Israeli government or IDF command of deliberately targeting the post. That ignores the other possible deliberate attack scenarios.

[sharkman]

The Canadian soldier said the terrorists were in and around their patrol base...

When bombs are falling, that unfortunately makes them with the terrorists.

After all, it's been shown in several recent confllicts how smart bombs are only so smart. Obviously, the Hezzies were pressing close to the UN to use it as a shield of sorts, and since the UN did nothing about that, they were giving silent consent to being used as a shield at the least.

[jdobbin]

After all, it's been shown in several recent confllicts how smart bombs are only so smart. Obviously, the Hezzies were pressing close to the UN to use it as a shield of sorts, and since the UN did nothing about that, they were giving silent consent to being used as a shield at the least.

They were unarmed U.N. observers who had been assured, reassured and reassured again and again that they would not be targeted by the Israelis. It's a large white building with U.N, on it. The Israelis have a 3D mapping of all buildings in Lebanon according to ABC News. Please don't tell me that the Canadian soldier who lost his life was complicit in his own own death.

[Wilber]

I don't think he is blaming the victims but he has every reason to question why the UN left them there. UN missions are just that, UN missions not Canadian missions and the soldiers we send on them are not always commanded by Canadians.

But the U.N. is the sum of the membership. Our ambassador should have asked they be pulled out.

Considering the result, 20/20 hindsight would confirm that.

[jdobbin]

Considering the result, 20/20 hindsight would confirm that.

There's still lots of soldiers there. Why isn't Harper immediately asking they be pulled out now?

[Wilber]

Considering the result, 20/20 hindsight would confirm that.

There's still lots of soldiers there. Why isn't Harper immediately asking they be pulled out now?

Are there and if so how many are Canadian? There seems to be some question as to whether the government knew the victim was stationed where he was.

[jdobbin]

Are there and if so how many are Canadian? There seems to be some question as to whether the government knew the victim was stationed where he was.

How could they not know? They get a Defence briefing every morning. Lewis MacKenzie, a Conservative was in touch with the Canadian every day.

[Wilber]

Are there and if so how many are Canadian? There seems to be some question as to whether the government knew the victim was stationed where he was.

How could they not know? They get a Defence briefing every morning. Lewis MacKenzie, a Conservative was in touch with the Canadian every day.

Fair question but neither of us knows the answer.

[jdobbin]

Fair question but neither of us knows the answer.

Just finished reading yesterday's Globe and Mail. They report 7 other Canadaian soldiers in UNIFIL.

So, if they are in danger, what is Harper doing about that?

[geoffrey]

How could they not know? They get a Defence briefing every morning. Lewis MacKenzie, a Conservative was in touch with the Canadian every day.

Fair question but neither of us knows the answer.

Do you think a defense briefing would cover routine postings of one guy? Unlikely.

The UN base was wlel marked and known to the Israeli's before they used laser guided munitions on it though. Was it intentional? Don't know, it was obviously intentional that they blew up that building, laser guidance works pretty well.

Did they know what was in that building? Yup.

So what gives? Where did this become a mistake?

[GostHacked]

The Canadian soldier said the terrorists were in and around their patrol base...

When bombs are falling, that unfortunately makes them with the terrorists.

edit

The targeting of the UN post could have been the DELIBERATE work of one or more bad apples in the IDF.

Given that Israel has a share of rightwingers who hate the UN, this is not out of the question.

Well the Hezbollah members that captured the Israeli soldiers were only a couple of bad apples. Not ALL Hezbollah wants to start a war. Come on. The orders were given. Plain and simple. Just top secret and only certain people need to know kind of top secret.

sharkman

After all, it's been shown in several recent confllicts how smart bombs are only so smart. Obviously, the Hezzies were pressing close to the UN to use it as a shield of sorts, and since the UN did nothing about that, they were giving silent consent to being used as a shield at the least.

I don't see now the UN could enforce anything in Southen Lebanon. I agree they have been useless in the past with dealing with Israel. Does the UN consider So yeah I am starting to agree they should have been pulled out. I personaly would have not waited for orders to GTFO.

If I am being used as a sheild and a target at the same time. Time to bug out.

Also it seems that the UN and the EU as up to this point do not recognize Hezbollah as a terrorist organization. Odd.

[gerryhatrick]

Well the Hezbollah members that captured the Israeli soldiers were only a couple of bad apples. Not ALL Hezbollah wants to start a war. Come on. The orders were given. Plain and simple.

"Come on"? Don't be ridiculous. You cannot make that claim and it's not even the most likely scenario to any rational thinker.

The two most likely scenarios are the bad apples or breakdown of command and control.

Your claim that it's "plain and simple" to see the Israeli chain of command gave the order is just silly.

So yeah I am starting to agree they should have been pulled out. I personaly would have not waited for orders to GTFO.

While it's interesting to know that you would have abandoned your post it's not really relavent to the debate.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Those brave men died in service to their countries. They were soldiers in their own nations and attached to a UN security force that was assigned a dangerous mission. In carrying out that mission they all lost their lives. That is a sad reality, but no amount of crying will bring them back. No number of investigations will bring them back. No matter who was at fault and responsible for their deaths the facts will forever remain that they died in the service of their country.

They did not bug out, they never cut and ran even when it was clear that their lives were in danger. They stayed and did their job under the most difficult conditions. They lost their lives in an effort to complete their mission of maintaining peace. They should be honoured for their sacrifice.

Sadly the members of this forum choose to lay blame on one side or another in this conflict and declare that the UN failed in its responsibility. If the UN fails we fail because we are a part of it. I refuse to believe that those brave men that gave their very lives in the cause of peace failed. The only failure here was a political one.

The UN needs reforms if we are to be able to find some measure of hope for world peace. Those brave men gave their lives for peace, can we do less than to give some political ground for peace? It is time for the citizens of this planet to be as brave as those soldiers and seek meaningful changes in international relations. If the UN cannot do the job, then we should get rid of it. It the UN will not reform itself we should get out of it.

[Army Guy]

Im finding it hard to still believe that you guys are still questioning "WHO"S at fault". Ive post the below link twice already and i'll post it again. It was written by The Very Canadian soldier whom was tragically killed.

Whom do we believe, the guy on the ground, or the current media hype, or speculation of those on this board.

My Webpage

for those of you whom can't work the link button:

What I can tell you is this: we have on a daily basis had numerous occasions where our position has come under direct or indirect fire from both artillery and aerial bombing. The closest artillery has landed within 2 meters of our position and the closest 1000 lb aerial bomb has landed 100 meters from our patrol base. This has not been deliberate targeting, but has rather been due to tactical necessity.

I think his statement answers a few questions, Like was it deliberate not according to the Major it was not.

Why were they there, There Observation post is on the high ground, so they can observe any violations to the UN accords regarding Lebanon and Israel. Unforutunaly the high ground was also where the Hezbullah had built up thier defenses, which would explain the many close calls the UN OP had had.

Which brings us to this piont, Why did the UN OP not just pull out ? Because the UN did not order or arrange to have them pulled out that is why.

Instead they continued to inform someone in the Israelis chain of command that there were numerous close calls and could they stop attacking that specific grid square.

But whom in the Israelis chain of command did they speak with, obviously not the Israelis forward observers, ( the guys calling in airsrikes, arty strikes making corrections "the guys on the ground"etc) but instead some higher formation which would have taken some time to relay this info down to the Israelis units on the ground. Which could have taken some time, as they were in the middle of conducting a massive amount of troops.

which leads to this question Did the UN request to the Isrealis to have the UN guys removed ? As this has happened many times before, That the Israelis goverment had warned the UN of the up coming attack and told the UN to remove it's observers, or the have gone into areas and forcable removed UN observers in order to ensure there safety.

The piont i'm making is these UN soldiers safety does not lie with the Israelis, Nor with our goverment, but with the UN chain of command. Recording violations to an accord that was clearly a mout piont at the time of the attack on the outpost.

I know it is difficult to understand unless you have experianced combat, and all the confusion it creates but incidents like these are common in a war zone, an accidents like these are bound to happen. a good example is the targeting of Canadian soldiers by an US F-16 in afgan.