Separatists can't claim 'Fete nationale'

[Riverwind]

St-Joseph-de-Beauce, Que. — Prime Minister Stephen Harper challenged Quebec sovereigntists' right to claim the Fete nationale holiday as their own political event.

"This St-Jean day reminds us all of the riches and greatness of the Quebec and francophone Canadian experience," he told a rural crowd Saturday. "This Fete nationale was being celebrated long before the Quiet Revolution (in the 1960s) — and even before Confederation."

I know this will go over well in English Canada. But what will French Quebequers think?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...y/National/home

[BHS]

I think this is a great tactical move by Harper. He acknowledges Quebec's history and distinctiveness while attacking the seperatists' attempts to frame that history and distinctiveness within their own political narative. To win the fight against seperatism requires a firm stance against seperatism on every issue. Harper has affirmed that the dreaded westerners are aware that Quebecers are not homogenous in their view on seperatism, which is an important point for non-seperatist Quebecers to hear.

[uOttawaMan]

This guy is slowly winning me over.

[seabee]

Harper has said exactly what every independentist leader has been saying for decades. And the festivities organisers have always gone out of their way to make sure everyone who wants to is included, whatever the race, color, religion, cloth, political alligeance, language.

The myth that the Québec Fête Nationale has been hijacked by "separatisss" is pure fabrication by hard-core anglo federalists to dissuade new immigrants from integrating into Québec society.

Independantists are grateful to Harper for that statement.

But Harper's refusal to recognise Québec as a nation has irked all Québécois, including Jean Charest:

link

He also made a short public speech in Beauce this afternoon, on the day of Fête Nationale; the media did point out, however, that there was not a single Québec flag in sight.

He is shooting in his own goals.

[Riverwind]

But Harper's refusal to recognise Québec as a nation has irked all Québécois, including Jean Charest:

The word 'nation' in English implies a separate country so there is no way any English speaking politician is going to call Quebec a 'nation'. The entire debate is a separatist ploy to try and embarrass Harper and other non-Francophone politicians - he was right to refuse to answer.

[August1991]

Harper has said exactly what every independentist leader has been saying for decades. And the festivities organisers have always gone out of their way to make sure everyone who wants to is included, whatever the race, color, religion, cloth, political alligeance, language.

The myth that the Québec Fête Nationale has been hijacked by "separatisss" is pure fabrication by hard-core anglo federalists to dissuade new immigrants from integrating into Québec society.

Independantists are grateful to Harper for that statement.

I more or less agree with seabee. The St-Jean-Baptiste holiday has gone through several permutation over the years. In its latest incarnation, it has been a holiday for kids with an emphasis on multicultural. I think this was part of the PQ's (largely unsuccessful) attempt to woo ethnic voters.

According to the PMO, Harper said:

“St-Jean-Baptiste Day is a reminder to all Canadians of the wealth and greatness of the Québécois experience and of La Francophonie Canadienne. June 24 is an opportunity to celebrate French language and culture, which have been protected through courage and devotion and are part of the heritage of all Canadians.

“This celebration calls to mind the fact that St-Jean-Baptiste Day was first celebrated in Québec well before Confederation. And soon we will be celebrating the 400th anniversary of the founding of Québec City and Canada.

PMO

This is simply not controversial in Quebec and I disagree that Harper's comments play into the hands of independantistes, as seabee suggested.

This is how CP reported his speech:

Dans un parc municipal où il n'y avait curieusement aucun drapeau du Québec, le chef conservateur a souligné que «la fierté québécoise n'est pas l'ennemi», ajoutant que «tous les Canadiens peuvent se réjouir de la fierté des Québécois d'avoir préservé leur identité unique au sein du Canada».

Il a plaidé à nouveau pour un fédéralisme d'ouverture à l'endroit de la province. «Je veux que le Québec puisse exprimer pleinement sa personnalité au sein de la famille canadienne».

Canoe

All fine, although you'll note the journalist's remark about flags.

But Harper's refusal to recognise Québec as a nation has irked all Québécois, including Jean Charest:

link

He also made a short public speech in Beauce this afternoon, on the day of Fête Nationale; the media did point out, however, that there was not a single Québec flag in sight.

He is shooting in his own goals.

Here I agree with seabee too. And this is the gaffe, if there was one.

Those damn flags, and that damned word nâââââtion.

To be precise, here's what Harper said (link above):

Vendredi, M. Harper et ses lieutenants du Québec avaient tous refusé de reconnaître formellement l'existence de la nation québécoise.

«C'est un débat de l'Assemblée nationale. Je reconnais que l'Assemblée nationale a adopté une telle déclaration, mais je ne sais pas, pour être franc, ce que cela représente du point de vue juridique», avait dit M. Harper.

I think it is hard for English-Canadians to understand the relevance of this. It is the kind of absurd debate that can go on for months. You'll note too that Harper didn't really deny the existence of a Quebec nation, he rather asked what's the import of its declaration (which rightly goes to the heart of the question, and drives some independantistes around the bend).

My take? Harper is an English Canadian, and he's Prime Minister of Canada. He can say the thing he said and Jean Charest and the others will say what they said. I think Harper has been well advised, he knows what he's doing and I'm sure he'll lose no sleep over this. Taken together, Harper made it plain that he understands Quebec is different but he won't be drawn into an empty debate about mere symbols.

In electoral terms, Harper and Quebec Tories are aiming for pragmatic voters tired of paying taxes. A potential Quebec Conservative voter has little time for "shovelling clouds". Ferchrissakes, Harper went to the Beauce.

[Moosehead_Rouge]

The federal government already already given "nation status" to the First Nations and Acadians...I fail to see why he cannot give it to the Québécois as well????

Simply put, I believe he has already given up on getting additional votes from Québec. He probably never dreamed he would get 10 in the first place so he is simply consolidating his base there.

He better be careful though, because when the Liberals get their act together, those 10 ridings will split the federalist vote with the Reds...

[Riverwind]

The federal government already already given "nation status" to the First Nations and Acadians...I fail to see why he cannot give it to the Québécois as well????

The word nation has several meanings in English. The most common is "a relatively large group of people organized under a single, usually independent government; a country". It can also mean "A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language; a nationality". Calling Aboriginals or Acadians 'nations' clearly falls under the second definition since these groups have no intention forming a seperate soveriegn state. Calling Quebec a 'nation' is a different story because many (particularily seperatists) are really talking about the first definition but pretend they are talking about the second definition. IOW, it is linguistic trick designed to make it sound like the Canada gov't to acknowledges Quebec as a seperate state. That is why Harper refuses to answer the question.

[August1991]

The federal government already already given "nation status" to the First Nations and Acadians...I fail to see why he cannot give it to the Québécois as well????

Given such an historical record, one wonders why anyone in Quebec would want a similar status.

[August1991]

This is like guys in the US south going on about their mothers. It can last for days:

"To say that Acadians are a nation, the aboriginals are nations, why not say Quebecers are a nation?'' Dion said in an interview Monday.

"As long as there are no legal consequences of the recognition, I have no problem with it.''

Dion, the sole Quebec candidate in the leadership race, criticized Prime Minister Stephen Harper's refusal over the weekend to utter the word nation while in Quebec to celebrate the province's Fete nationale.

"I don't know why he said `Vive la Fete nationale' and not that Quebecers are a nation. There is no problem to recognize Quebec as a nation as long as it's the sociological definition of the word and not the legal one,'' Dion said.

"It's what I would do. Why create a flap when you may avoid one?''

National Post

I actually thought Harper stepped around the dog doo-doo more elegantly than Dion did. Harper noted the flag but refused to wave it. Dion took it out and waved it. Red flag that is. Harper's gaffe was forgetting the blue flags, with the white flowers.

Sometimes you just have to laugh.

[jbg]

The federal government already already given "nation status" to the First Nations and Acadians...I fail to see why he cannot give it to the Québécois as well????

I want a nation. New York area bankruptcy lawyers with redheaded sons.

[Leafless]

This is like guys in the US south going on about their mothers. It can last for days:

"To say that Acadians are a nation, the aboriginals are nations, why not say Quebecers are a nation?'' Dion said in an interview Monday.

"As long as there are no legal consequences of the recognition, I have no problem with it.''

Dion, the sole Quebec candidate in the leadership race, criticized Prime Minister Stephen Harper's refusal over the weekend to utter the word nation while in Quebec to celebrate the province's Fete nationale.

"I don't know why he said `Vive la Fete nationale' and not that Quebecers are a nation. There is no problem to recognize Quebec as a nation as long as it's the sociological definition of the word and not the legal one,'' Dion said.

"It's what I would do. Why create a flap when you may avoid one?''

National Post

I actually thought Harper stepped around the dog doo-doo more elegantly than Dion did. Harper noted the flag but refused to wave it. Dion took it out and waved it. Red flag that is. Harper's gaffe was forgetting the blue flags, with the white flowers.

Sometimes you just have to laugh.

Dion also said: "Since when am I afraid to dismiss separatist ambiguity".

"The difference between the socialogical definition of a nation is very clear. Socialogical is a group that shares a sense of collective agreement. And the legal definiton is a state a member of the United Nations."

The whole problem with all this and one Dion did not recognize is many Quebecers see Quebec as a COUNTRY already.

The only difference between a Nation and a Country is that a country is the territory of a NATION with it's OWN GOVERNMENT and in the eyes of many Quebecers it's PROVINCIAL government is all that matters in Quebec and fulfils all the requirements of a country.

This is all very dangerous stuff and Harper was right to disassociate himself from the word nation as applied to Quebec.

[jbg]

St-Joseph-de-Beauce, Que. — Prime Minister Stephen Harper challenged Quebec sovereigntists' right to claim the Fete nationale holiday as their own political event.

"This St-Jean day reminds us all of the riches and greatness of the Quebec and francophone Canadian experience," he told a rural crowd Saturday. "This Fete nationale was being celebrated long before the Quiet Revolution (in the 1960s) — and even before Confederation."

I know this will go over well in English Canada. But what will French Quebequers think?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...y/National/home

If they want the benefits of being in Canada, such as transfer payments, they better d@mned well show national pride as Canadians.

This guy is slowly winning me over.

This is the Reagan playbook. It won the world over. No reason it shouldn't win Canada over.

[cybercoma]

But Harper's refusal to recognise Québec as a nation has irked all Québécois

Awww, that's too bad...

[Vineon]

If they want the benefits of being in Canada, such as transfer payments, they better d@mned well show national pride as Canadians.

Haven't yet heard of a single Québec souvereignist clamouring to maintain transfert payments after secession.

edit : I apologize for bumping a 6 years old thread for this little. Believe it or not, I was linked to it on FaceBook just now and did not realize it was this old.

Edited May 12, 2012 by Vineon

[-TSS-]

The difference in the votes in the 1995 referendum was indeed some 50,000 or so votes. I wonder how much do the separatists point out that in the intervening 17 years many of the voters of that referendum have died and many who were too young to vote at the time are adults now.

[Tilter]

The federal government already already given "nation status" to the First Nations and Acadians...I fail to see why he cannot give it to the Québécois as well????

Simply put, I believe he has already given up on getting additional votes from Québec. He probably never dreamed he would get 10 in the first place so he is simply consolidating his base there.

He better be careful though, because when the Liberals get their act together, those 10 ridings will split the federalist vote with the Reds...

Do you remember that that they long ago lost that long ago war &with it the right to claim Nation status

[g_bambino]

The word 'nation' in English implies a separate country...

Not necessarily. It can also mean a culturally distinctive group of people; Scots and Basques, for instance.

[PIK]

I more or less agree with seabee. The St-Jean-Baptiste holiday has gone through several permutation over the years. In its latest incarnation, it has been a holiday for kids with an emphasis on multicultural. I think this was part of the PQ's (largely unsuccessful) attempt to woo ethnic voters.

According to the PMO, Harper said:PMO

This is simply not controversial in Quebec and I disagree that Harper's comments play into the hands of independantistes, as seabee suggested.

This is how CP reported his speech:Canoe

All fine, although you'll note the journalist's remark about flags.

Here I agree with seabee too. And this is the gaffe, if there was one.

Those damn flags, and that damned word nâââââtion.

To be precise, here's what Harper said (link above):

I think it is hard for English-Canadians to understand the relevance of this. It is the kind of absurd debate that can go on for months. You'll note too that Harper didn't really deny the existence of a Quebec nation, he rather asked what's the import of its declaration (which rightly goes to the heart of the question, and drives some independantistes around the bend).

My take? Harper is an English Canadian, and he's Prime Minister of Canada. He can say the thing he said and Jean Charest and the others will say what they said. I think Harper has been well advised, he knows what he's doing and I'm sure he'll lose no sleep over this. Taken together, Harper made it plain that he understands Quebec is different but he won't be drawn into an empty debate about mere symbols.

In electoral terms, Harper and Quebec Tories are aiming for pragmatic voters tired of paying taxes. A potential Quebec Conservative voter has little time for "shovelling clouds". Ferchrissakes, Harper went to the Beauce.

This is why the MSM and the left hate him so much, he does not put up with the same old BS we have had to deal with over the decades. He is slowly bringing the country together, unlike mulcair who is trying to divide the country to win the next election.

[fellowtraveller]

Haven't yet heard of a single Québec souvereignist clamouring to maintain transfert payments after secession.

edit : I apologize for bumping a 6 years old thread for this little. Believe it or not, I was linked to it on FaceBook just now and did not realize it was this old.

I do recall sovereigntists assuming that they would still have preferred access to Canadian markets for dairy /cheese, as they do now.

Yeah, right.