Canadian Top 7 Torture Techniques vs Alleged Terrorists

[Teddy Ballgame]

- Like all left thinking Canadians, I was shocked and appalled to learn from the lawyers of the 17 alleged terrorists that these poor misunderstood lads have been subjected to "cruel and unusual punishment" or as several of their lawyers called it, torture!

- Surely, as The Red Tsar has noted, if we torture the terrorists, the terrorists win. (I'm not sure of the logic here since the corollary would be if we wine and dine and give in to the terrorists, we win but in any case since the Tsar says so, it must be right.)

- Among the specific examples of this savage torturous treatment by Canadian prison guards of these put upon freedom fighters are the following:

- Being locked in a small concrete cell without windows (instead of being housed in smart little prison cottages or townhouses with lots of windows and beautiful scenic views of The Rockies and the Pacific like some of our prisoners in BC).

- Having their meals slipped to them under a small slit in the door (as opposed to being able to order out for pizza or to barbeque steaks like many of our federal prisoners).

- Having the lights left on 24 hours a day (rather than having control of their own mood lights for romantic conjugal visits like some other federal prisoners).

- MOST DAMNING OF ALL, in at least one case having a guard touch a prisoner's ribs, knowing the prisoner was ticklish, and then having that guard "giggle a bit."

- WOW! I haven't heard of such heinous and heartless treatment since Hitler strung up his victims with piano wire after the July 44 plot to assassinate him or Saddam Insane cut off the hands and then shot his two sons in law because he thought they might be conspiring against him.

- And what is even worse, I hear that there are even more severe forms of torture awaiting these poor misunderstood and falsely maligned freedom fighters in the days ahead.

- Here for the information and mobilization of the usual useful idiots of the loony left are The Top 7 Canadian Torture Techniques vs The Alleged Terrorists:

7/ The only reading allowed the terrorists are the collected task forces' reports on the fiscal imbalance and the federal equalization formula.

6/ The only TV available is CBC reruns of Al Waxman as "The King of Kensington".

5/ The 24 hour muzak is a continuous tape of Celine Dion singing "My Heart Will Go On" en francaise.

4/ Instead of korans, the terrorists are required to pray using copies of Trudeau's Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

3/ The guards are constantly playing "pull my finger" pranks and sometimes hide whoopee cushions under the prayer mats.

2/ Instead of the low rent losers who initially represented them, the court assigns to their defence the two best criminal lawyers currently practising in Canada, Clayton Ruby and Edward Greenspan.

1/ For meals, only poutine smothered in gravy until their arteries harden!

Oh the horror! Oh the inhumanity!

Have I missed any other uniquely Canadian torture techniques here?

If so, please advise soonest! We must be vigilant in defending the rights and priveleges and needs and wants and whims and fancies of these innocent victims of Western liberal democracy.

[sharkman]

Teddy I am shocked! SHOCKED!! To think that they have to suffer under such a heavy torture master like the Canadian justice system.

Seriously, I believe they are just following the steps as laid out by their comrades in Gitmo and other places. Step one is always claim torture. All the better if you can work up some rug burns or the old snake bite. I'm sure the claims will get more outlandish as time goes by: The Koran was used as t.p., Mohammad cartoons were put up in every cell, blah, blah, blah. It won't fly this time, because Canada doesn't know how to even rough up terrorists let alone abuse them.

[killjoy]

the DEFENSE ATTORNEY claims they were tortured and only because he knows that the Canadian public will have a knee-jerk reaction to anything that remotely sounds American, ie: Gitmo.

Wake up k, people? We actually don’t have a lot of rights in this country. You don’t have to be told what your crime is and you can be held in jail, sometimes for 6 months or more before even being charged with a crime. It's ruined peoples lives. Makes me laugh when Canadians get all 'concerned' with the state of freedoms in the US.lol. That always cracks me up. I mean really fellow 'Canadians', I really shouldn't be the one telling you this. You shoulda allknown 10 minutes after you learned how to read and then gotten out the banners and signs and DONE SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Now we have to sit here and watch in amazement as people get all in a huff because these same 'rights' that we never had, these perps don't have.

So yeah you can be held perpetually. You can be denied a lawyer for a very long time and it's up to the Justice how much contact and in what manner that contact is between you and you're lawyer. Yep - in a room with lots of light or no light or whatever. Anyone who didn’t know that has been watching too much US T.V. (although we all really H8 ‘em:-) )

EVEN IF you're a 'poor marginalized' Muslim in a post-traumatic, post 9/11 world, this can happen to you. You don’t just have to be poor white trash or native anymore....lol (<---laugh of the damned.)

"Tortured". lol.

.

[GostHacked]

Killjoy said

Wake up k, people? We actually don’t have a lot of rights in this country. You don’t have to be told what your crime is and you can be held in jail, sometimes for 6 months or more before even being charged with a crime. It's ruined peoples lives. Makes me laugh when Canadians get all 'concerned' with the state of freedoms in the US.lol. That always cracks me up.

So we do not have alot of rights in this country? Is this what you are getting at? And yes it is starting to mimic what goes on south of the border. We have some people held on 'security certificates' indefinately. I would assume it is like a court ordered indefinate detention. But all criminals deserve due process. And if that is not being practiced, then we can lock up anyone for any reason.... slippery slope analogy here.

And remember in this country it is 'INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY' not the other way around. The media and even some politicians have 'accused and convicted' them of the crime. So in the public eye they are all guilty The Lawyer is doing what he can for his clients (like all damn scumbag lawyers do) Come on, making them walk like that? If you have them in chains (feet and hands) wtf can they do? That is just really (*^&%! stupid. I am in no way defending their actions, for there is a good chance (well 100% chance) each one will be hauled off to jail. Maybe the minors will get off.

This is a trial and they have to get due process before they are found guilty. But to everyone they are already guilty, pre-installed bias in the public (not to mention they are muslims which is already a mark against them for most people)

All this eventually affects your freedoms and rights. You to can end up there in jail for no reason and held indefinately. No to me that does not make us better than them. Be the better man, treat them like normal criminals so as to not shed light and give into this spiraled out of control 'war on terrorism' and give in to the fear that is terrorism. Treat them like a common criminal , do not bring attention to them, try them and lock them up if convicted. And just be done with it. This is nothing but a media circus and a trial to let us all know that "WE CAN BE NEXT"

OH and Teddy, comparing Supermax to a 5 Star resort is disingenuous at best. I am sure you can come up with some better comparisons than that.

[killjoy]

Blah blah.Blah.

You're post doesn't address mine at all. I never said the weren't INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. Not once.

I said they are subject to the exact same treatment all of us had to endure and until it plays into the anti-Bush crowd it doesn't hit the radar. Now all of a sudden everyone is mad about it. Why weren't you protesting before?

Why the fuck don’t you people pay attention to Canada instead of the US? I'll fucking tell you why, because you're a slave to fashion, and ironically America itself so bad that Canada never gets on your radar. You should've been protesting it long before it became an American related issue. lol. Pathetic. Seriously.

.Read the fuckin post next time twit.

lol:

WE CAN BE NEXT"

WE'VE BEEN THERE FOR A CENTURY+ ALREADY.

[Canuck E Stan]

Have I missed any other uniquely Canadian torture techniques here?

If so, please advise soonest! We must be vigilant in defending the rights and priveleges and needs and wants and whims and fancies of these innocent victims of Western liberal democracy.

Teddy,

Other tortures you forgot and should be included:

1. Having to read all of the Liberal "most important priorties list" from the last 12 years.All 700 pages of them.

2. Watching over and over again the instant replay of the goal that cost the Oilers the Cup.

3. Start a Muslim - in - Canada edition of Trivial Pursuit in your local mosque.

4. Go for a walk in Winnipeg without insect repellant.

5. Go for a walk in the disputed lands claim area in Caldonia,Ontario and take pictures.

6. Apply for unemployment in Calgary.

7. Put up English signs in the province of Quebec usung a truck with Ontario plates.

8. Starting a swingers club for Muslims.

9. Pick the most qualified candidate to be Liberal leader.

and the last one,

10.Make them go back to their homeland.

[GostHacked]

Killjoy. blah Killjoy blah Killjoy blah .....

Well the reason why everyone pays attention to the US, may be due to the fact that they got the ball rolling on the War on Terror. Maybe it has something to do with incading a couple countries relating to the War on Terror. Could be the fact thay they have GITMO, other prisons ect. Could be the fact that the media has pounded it into everyones head with the drums for the War On Terror. See a trend here?

I do read. And my only focus is not on the US, it is on what goes on in the UK, Canada, Us ect.. many other things I consider. Yeah it is a trend, the IN thing to do to get your hate on for the US. Utter tripe.

I have been paying attention, and have seen the changes. It just seems to be more subtley done than in the US. The media never really mentioned anything about it untill this huge case came into play. Wonder why that is?

Next time you choose to throw insults at me, send me a message, does not need to be on the main board. And I am hoping you can come up with something a little better than... oh I will just let it slide for now.

[killjoy]

Well the reason why everyone pays attention to the US, may be due to the fact that they got the ball rolling on the War on Terror.

lol.lol.lol.lol.I stopped reading right there. I mean why argue with a complete bullshitter like you? Yeah. Right. That's the reason everyone in Canada is suddenly ‘paying attention’ to the US. Yeah Canada's obsession with the US started with the War on Terror.

Besides, it doesnt change the fact that you never really addressed my post in the first place, and in fact completely misread it the first time, so you might as well be arguing with yourself because its not me.

.

[GostHacked]

I said they are subject to the exact same treatment all of us had to endure and until it plays into the anti-Bush crowd it doesn't hit the radar. Now all of a sudden everyone is mad about it. Why weren't you protesting before?

Find I will address your question to calm you down. This the first big anti-terrorism charge since the FLQ. So there may not have been a reason to really pay attention before. And I protest when anyone is being mistreated. Our media never went hog wild on anything like this in the last 6 years (as far as I can recall) and this is the first big huge bust that happened in Canada since the War on Terror was started. So blame the media as well for not bringing forth any other huge cases like this. We usually have to rely on the MSM to bring us these kinds of reports so we can react to.

And I did misread it. And I apologize. At least some can admit they are wrong. I am one of them. Don't expect that often. And actually you should read through the whole post before calling me a bullshitter .. alright? For a whole post sometimes can give the whole picture, instead of just hand picking things and then disregarding the rest. I guess my problem was I had a life before .. somewhat. Now that I am a pathetic looser with no life, I have alot of time to read and get informed and catch up on what is going on. And really, I was just not interested in how the world works before. Now I am. Because finnaly I know it can affect me.

So that is twice you just blah blah blah'd me, as well as insulted me. But again, I will let it slide.

[Johnny Utah]

Poor Terrorists..

Funny how the Media forgets these Terrorists wanted to kill Canadians and we should some how be concerned if their not being treated well?

[killjoy]

GostHacked.

K we can start again. But the problem with that is I don't intend to defend any Bush policies at all, I would simply argue that there is an unreasonable air of hysteria in this. It's going to be the most 'watched' trial in Canada.

I'm sorry but I'm not ready to get on the "OMG we're turning into the US" bandwagon that rolls around every couple of years based pretty much solely on what a 'high profile' defence lawyer says on camera in front of a courthouse and what the media postulates. They are being treated as criminals before the gavel comes down just like a lot of accused do. To the particulars of that, and this thread, I really don’t see what the US, or even the WOT has to do with it at all. A pedophile or murderer would be treated the same way if there was as much media. They have not been proven guilty but they're not going anywhere either. Then we all assume he's guilty. Happens everyday and sometimes they aren't. Why is this story so importatn? As I said, I can't help but think it has to do with our obsession with the US. Despite what the media says I don’t really think the WOT is relevant at all to how these guys are being treated, (maybe its relevant to how they got caught -- I could see that).

The rules haven't changed except for the rules and guidelines that found these guys. Subpoenas and Judge approval has followed every step.

Also as a Canadian this obsession with all things US has grated me all my life. Perhaps thats why I'm snappy about it. S'only the Internet. Yer cool. I'm cool

.

[kimmy]

I think that Killjoy is onto something.

Consider the amount of press covering every detail of this case, and the audience available to their lawyers. Consider that most Canadians' knowledge of legal procedings is based on watching episodes of American TV shows.

Canadians are receiving a lot more information than they're used to receiving about the process, and I think that most Canadians don't have the understanding of the specifics of the system to discern what is normal and what isn't. I doubt whether most Canadians have spent a sufficient amount of time in holding cells to know whether the conditions described by the lawyer are normal. Likewise, the evidence that's been made available to the press... I've heard some people demanding to see what evidence the police have for these arrests, and I've seen others claim that the police have already said too much and have biased potential jurors against the suspects.

I have seen suspicion and puzzlement cast on every bit of news that has come out following these arrests, and I think it is in large measure because people have not previously seen any arrests and proceedings receive this much coverage and therefore people don't have any frame of reference to compare it against.

-k

[GostHacked]

Killjoy

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/200...on-apology.html

A senior police officer in London has apologized to a Muslim family whose home was raided by 250 armed officers acting on "specific intelligence" about an alleged plot to use chemical weapons.

During the raid, police shot and wounded 20-year old Mohammed Abdul Kahar, then arrested him and his brother, Abdul Koyair, 20. No incriminating materials were found in the house and the two were eventually released without charge.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/5075352.stm

The reason I mention this is that I do not want to see this happening in Canada anytime soon. I am hoping we have better intelligence and processes to be sure that they have damn good evidence to prosecute the suspects. In the above case. There was none. Freedoms eroded right in front of the eye. Shoot first, ask questions later.

Now in contrast to the Canadian plotters, this is much more drastic and more brutal than the treatment the Canadian plotters are getting. That aside, Canada has her own standards, and we should stick to them. Be the better man. Sometimes you can play by the book, and win.

[Argus]

And remember in this country it is 'INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY' not the other way around. The media and even some politicians have 'accused and convicted' them of the crime.

They are not criminals nor accused of any crimes. They are illegal immigrants the government believes are dangerous to Canada. We should not be required to prove anything to them. We should simply expell them forthwith.

What you appear to be saying is that not only can we not expell them because, like, that might be dangerous to them, but we can't keep them in prison either no matter how dangerous they are unless the government is prepared to release all evidence and intelligence resources which suppliied that evidence, and, I suppose, make those intelligence assets subject to cross-examination in courts, before we can take proactive measures to keep people like this off the streets.

I think that's carrying liberalism too far. They're not Canadians. They are not our responsibility. We should send them home. And no, I don't particularly care what happens to them in their homeland.

[August1991]

Firsdt of all, Killjoy and GostHacked, would you guys knock off the "You're a bozo/You're a bigger bozo" type exchanges. You both make good points but you lose your argument in my eyes with these personal insults.

I've heard some people demanding to see what evidence the police have for these arrests, and I've seen others claim that the police have already said too much and have biased potential jurors against the suspects.

I've wondered the same. In the US, a DA must convince a grand jury that the evidence is sufficient to lay charges. In Canada, the police must convince a Crown Prosecuter. It seems to me that in Canada, the public needs to know that there is some substance to the charges. I didn't like the police show-and-tell press conference in this case, and I particularly didn't like the bag of fertilizer shown as a demo model but not initially explained as such. Is this serious? Will it bias potential jurors? Dunno.

I have seen suspicion and puzzlement cast on every bit of news that has come out following these arrests, and I think it is in large measure because people have not previously seen any arrests and proceedings receive this much coverage and therefore people don't have any frame of reference to compare it against.

Canada has had high profile court cases before. The FLQ investigations and trials, Paul Bernardo, Steven Truscott, mass biker gang trials.

-----

It is claimed here that ordinary Canadians rely on US TV shows for their information and hence don't know how Canada's judicial system deals with accused people. Well, frankly, anybody who relies on US TV shows for information about anything is going to be misinformed. The shows are supposed to be entertainment. Would anyone consider Gilligan's Island to be a survival training course?

Nevertheless, Canada suffers from a large pre-trial backlog that is getting worse. If someone is poor and can't meet conditions of bail, the person will be in prison a long time before getting their day in court. In addition, prison time before the court decision counts as double toward the sentence. We penalize the innocent and reward the guilty.

In this case, I happen to think the lawyers are taking their instructions from the accused and I would expect more complaints like this in the future. For lack of a better term, these kids and the older guy have not been "westernized". For them, Canada's judicial system is arbitrary but flimsy power. Ironically, they may learn more about western values going through this court process than they ever learned in Ontario's public school system.

[kimmy]

It is claimed here that ordinary Canadians rely on US TV shows for their information and hence don't know how Canada's judicial system deals with accused people. Well, frankly, anybody who relies on US TV shows for information about anything is going to be misinformed. The shows are supposed to be entertainment. Would anyone consider Gilligan's Island to be a survival training course?

Of course not. I'm not advocating the educational value of US TV shows. However, I still suspect that for many people, that's the basis of their knowledge (or lack thereof) of how things are supposed to work.

When I drop by Babble or En Masse to see what the folks there are saying, I'm always amazed at how many of these people are apparently experts on subjects like entrapment, and jury selection, and evidentiary rules and arrest warrants and bail and publication bans and on and on. Where did these people learn all of this? Because frankly I have a hard time convincing myself that most of them finished high-school, let alone law-school.

What's your interpretation of how so many Canadians apparently believe they have in-depth knowledge of the law, August?

Youngsters like myself (and most people you'll bump into on the internet) are far too young to have any recollection of the FLQ trials. Th biker trial received little coverage in English Canada, I have no idea who Stephen Truscott is, and it was the lurid details of the Bernardo trial, not the legal procedings, that people took note of. I don't believe that any of this provided people with an actual basis for an informed opinion on arrest and pre-trial matters in regard to "the Toronto 17" as some are now calling them.

-kimmy

[Michael Hardner]

Very good points, Kimmy. I think that many people get their ideas about Canada's justice system from US television.

Killjoy made some good points, but unfortunately he wrapped them in a veil of insult and derision.

[GostHacked]

Argus

They are not criminals nor accused of any crimes. They are illegal immigrants the government believes are dangerous to Canada. We should not be required to prove anything to them. We should simply expell them forthwith.

You have heard that they are Canadian Citrizens right? Legal immigrants? Important to remember that.

August For the record, I have yet to make a 'personal insult on this board'. And it was stopped before you even posted.

[killjoy]

Firsdt of all, Killjoy and GostHacked, would you guys knock off the "You're a bozo/You're a bigger bozo" type exchanges.

Huh? We already resolved that quite peacefully ourselves, so coming along now long after we lgihtened up is really just you getting on your high horse. And don't tell me what to do Montreal.

Killjoy made some good points, but unfortunately he wrapped them in a veil of insult and derision.

Get over yerselves. I dont post like that any more than the rest of you, in fact it's really only a tiny fraction of my posts that I go off the handle, so what? Get off your high horses you seem to think you can ride simply because you're not posting with insult or venom - at the moment yourselves.

I admit when I'm wrong and I do go the extra step to try and bury greviences or put out the flame.

.

[Teddy Ballgame]

Teddy,

Other tortures you forgot and should be included:

4. Go for a walk in Winnipeg without insect repellant.

5. Go for a walk in the disputed lands claim area in Caldonia,Ontario and take pictures.

9. Pick the most qualified candidate to be Liberal leader.

- CANUCK ... Yes, somehow I missed those uniquely Canadian torture techniques. Not only did I miss those but I am now informed that there are still more anti-terrorist torture techniques favoured by Canada's correctional service. Oh when will this savagery end? Myself, I blame it all on Bush and of course Harper and lets not forget the nefarious neocon policies of Reagan and Thatcher not to mention Churchill and Borden!

- In any case, here are 7 MORE CANADIAN ANTI-TERRORIST TORTURE TECHNIQUES:

7/ Phone service from the prison to Islamabad is sometimes "crackly and indistinct".

6/ Fellow inmates monopolize the TV, watching jiggle shows instead of Al-Jazeera or the CBC.

5/ One guard once made eye contact with one of the prisoners, causing feelings of persecution and objectivication in the poor freedome fighter.

4/ The muezzin giving the daily call to prayer in the prison is occasionally off-key.

3/ The chick-pea to tahina ratio in the prison cafeteria hummus is ever so slightly "OFF".

2/ The prison chaplain didn't have enough copies of "Protocols of The Elders of Zion" on his last visit, forcing some inmates to have to share. and

1/ Oppressive facility rules forbid visitors to bring bombs with them.

How can we allow this inhuman torture to continue? Vote Liberal next time and they will put a stop to this barbaric behaviour by prison guards. Vote NDP and they will not only stop this torture, they'll organize a terrorists' union to strike for better prison conditions for Islamo-fascist terrorists. Their first union demand will be for management to order a lock out! The new union will be known as the National Union of Terrorists and Sympathizers or NUTS for short.

[Canuck E Stan]

The new union will be known as the National Union of Terrorists and Sympathizers or NUTS for short.

Teddy,

Let's not forget this country is bilingual, therefore the name will have to be

Nouvelle Organisation / National Union of Terrorists and Sympathizers or NO/ NUTS for short

[Argus]

del

[Argus]

Argus

They are not criminals nor accused of any crimes. They are illegal immigrants the government believes are dangerous to Canada. We should not be required to prove anything to them. We should simply expell them forthwith.

You have heard that they are Canadian Citrizens right? Legal immigrants? Important to remember that.

I wasn't referring to the 17 punks arrested for planning terrorist activities, but the 5 people being held under security certificates. The prelude to your statement - which I was replying to was

We have some people held on 'security certificates' indefinately. I would assume it is like a court ordered indefinate detention. But all criminals deserve due process. And if that is not being practiced, then we can lock up anyone for any reason.... slippery slope analogy here.

And remember in this country it is 'INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY' not the other way around.

So I guess I got a little mixed up about which group of Muslim twits you were referring to.

[killjoy]

-1: If they hate it so much why not just jump over the fence?

.

[PocketRocket]

- MOST DAMNING OF ALL, in at least one case having a guard touch a prisoner's ribs, knowing the prisoner was ticklish, and then having that guard "giggle a bit."

First of all, it was not the guard who giggled, but the prisoner.

Second, the "ticklishness" was not the abuse issue.

The issue was what followed.......

David Kolinsky, the attorney for Zakaria Amara, 20, said his client was abused by a guard after giggling because he felt ticklish while being searched.

Kolinsky said the guard pinned his client to the ground and drilled his knuckle into the man’s cheek, asking, “Is this funny?”

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/13274656/

I realize this thread is meant to be satirical, but even in satire it helps if you have your facts straight.