I Dont Care Where Imigrants Come From

[JMH]

This is not a racial discussion! The overwhelming majority-sorry ALL of the terrorist plots/acts of mension these days are conducted by Muslims. Wake-up.

Canada has no inherent legal structure to deal with Terrorists........period. Canada is an open door to Terrorists.......period.

Canada, has no buisness whatsoever allowing potential threats into the country at the expence of Canadian family safety.

There are tens of millions of non-muslim people of all colors and creeds that would give their lives to become a Canadian. People that would provide insight and skills that would benefit all of Canada. No excuses....No Bullshit. Integrated into the worlds most progressive society.

At this point in time, there is no reason to allow Muslims into Canada.........and every reason not to. If you disagree, I'm afraid your mind is defective.

We are now "on the mat" and this is no time for Canadian apathy, ignorance or stupidity.

Wake-up.

[geoffrey]

Believe it or not, Canada has a similar law to the Patriot act in the U.S., that was quietly passed by the Liberals during Chretien's time. We do have laws, we do have the ability to detain when 100% evidence isn't there but we know damn well they are guilty. In fact, we have.

The problem in this country isn't the law neccessarily, its two things.

a) Funding of our police and intelligence agencies (and inability to hire new educated recruits for both)

and,

B ) Our media that ties their panties in a knot everytime a trial of terrorists or other people happens. It's already begun with the media questioning the arrests and how the police aren't releasing all the info. The media is largly to blame.

[betsy]

B ) Our media that ties their panties in a knot everytime a trial of terrorists or other people happens. It's already begun with the media questioning the arrests and how the police aren't releasing all the info. The media is largly to blame.

I couldn't believe my ears a couple of days ago at MDuffy...when all he could think and worry about was the possible violation of rights when he learned that the suspects were denied to get together to do their communal prayers! Sorry for the crass comment.....but he makes me wanna puke!

[Nocrap]

B ) Our media that ties their panties in a knot everytime a trial of terrorists or other people happens. It's already begun with the media questioning the arrests and how the police aren't releasing all the info. The media is largly to blame.

I couldn't believe my ears a couple of days ago at MDuffy...when all he could think and worry about was the possible violation of rights when he learned that the suspects were denied to get together to do their communal prayers! Sorry for the crass comment.....but he makes me wanna puke!

Would you feel the same way if the young men were Christians and denied access to a Priest or Minister? We need to respect their basic human rights and absolutely go by the book on this one. We can't allow these young men to become martyrs.

They need to have a fair trial and be punished to the full extent of the law if found guilty.

We also need to stress that this was a ciminal act and not allow it to be tied into any political agenda. This only validates the actions of these young men.

There is no validation for a planned mass murder, unless of course, you call it WAR!!!

[SamStranger]

Im sorry to say, but I do not trust the Radical Muslims devoted to Islam taking over the world. Common! This is God' world, not Allahs or Muhammeds. Im sick of being called an Infadel. If im an Infadel, then why do we not live in sand castles?

[scribblet]

They do need, and will get a fair trial. Not allowing them to pray (or prey) together is not a denial of rights, its a sensible precaution. They are at liberty to pray as much as they like, with their Korans, individually.

[mikedavid00]

At this point in time, there is no reason to allow Muslims into Canada.........and every reason not to. If you disagree, I'm afraid your mind is defective.

We are now "on the mat" and this is no time for Canadian apathy, ignorance or stupidity.

Wake-up.

I agree.

There is no reason to let them into our country. They are not needed at all - fact.

What amazes me, is how people here carry the famous "Canadian Sense Of Entitlement'. People actually feel that it's others people God given RIGHT to come to Canada. It's just a failing policitcal policy. That's all it is.

We don't need them here at all. They are just here because they are a voting block.

[mikedavid00]

They do need, and will get a fair trial. Not allowing them to pray (or prey) together is not a denial of rights, its a sensible precaution. They are at liberty to pray as much as they like, with their Korans, individually.

Again, the famous Canadian 'Sense Of Entitlement'.

Lets concentrate on the rights of terrorists awaiting trail.

Oh I'm sorry, they are alleged terrorists and the police planted all the evidence and framed them. I fogot.

[newbie]

At this point in time, there is no reason to allow Muslims into Canada.........and every reason not to. If you disagree, I'm afraid your mind is defective.

I clearly hope you were having a bad day when you wrote this. Otherwise it is one of the most racist statements I've read yet on this forum.

[mikedavid00]

Believe it or not, Canada has a similar law to the Patriot act in the U.S., that was quietly passed by the Liberals during Chretien's time. We do have laws, we do have the ability to detain when 100% evidence isn't there but we know damn well they are guilty. In fact, we have.

The problem in this country isn't the law neccessarily, its two things.

a) Funding of our police and intelligence agencies (and inability to hire new educated recruits for both)

and,

B ) Our media that ties their panties in a knot everytime a trial of terrorists or other people happens. It's already begun with the media questioning the arrests and how the police aren't releasing all the info. The media is largly to blame.

You are funny.

So the problems with our country is lack of funding and the media.

Wow.. what they say about left wing loonies really are true.

The problems in our country is:

1) The mass flooding of needless immigrants driving down the value of our labour market and draining our services.

2) High taxes

3) Elite controlled society that do not represent the common people, but only special interest groups (CRTC, Judges, Policitians, CBC).

Many here are a product of brainwashing from the lattar.

[mikedavid00]

At this point in time, there is no reason to allow Muslims into Canada.........and every reason not to. If you disagree, I'm afraid your mind is defective.

I clearly hope you were having a bad day when you wrote this. Otherwise it is one of the most racist statements I've read yet on this forum.

Who says he's racist? He is stereotyping that's all and just stating his opinion.

Is it UNREASONABLE to question muslims coming into our coutnry considering that a poll came out today with half of all Canadians saying that CSIS and police should start racially profiling Muslims.

Do you think the majority of muslims aren't racist or stereo type you? the 'white person'?

Lol...

[Argus]

At this point in time, there is no reason to allow Muslims into Canada.........and every reason not to. If you disagree, I'm afraid your mind is defective.

I clearly hope you were having a bad day when you wrote this. Otherwise it is one of the most racist statements I've read yet on this forum.

On the contrary. It's a perfectly logical statement. Do bear in mind that Muslims are not a race, so you can hardly be racist towards them.

Our immigration system should be designed purely to benefit Canada - no other reason. Bringing in Muslims, as opposed to others, appear to cause more trouble than it's worth. Better to bring in others with less troublesome religious and cultural beliefs who are, as a group, more interested in assimilation.

As one example. If we had not brought Muslims here, we would not now be facing all these problems. The Americans would not be getting ready to institute strict passport controls at the border, and we would still be able to drive back and forth fairly easily, without two hour waits. How many thousands and thousands of jobs are going to be lost when the US requires passports at the border? How many businesses are going to go under?

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Argus,

Our immigration system should be designed purely to benefit Canada - no other reason.

Well, this line of thinking demands that our unemployment rates should dictate immigration numbers, till they both end up at zero. Not a terrible policy, but some might think it a tad 'cold-hearted,', or 'inhuman'.

Bringing in Muslims, as opposed to others, appear to cause more trouble than it's worth. Better to bring in others with less troublesome religious and cultural beliefs who are, as a group, more interested in assimilation.

A piffle of a half-measure, declare war upon them and be done with it. Or, at least have the knackers to challenge them to a theological debate. (I don't mean specifically you, I actually concur with what I believe is your intent: Challenging Islam to 'put up or shut up')

[geoffrey]

You are funny.

So the problems with our country is lack of funding and the media.

Wow.. what they say about left wing loonies really are true.

The problems in our country is:

1) The mass flooding of needless immigrants driving down the value of our labour market and draining our services.

2) High taxes

3) Elite controlled society that do not represent the common people, but only special interest groups (CRTC, Judges, Policitians, CBC).

Many here are a product of brainwashing from the lattar.

1) I'm far from left leaning in any way, shape or form, I prefer pragmatist, though most called me conservative.

2) Boohoo, if you can't do a job as good as an immigrant, tough. As someone who did own a business (I'm out of it now boys and girls) I want to hire the best people for the job at the best rate. I don't care if they are black, white, pink or purple, as long as they make my business stronger. With all the advantages we have over immigrants in our education systems, your a sad case if you can't compete.

3) Agreed our taxes are way too high, even if they are low compared to the rest of the West, don't see how high taxes really affect terrorism though... enlighten me please.

4) Did I not make my media comment around the elitist attitude and how they'd rather complain about their lack of right to common prayer than to talk about real issues like how to jail these people ASAP? I don't mind elite controlled society, generally common people are ignorant... not neccessarily elite I guess I should say, but informed. Most Canadians don't know anything about economics or taxation, so why should I let them decide the tax laws that affect me? Populism is rule by the completely ill-informed, it's the one massive whole in Manning's idealism.

--

Argus, your right that Muslims aren't a race. But it doesn't make common sense to just dislike all Muslims, I'm skeptical of many, but I know most are good intentioned. I do take a second look at the young Muslim kid with the bulky backpack and the IPOD in his hand on the c-train when we are passing in front of the Calgary Petroleum Club... but I don't think blanket statements or blanket policies against Muslims is the answer.

They can be productive, they can add to society. The cancer does need to be removed from their population though, and we are seeing that with arrests such as those in Toronto.

Your claim that if we didn't bring Muslims here we wouldn't have problems isn't a logically sound argument. If we didn't bring European settlers here, we wouldn't have acid rain or traffic jams on the 401. Kind of ridiculous no? If you re-worded to say if we were stricter in who we let in from certain populations since the advent of Islamic extremism, then I'd agree... but saying Muslims are the source of our problems? That's a tough row to hoe in a logical, sound argument.

--

Again, the famous Canadian 'Sense Of Entitlement'.

Lets concentrate on the rights of terrorists awaiting trail.

Oh I'm sorry, they are alleged terrorists and the police planted all the evidence and framed them. I fogot.

What the hell are you talking about Mike? Do you believe in rights, or not? No one is saying the police planted evidence or anything, I'm sure as hell they are guilty. But when we start wishing away rights to get political expediant outcomes, that's just showing that the terrorists have won.

Give them a fair trial, it's the only way our society remains crediable.

I don't believe they should be able to have a common prayer session though, that is a security risk, you can't have people standing trial communicating to get their stories in line. Bring in their family to pray with them or something, but the hell with them all being together.

--

[newbie]

At this point in time, there is no reason to allow Muslims into Canada.........and every reason not to. If you disagree, I'm afraid your mind is defective.

I clearly hope you were having a bad day when you wrote this. Otherwise it is one of the most racist statements I've read yet on this forum.

On the contrary. It's a perfectly logical statement. Do bear in mind that Muslims are not a race, so you can hardly be racist towards them.

How silly of me. My bad. I should have said extremely bigoted.

[Leafless]

geoffrey

You wrote:

"Argus, your right that Muslims aren't a race. But it doesn't make common sense to just dislike all Muslims, I'm skeptical of many, but I know most are good intentioned. I do take a second look at the young Muslim kid with the bulky backpack and the IPOD in his hand on the c-train when we are passing in front of the Calgary Petroleum Club... but I don't think blanket statements or blanket policies against Muslims is the answer.

They can be productive, they can add to society. The cancer does need to be removed from their population though, and we are seeing that with arrests such as those in Toronto."

It's not a question of disliking Muslims it's a question of Muslims disliking basically White Christians.

You would have to admit Islam is a problamatic religion and Canadians should not be put in a dangerous positon by our own government nor in the postion to train or educate or civilize Muslims to be good dedicated Canadians.

[scribblet]

The leaders of six Islamic groups have asked Prime Minister Harper to convene a summit on youth extremism in the wake of the recent arrests. Karl Nickner, director of the Canadian Council on American-Islamic Relations, said his and other Muslim organizations, want to be proactive in challenging extremism. The groups would also like Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty and Toronto Mayor David Miller to attend the proposed meeting. NDP Leader Jack Layton agreed that a formal dialogues is required to address the sense of marginalization experienced by Muslim youth : Toronto Star page A10 "

They would also like us to pay for all of this. I'm not surprised at Jacko using saying Muslim youth are experiencing marginalization, but this particular group of wannabe terorrists came from different backgrounds and were not (to my knowledge) poor. If they are marginalized it is only because the families choose to stay and be apart from the ROC.

A number of years ago, hubby and I were involved in Cubs, they had a good group from all walks of life. (this was Toronto after all). It didn't take long for the muslims to split off and request their own Cub pack, apart from the rest. They got it, and chose not to be part of the mainstream meeting on another night. This is only one incident, but how much of this 'marginalization' is of their own choosing?

[mikedavid00]

Most Canadians don't know anything about economics or taxation, so why should I let them decide the tax laws that affect me? Populism is rule by the completely ill-informed, it's the one massive whole in Manning's idealism.

And you call yourself conservative?

You are left wing when you believe that poeple can't think for themselves and it's not a Canadians first right to our own jobs.

In the US, you do not immigrate over (for the most part), if you aren't being sponsored in from a company to work. Not only that, there has to be a declared shortage of these workers. The reason is because jobs in the US go to the US first. ONLY THEN, you move the us and *temporarily* work there.

Canada's version: If you have a degree and speak english, you qualify enough points to just 'land here' with no job prospects and get your perminant residency. Hence 36% all ALL immigrants after 5 years STILL living in poverty. Then with the few jobs that there are, Canadians have to compete with tons of immigrants all hungry and with better *paper* qualifications.

Usually employers will choose the paper qualifications becuase they think they are being clever and hiring the best. Maybe that's why you went out of business?

I recommend you read some articles on 'functional literacy' or 'workplace literacy'.

http://www.worldlit.ca/facts.html

This is not an issue in the US because they are only allowed in to work and then leave. Citizenship is a very long and hard road with odds against you.

(yes i know the mexican labor workers are a whole other story).

[geoffrey]

Most Canadians don't know anything about economics or taxation, so why should I let them decide the tax laws that affect me? Populism is rule by the completely ill-informed, it's the one massive whole in Manning's idealism.

And you call yourself conservative?

You are left wing when you believe that poeple can't think for themselves and it's not a Canadians first right to our own jobs.

In the US, you do not immigrate over (for the most part), if you aren't being sponsored in from a company to work. Not only that, there has to be a declared shortage of these workers. The reason is because jobs in the US go to the US first. ONLY THEN, you move the us and *temporarily* work there.

Canada's version: If you have a degree and speak english, you qualify enough points to just 'land here' with no job prospects and get your perminant residency. Hence 36% all ALL immigrants after 5 years STILL living in poverty. Then with the few jobs that there are, Canadians have to compete with tons of immigrants all hungry and with better *paper* qualifications.

Usually employers will choose the paper qualifications becuase they think they are being clever and hiring the best. Maybe that's why you went out of business?

I recommend you read some articles on 'functional literacy' or 'workplace literacy'.

http://www.worldlit.ca/facts.html

This is not an issue in the US because they are only allowed in to work and then leave. Citizenship is a very long and hard road with odds against you.

(yes i know the mexican labor workers are a whole other story).

That's ridiculous. Firsly, conservatism is based on elitist maintenance of the social order, keeping the poor in their place, doing the labours of the rich, and co-operation between these classes in order to further society. This new populism aspect had no place in conservativism in Canada until the reform movement, the old PC party was very elitist, and also very successful. Support of populism isn't a core belief of conservatism. You shouldn't run with that idea either, because in Canada, there are more people against us conservatives than for us.

I didn't hire any recent immigrants, but I would have if they presented both function and workplace literacy skills on top of their qualifications. I didn't go out of business either, I sold and made a considerable profit on the sale. I have no belief in hiring Canadians first or buying Canadian products first or anything like that. You sound like Lou Dobbs up on his stump, defending America. Let's wake up and realise that free trade and globalisation are here and national borders are really becoming more meaningless in economics and business.

[Drea]

We should do with the muslims what we did with the Japanese.

In the interest of national (and international) security we should no longer allow muslims to enter the country as immigrants nor as refugees. The muslims that are already here should be monitored daily.

It has now been proven that a person born and raised in Canada as a muslim is just as dangerous as a muslim immigrant -- both have been taught to hate.

I'm actually much more sickened by the "Canadian" muslim who grew up with all the benefits of being in a western society and still he/she finds a reason to "hate".

Ban them all I say.

So call me a bigot. Pfffffft. Who cares as long as my family and my country are safe from crazies.

No "moderate" muslim will ever be able to convince me that they are not radical and won't strap on a suicide bomb -- given the opportunity all of them are terrorists!

[mikedavid00]

So call me a bigot. Pfffffft. Who cares as long as my family and my country are safe from crazies.

Wow a proud Canadian. Unbelievable. It's amazing that fellow Candians are against you and your attitude and are more concerned with whether they are being allowed to pray together in jail or not.

I really hope Harper after winning and a majority does something about our immigration crisis.

[Argus]

I clearly hope you were having a bad day when you wrote this. Otherwise it is one of the most racist statements I've read yet on this forum.

On the contrary. It's a perfectly logical statement. Do bear in mind that Muslims are not a race, so you can hardly be racist towards them.

How silly of me. My bad. I should have said extremely bigoted.

No, you're still wrong. Bigotry is intollerence, at heart. And unless your definition of "tolerance" means acceptance and respect for any type of attitude or behaviour, however much it goes against our own interests and values, then bigotry doesn 't work.

You could try to use the word "prejudice" instead, for that is more apt, because prejudice can be based on almost any characteristic or trait. On the other hand, I would say that, as Dennis Miller remarked, I'm not "pre-judging" Muslims as a people, I'm judging them.

And that judgement is that, as a class of potential immigrants, they are more troublesome than most any other class or group of potential immigrants, and should thus be avoided.

[Argus]

Our immigration system should be designed purely to benefit Canada - no other reason.

Well, this line of thinking demands that our unemployment rates should dictate immigration numbers, till they both end up at zero. Not a terrible policy, but some might think it a tad 'cold-hearted,', or 'inhuman'.

Since when was self-interest declared an inhuman trait? Most nations on Earth do not have a vast immigration system and industry designed to bring masses of foreigners in. Are they all inhuman? We have no demonstrated need for the numbers of immigrants we're bringing in, and much demonstrated disruption is the consequence of it. The only solution is to limit immigration to what we specifically require, and bring in the immigrants who are least likely to cause disruption while being productive members of society.

Bringing in Muslims, as opposed to others, appear to cause more trouble than it's worth. Better to bring in others with less troublesome religious and cultural beliefs who are, as a group, more interested in assimilation.

A piffle of a half-measure, declare war upon them and be done with it. Or, at least have the knackers to challenge them to a theological debate. (I don't mean specifically you, I actually concur with what I believe is your intent: Challenging Islam to 'put up or shut up')

There was an interesting item in today's Citizen. Not sure if it's available without registration but it's certainly worth reading. It takes patience, however, as it's fairly lengthy by internet standards.

One particularly relevent part:

Numerous commentators have suggested that the "spiritual emptiness" of western society fosters Islamist hatred. The alleged Toronto terrorists, like the London bombers, are the children of Muslims who for whatever reason ended up in living in the land of bilad al-kufr, the land of unbelief. These children are caught between their parents' old society and the new society with its forbidden temptations. They are taught that the smorgasbord of western sexual mores and the glittering array of consumer goods are, in Mr. Cooper's words, "a Satanic temptation."

Thus, western-born Muslims straddle a fault line. Their parents and community leaders want them to act according to the traditions of an Islamic society in which they have never lived. At the same time, they confront a secular society replete with all the lures of a hedonistic ethos they have been taught to despise. The consequence for some is a resentment that turns into a "neurotic zealotry," to use Arab-American scholar Fouad Ajami's phrase, that seeks the destruction of the society from which they feel alienated.

Rethinking Multiculturalism

If this kind of dissafection can be seen as reasonably commonplace given their parents determination that they adher to outmoded religious beliefs and old-world cultures then we can expect the sorts of behaviour demonstrated by those arrested to continue indefinitely unless someone can reconcile to them the differences between what they and their religious community feel are bedrock values and what they see in the world around them. Otherwise they will continue to feel alienated from society and continue to feel that society is evil and goes against all of their beliefs. And I frankly don't see that happening. However, the further they get away from their old-world origines then presumably the further away from those values they will get. Banning new immigrants who continue to espouse the kind of anti-westernisms we see as commonplace now will aid in bringing about that distance.

Another relevent quote:

So how do you respond to people who regard concepts of freedom, democracy, liberalism and tolerance as anathema? What do you do with those who cynically exploit principles of free expression and human rights to undermine the political order that sustains those principles?

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Argus,

An excellent post.

Thus, western-born Muslims straddle a fault line. Their parents and community leaders want them to act according to the traditions of an Islamic society in which they have never lived. At the same time, they confront a secular society replete with all the lures of a hedonistic ethos they have been taught to despise. The consequence for some is a resentment that turns into a "neurotic zealotry," to use Arab-American scholar Fouad Ajami's phrase, that seeks the destruction of the society from which they feel alienated.

This rings true, and is one of the few articles that seems to take a pragmatic view, one that both the 'left and right' should heed. However, it raises the question as to whether or not the Koran demands the destruction of 'the alienating society'. Jews (orthodox and other devout sects or individuals) that try to keep 'kashrut' lifestyles would likely not find it easy in a western, secular society, but it can be done. The same goes for Muslims, for there are 'halal' butchers and restaurants, mosques, etc. and limitless opportunities to create 'righteous lifestyles'.

[August1991]

Argus, that article is long and after alot of verbiage, it arrives at this:

So how do you respond to people who regard concepts of freedom, democracy, liberalism and tolerance as anathema? What do you do with those who cynically exploit principles of free expression and human rights to undermine the political order that sustains those principles?

Well, maybe it is time to stop being so accommodating. Maybe it is time to stop tolerating intolerance. Maybe it's time to reassert liberalism for what it once was -- a fighting creed.

Obviously, most Muslims want nothing to do with the "neurotic zealots" in their communities. Indeed, the RCMP and CSIS likely relied on members of the Muslim community in their investigations. Nonetheless, while not all Muslims are terrorists, all the terrorists of recent vintage have been Muslim. Clearly, there is a disconnection between the tenets of Islam, as interpreted by the Islamists, and the principles of western liberalism.

Geez, that's a really helpful conclusion. My overwhelming sense is to say, "Duh."

All of these explanations and theories somehow play into the game of blaming something or someone else.

----

I think it's useful to have a discussion about immigration, and about multiculturalism. But in this modern world, the idea that we can stop people from coming to Canada is not on. And ultimately, these people are going to fit into Canadian society in their own way.