Michael Hardner Posted January 4 Report Posted January 4 1 hour ago, Radiorum said: This is a copy of something I posted in the Maduro thread, that might provide some insight in this thread. It's been submitted that we're in a "might makes right" world now. That may be, but the superpowers won't be able to stay on top without a modicum of principles and goodwill. The American people themselves supported foreign adventures when they were either: -In support of American values -Self-defense Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
robosmith Posted January 4 Author Report Posted January 4 3 hours ago, West said: It'll make the Libbies commit who run that court system. Thats the same area where they keep overturning the planes returning the drug smugglers and who tried to imprison him over looking at voter fraud You haven't even read the indictments of Trump. Get busy, the indictment testimony video is over 8 hours long. At least then you'll be informed enough to stop saying STUPID shit like the bolded. Trump did a lot more than "looking at voter fraud." Duh Quote
BeaverFever Posted January 4 Report Posted January 4 9 hours ago, User said: Sematics. If we have the rights to the oil, saying it is our oil is the same as saying it is our oil. You DON’T have the rights to the oil. The government does. Private companies US or otherwise only have a LICENSE which is granted or rescinded at the government’s pleasure. That’s how it works everywhere. It’s been obvious from day1 that seizing Venezuela’s oil was Trump’s true motivation as we have all been saying for a long time now. The whole “narco/terrorist” gibberish was just a flimsy excuse. It’s Trump’s version of “Saddam’s WMD and Al-Qaeda links” lies that the previous Republican president cooked up when he wanted to take over an oil-rich country. I mean he just pardoned a MAGA-connected major “narco-terrorist” who had only served 1 year in prison FFS. And now the real shot-show begins when Trump and his incompetent gang of hacks, nutjobs and grifters try to “run” a country twice the area of Iraq and nearly as many people when they can’t even run a lemonade stand. Venezuela has one of the most heavily armed civilian populations on the planet with one of the highest rates of private gun ownership (which disproves the Republican lie about gun ownership preventing dictators). Furthermore Chavez and Maduro had organized and trained “popular militias” for Total Defence for just such an occasion. Not to mention the western part of the country is home to several guerrilla groups, So if/when the Trump-created power vacuum results in civil war, lawlessness regional destabilization, humanitarian and refugee crisis, etc. it will all be Trump’s doing 1 Quote
BeaverFever Posted January 4 Report Posted January 4 10 hours ago, robosmith said: Trump blames Nicolás Maduro for the arrival of hundreds of thousands of Venezuelan migrants in the US. But of course now that Trump has destabilized Venezuela there might be a lot more migrants fleeing that country so there’s a good chance the orange idi@t has mad his problems worse. 1 Quote
West Posted January 4 Report Posted January 4 1 hour ago, robosmith said: You haven't even read the indictments of Trump. Get busy, the indictment testimony video is over 8 hours long. At least then you'll be informed enough to stop saying STUPID shit like the bolded. Trump did a lot more than "looking at voter fraud." Duh Odds are looking like your boy Jack Smith will be sharing a cell with Maduro by the mid terms 1 Quote
BeaverFever Posted January 4 Report Posted January 4 2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said: It's been submitted that we're in a "might makes right" world now. That may be, but the superpowers won't be able to stay on top without a modicum of principles and goodwill. The American people themselves supported foreign adventures when they were either: -In support of American values -Self-defense But the American people (at least Republicans and a good portion of the swing vote) have repeatedly shown that they are gullible and willing to believe any flimsy argument that claims “self-defence” or “American values”. Consider: The annexation of Hawaii The annexation of Texas and the American southwest p USS Maine Gulf of Tonkin (a Democrat lie, admittedly but Republicans were all for it while Democrat camps were divided) Saddam’s alleged WMD and al-qaeda link lies I think the timing of Trump pardoning a major “narco-terrorist” just as he’s using “narco-terrorism” as the excuse for his attack on Venezuela is precisely to demonstrate that its not about values or the law and the rules-based order is now replaced with the “might makes right” order For example in Putin’s Russia and Orban’s Hungary it’s not sufficient for the ruling kleptocracy to pretend to be law-abiding in public and commit their crimes in secret They deliberately commit their crimes and frauds in plain view of the public because they want the public to KNOW the leaders and those they patronize are above the law and therefore they should abandon any expectation of justice. They also want the public to know that they have to participate in the corruption and patronage system with bribes, favours etc if they need any form of justice or civil service So conspicuous abuses of power, telling implausible lies that they know the public will know are lies, conspicuous flaunting of laws and norms, these things has always been part of Trump’s agenda and are deliberate and part of the design. 1 Quote
herbie Posted January 4 Report Posted January 4 3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said: It's been submitted that we're in a "might makes right" world now. And that applies to allies and enemies alike. Bully Boy says JUMP, you better jump NOW. 1 Quote
User Posted January 4 Report Posted January 4 1 hour ago, BeaverFever said: You DON’T have the rights to the oil. The government does. Private companies US or otherwise only have a LICENSE which is granted or rescinded at the government’s pleasure. That’s how it works everywhere. Again, more semantics. The point remains that US Oil Companies had leases and assets tied to developing and producing on those leases that Venezuela seized from them, and to this day, has not fully paid compensation for doing so. I mean, no crap a country can do what it wants, just like Trump can go down there and arrest Maduro and take him. See how that works! 1 hour ago, BeaverFever said: It’s been obvious from day1 that seizing Venezuela’s oil was Trump’s true motivation as we have all been saying for a long time now. Imagine a world where there can be overlapping motivations! No... Besides, it is yours and other leftists stupid generalizations, dumber than Trumps lingo on "our oil", when you sit here reducing things to Trump wanting to steal their oil or take it. 1 hour ago, BeaverFever said: Venezuela has one of the most heavily armed civilian populations on the planet with one of the highest rates of private gun ownership (which disproves the Republican lie about gun ownership preventing dictators). Do you just mindlessly repeat whatever BS you hear? Maduro had been destroying private arms and disarming citizens since 2012. Venezuela bans private gun ownership https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-18288430 "Hugo Chavez's government says the ultimate aim is to disarm all civilians" Quote
User Posted January 4 Report Posted January 4 4 hours ago, Michael Hardner said: It's been submitted that we're in a "might makes right" world now. Now? It has ALWAYS been this way. Every aspect of even western civilization is held together by this basic concept. Who enforces the laws? Police - with force. What you want is a world where the good people have the might and are willing to use it to stop the evil people. Quote
User Posted January 4 Report Posted January 4 2 hours ago, BeaverFever said: But of course now that Trump has destabilized Venezuela there might be a lot more migrants fleeing that country so there’s a good chance the orange idi@t has mad his problems worse. Except we actually did something to seriously secure the border and are enforcing immigration laws much more now. Venezuela was already a destabilized shit hole, but yeah, it is going to be sooooo much worse now. It was a tropical paradise of peace and prosperity until big bad Trump came along. Quote
CdnFox Posted January 4 Report Posted January 4 13 hours ago, robosmith said: The US never owned the oil in Venezuela. US oil companies HAD a license to pump an sell Venezuelan oil for a SHARE of the profits. Now Trump has ordered the illegal invasion and capture of Maduro, and LIES that we are taking back OUR OIL. Today an illegal coup in Venezuela, but where next? ... The Guardian https://www.theguardian.com › commentisfree › jan › il... 3 hours ago — The world will be anxious, and rightly so. For a man so bent on a peace prize, Trump appears to revel in conflict, writes Simon Tisdall. There is absolutely nothing in that rather lengthy story about him claiming he's taking back their oil. In fact the story specifically says that oil doesn't seem to be his motive, but it's personal dislike of the guy and a return to the Monroe doctorine Once again you post evidence that you yourself are wrong 🙄🙄🙄🙄 Do you even read this stuff before you post it Quote "That which doesn't kill me... Had better start running."
CdnFox Posted January 4 Report Posted January 4 2 hours ago, BeaverFever said: You DON’T have the rights to the oil. The government does. Private companies US or otherwise only have a LICENSE which is granted or rescinded at the government’s pleasure. That’s how it works everywhere. No it wasn't lawfully rescinded and the equipment was seized. There's no doubt that that's an active theft Some reparations were eventually paid but it's always been said it was nowhere near enough I think saying it's their oil is probably a gross exaggeration but it's not wrong either Quote "That which doesn't kill me... Had better start running."
Scott75 Posted January 4 Report Posted January 4 48 minutes ago, CdnFox said: No it wasn't lawfully rescinded and the equipment was seized. There's no doubt that that's an active theft Some reparations were eventually paid but it's always been said it was nowhere near enough I think saying it's their oil is probably a gross exaggeration but it's not wrong either I think your bit about gross exageration is probably the most accurate. I'd also be interested in knowing why Venezuela rescinded the deal. Quote
User Posted January 4 Report Posted January 4 31 minutes ago, Scott75 said: I think your bit about gross exageration is probably the most accurate. I'd also be interested in knowing why Venezuela rescinded the deal. It was part of a long ongoing effort to nationalize their oil industry completely. Quote
Scott75 Posted January 4 Report Posted January 4 5 hours ago, User said: It was part of a long ongoing effort to nationalize their oil industry completely. Alright. Well, I generally support countries trying to nationalize their own resources, since they are the ones who live there. Anyway, I decided to take a look at an artciel from a journalist I trust. She definitely wasn't pleased with what happened: 14 Points on Trump Kidnap of Venezuelan President Maduro on the Sixth Anniversary of the Trump Assassination of Haj Qassem | Vanessa Beeley Quote
BeaverFever Posted January 4 Report Posted January 4 9 hours ago, CdnFox said: No it wasn't lawfully rescinded and the equipment was seized. There's no doubt that that's an active theft Some reparations were eventually paid but it's always been said it was nowhere near enough I think saying it's their oil is probably a gross exaggeration but it's not wrong either What “law” are you citing? The government of Venezuela IS the law in Venezuela and they passed a law to expropriate those assets. When these corporations decide to do business in these banana republics things like that are among the calculated risks they take with eyes wide open. Furthermore the appropriate remedy for the aggrieved corporations is to demand compensation of a set dollar amount for the lost assets, not for Trump to claim that all the oil in Venezuela belongs to America exclusively for American benefit and for all eternity. 1 Quote
BeaverFever Posted January 4 Report Posted January 4 10 hours ago, User said: Except we actually did something to seriously secure the border and are enforcing immigration laws much more now. . If thousands of migrants turn into millions of refugees coming by land and sea you’ll see how insecure your border still is. 10 hours ago, User said: Venezuela was already a destabilized shit hole, but yeah, it is going to be sooooo much worse now. It was a tropical paradise of peace and prosperity until big bad Trump came along. You must be really young if you don’t intuitively understand what happens when a repressive dictatorship is suddenly toppled with no obvious successor and a lawless power vacuum ensues. History offers plenty of examples, why don’t you start by. looking up Iraq circa 2003. Quote
BeaverFever Posted January 4 Report Posted January 4 10 hours ago, User said: Again, more semantics. The point remains that US Oil Companies had leases and assets tied to developing and producing on those leases that Venezuela seized from them, and to this day, has not fully paid compensation for doing so. That’s part of the calculated risk those companies knowingly accepted when they decided to do business there, it’s not like this hasn’t happened before - Cuba, Iran for example. There was an earlier Venezuelan unilateral reform back in the 1940s, followed by Saudi Arabia and so on. The story of oil is basically the story of western corporations initially exploiting poor dictatorships and then the poor dictatorships regaining control of their resources through various unilateral reforms, hardball maneuvers and expropriations. These oil companies know what they’re getting into, the risk is the cost of doing business. And at any rate the oil companies’ grievance only means AT MOST that the companies are owed compensation of x dollars, not that all the oil in Venezuela rightfully belongs to them for their exclusive benefit for all eternity as Trump is suggesting. 10 hours ago, User said: I mean, no crap a country can do what it wants, just like Trump can go down there and arrest Maduro and take him. See how that works! Yes Maduro and Trump and all authoritarians enjoy the “might makes right” philosophy instead of the “rules based international order” that’s obvious. But LEGALLY SPEAKING every sovereign country has the right to make and amend its own laws on things like resource extraction. You may not like what Venezuela did but its not illegal in any sense OTOH Countries do not have any inherent legal right under any international law to invade and arrest the heads of state of other countries 10 hours ago, User said: Imagine a world where there can be overlapping motivations! No... Besides, it is yours and other leftists stupid generalizations, dumber than Trumps lingo on "our oil", when you sit here reducing things to Trump wanting to steal their oil or take it. There are overlapping motivations. As described in Trump’s National Security Strategy, the “western hemisphere” belongs to USA and therefore: 1) they will not tolerate regimes they don’t like in their sphere of influence, period 2) the hemisphere’s natural resources are primarily for American benefit and USA alone gets to decide who their vassals can and can’t trade with 3)under no circumstances will any vassals be allowed to have friendly relations with rivals such as China “Narco-terrorism” was always just a hoax like Saddam’s WMD In fact there are a lot of parallels between the “Project 2025” ideologues behind the NSS and the Venezuela mission.to cement American dominance of the “western hemisphere” and the “Project for a New American Century” ideologues who dreamed up the Iraq invasion years before 9/11 to cement American dominance of the world with what they called “benevolent hegemony” 11 hours ago, User said: Do you just mindlessly repeat whatever BS you hear? Maduro had been destroying private arms and disarming citizens since 2012. November but you clearly mindlessly repeat BS 1) If private gun ownership really keeps dictators at bay then how did they manage to seize power and supposedly confiscate all those guns? 2) The fact is that it’s one thing to pass a law, it’s another thing entirely to try and confiscate millions of guns that are already in widespread circulation especially in third world countries where government is generally corrupt and ineffective at the best of times. The fact remains that black market gun ownership and circulation in Venezuela remains very high and commonplace. And as I mentioned, Venezuela had created several citizen militia and paramilitary groups which they’ve also armed, trained and supported to various degrees as well. Plus there are the various guerrilla organizations and separatists out in the jungle with their own agendas as well. This is not anywhere close to being over. The violence and chaos about to unfold hasn’t begun yet. Just remember, you break it, you buy it. Quote
robosmith Posted January 4 Author Report Posted January 4 13 hours ago, West said: Odds are looking like your boy Jack Smith will be sharing a cell with Maduro by the mid terms According you YOU, Canuck. That's why the RepubliCONS finally released the testimony on take out the trash day (Friday). It's NOT because they are proud of what they "uncovered." You can't even cite a crime for your BULLSHIT claim. Like Comey and James, there is no crime here which can be prosecuted. Duh Quote
robosmith Posted January 4 Author Report Posted January 4 11 hours ago, CdnFox said: I think saying it's their oil is probably a gross exaggeration but it's not wrong either "gross exaggeration" is just euphemism for LIE, by MAGAts Quote
CdnFox Posted January 4 Report Posted January 4 4 hours ago, Scott75 said: Alright. Well, I generally support countries trying to nationalize their own resources, since they are the ones who live there. Anyway, I decided to take a look at an artciel from a journalist I trust. She definitely wasn't pleased with what happened: 14 Points on Trump Kidnap of Venezuelan President Maduro on the Sixth Anniversary of the Trump Assassination of Haj Qassem | Vanessa Beeley I suspect you only trust her because you agree with her bias. And it takes two sentences to realize there's an incredible amount of bias there. It's like asking Hitler if he thinks Judaism is a good religion or not. At this point in time trump hasn't done anything that most other presidents haven't done and they're certainly no end of precedent for what he did. I do believe that he probably was motivated by oil at least in part although two things can be true. But as to whether or not it's a good idea only time will tell. Regime change has worked both well and very badly for the united states. A particular concern here is that the US has no boots on the ground the way it did in Panama so controlling the cartels who are now running amok and who sound like they're prepared to fight may not be all that easy. Quote "That which doesn't kill me... Had better start running."
Michael Hardner Posted January 4 Report Posted January 4 12 hours ago, User said: What you want is a world where the good people have the might and are willing to use it to stop the evil people. It doesn't matter who they're against, might makes right. The thing about that principle I find confusing, is if someone buys into it.... It can be used to define any action or relationship they take part in. It says that the entity decides for themselves without external directive. I'm just exploring this because it's kind of a new idea to me, for it to be openly adopted as a Principal of international relations. Then again, maybe this isn't open. I haven't made my mind up about a lot of aspects of this 1 Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
West Posted January 4 Report Posted January 4 13 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: It doesn't matter who they're against, might makes right. The thing about that principle I find confusing, is if someone buys into it.... It can be used to define any action or relationship they take part in. It says that the entity decides for themselves without external directive. I'm just exploring this because it's kind of a new idea to me, for it to be openly adopted as a Principal of international relations. Then again, maybe this isn't open. I haven't made my mind up about a lot of aspects of this If someone is threatening and severely harming your family, you would intervene Michael. Why should narcoterrorists have more rights than anyone else? Why can they kill and floor our emergency rooms with the consequences of their harmful products without any sort of recourse? 1 hour ago, robosmith said: According you YOU, Canuck. That's why the RepubliCONS finally released the testimony on take out the trash day (Friday). It's NOT because they are proud of what they "uncovered." You can't even cite a crime for your BULLSHIT claim. Like Comey and James, there is no crime here which can be prosecuted. Duh Conspiracy against rights.. duh Quote
robosmith Posted January 4 Author Report Posted January 4 23 minutes ago, West said: Conspiracy against rights.. duh ^This is NOT a criminal statute. But of course it's the ONLY BULLSHIT you got, as usual. And of course you STILL have not listened to, nor read, the testimony. There's a reason RepubliCONS held the hearing in private (so they could launder it). Duh Quote
User Posted January 4 Report Posted January 4 43 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: It doesn't matter who they're against, might makes right. The thing about that principle I find confusing, is if someone buys into it.... It can be used to define any action or relationship they take part in. It says that the entity decides for themselves without external directive. I'm just exploring this because it's kind of a new idea to me, for it to be openly adopted as a Principal of international relations. Then again, maybe this isn't open. I haven't made my mind up about a lot of aspects of this Once again, the world existed before all this spite and hatred of Trump. NATO decided might makes right in Libya back in 2011. Canada was a part of that. The list goes on. The world timeline and history didn’t begin the day Trump took office. Quote
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