carepov Posted October 7, 2025 Report Posted October 7, 2025 The proposed peace plan resolves all the issues that pro-Palestinian protesters claimed to be demanding: -An end to the war -No more bombing -No more children being killed -No more genocide (even though there was no genocide -Massive influx of aid -Process of IDF withdrawal -No ethnic cleansing of Palestinians (side note: ethnic cleansing of Jews is OK) -No annexation of land in Gaza The plan is supported by 80% of Israelis Most Gazans The leaders of Turkey, Egypt, Jordan, Indonesia, Malaysia, Saudis, Qatar and Hamas leaders there, UAE So what happened to "Ceasefire Now"? Why are western protests still anti-israel and not pro-peace? I have an idea, but want to hear yours first? Quote
Michael Hardner Posted October 7, 2025 Report Posted October 7, 2025 I'm not as interested in the protests, which are organized by interest groups who have their own goals. Basically, they just want to maximize outcomes in their favour. I'm more interested in the true centrist zeitgeist. Or liberals even. They are very quiet on this, and my assumption is it's because: - they are cautiously optimistic - they are pessimistic Or - they are hoping the US administration doesn't secure a political win with this agreement I really hope it's not the last one, but it may well be. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Army Guy Posted October 7, 2025 Report Posted October 7, 2025 Most of the protestors could not even begin to tell you why they are protesting other than it is a very popular thing to do....and it's very popular to throw shade on Israel now a days ....these protestors are the soft under belly of western society, they have not experienced terrorism or war...to know any better or which side to protest or cheer on....so because Palestine has a massive propaganda machine capable of reaching across the globe, these soft "gullible" people have chosen to cheer on terrorists............that and they have nothing better to do with their time than to gather in like minded groups because it is more of a social group than a anything else...what would they do if the war stopped, who would they throw shade at, what would they march for....it is what these people do, professional protestors...the issue does not matter....they will all go back to climate or abortion, BLM....something or anything... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
SpankyMcFarland Posted October 7, 2025 Report Posted October 7, 2025 (edited) I’m an older, secular social democrat, so don’t ask me to provide any insight into what a fanatical theocratic group like Hamas are thinking or what young westerners are thinking either but just looking at this purely as a hostage or peace negotiation it is very unusual, let’s say. One side has had no input into the deal on the table and is negotiating with people who actually tried to assassinate them a few weeks ago! In addition, Hamas are being asked to make the big concession now - releasing the hostages - and then must sit and wait to see whether their deadly enemies keep their side of the bargain down the road. Any reasonable person wants it to succeed but the framework is very vague and I’m sceptical Netanyahu will stick to it once he has the hostages back. Given how weak America is when dealing with Israel one could not hope for much enforcement of the terms from Washington. Edited October 7, 2025 by SpankyMcFarland Quote ‘How small we make our worlds. Gather them in, tighten them up into little castles of fear.’
Army Guy Posted October 7, 2025 Report Posted October 7, 2025 14 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said: I’m an older, secular social democrat, so don’t ask me to provide any insight into what a fanatical theocratic group like Hamas are thinking or what young westerners are thinking either but just looking at this purely as a hostage or peace negotiation it is very unusual, let’s say. One side has had no input into the deal on the table and is negotiating with people who actually tried to assassinate them a few weeks ago! In addition, Hamas are being asked to make the big concession now - releasing the hostages - and then must sit and wait to see whether their deadly enemies keep their side of the bargain down the road. Any reasonable person wants it to succeed but the framework is very vague and I’m sceptical Netanyahu will stick to it once he has the hostages back. Given how weak America is when dealing with Israel one could not hope for much enforcement of the terms from Washington. Hamas has input into these talks, if they don't like it they can say no deal....as they have said in the last 2 years....so this proposal is built around those two years of talks....it does not matter who the author is, but rather if both sides agree... As for trying to assassinate them, well the Hamas leadership did plan and approve of the Oct 7 attacks knowing the consequences.....and the Middle eastern countries that let this terrorist groups leadership hide in their countries have had to known it was not a good idea, that Israel has attacked it's enemies where ever they may be....regardless of consequences... Here is the concessions they have to make release the hostages, disarm and not have anything to do with running the country.....or watch as Gaza is torn down building by building...do you think they thought Israel would just shrug off the killing of 1200 plus of it people. plus all the hostages...There are no cessions just consequence's left.... And one would have to be an id1ot to think Israel is going to forget any of this, regardless of the peace plan ....or the people who planned and executed it....they are going to be hunted for the rest of their lives.... We are also id1ots to think this is going to end with Palestinian people handing out teddy bears and flowers along the Israel border... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
herbie Posted October 7, 2025 Report Posted October 7, 2025 (edited) So do tell me if someone proposed a peace plan to you that you disarm, give up any advantage you have and hand over control of your country to achieve peace, would you f*cking leap to agree? Would that be Trump's recipe for Ukraine too? I think the media beholden to American Glory and obedience to the Orange Overlord; they're entirely projecting false optimism on the public. I will go on history and past events, go out on a limb and say Hamas will at best drag talks on endlessly while they attempt to rebuild or reject it outright within weeks. The only real solution will come from the Palestinian population who are currently deprived by occupation, refusal of state recognition, a crippled UN Security Council and Hamas control of any ability to do sweet f*ck all about their own situation. Edited October 7, 2025 by herbie Quote
User Posted October 7, 2025 Report Posted October 7, 2025 2 minutes ago, herbie said: So do tell me if someone proposed a peace plan to you that you disarm, give up any advantage you have and hand over control of your country to achieve peace, would you f*cking leap to agree? Would that be Trump's recipe for Ukraine too? I think the media beholden to American Glory and obedience to the Orange Overlord they're entirely projecting false optimism on the public. I will go on history and past events, go out on a limb and say Hamas will at best drag talks on endlessly while they attempt to rebuild or reject it outright within weeks. The only real solution will come from the Palestinian population who are currently deprived by occupation, refusal of state recognition, a crippled UN Security Council and Hamas control of any ability to do sweet f*ck all about their own situation. Short version: You want Hamas to stay armed so they can continue to terrorize Israel for all of eternity until Israel no longer exists. Quote
suds Posted October 7, 2025 Report Posted October 7, 2025 These aren't really peace talks or a deal. It's an ultimatum. Or at the very least, an offer any sane people can't refuse. The Israeli objective from day 1, was to destroy Hamas in all ways, shapes, or forms. Basically, if Hamas isn't removed, Israel gets the blessings of the U.S. to go in and finish the job they set out to do. 1 Quote
Army Guy Posted October 7, 2025 Report Posted October 7, 2025 (edited) 30 minutes ago, herbie said: So do tell me if someone proposed a peace plan to you that you disarm, give up any advantage you have and hand over control of your country to achieve peace, would you f*cking leap to agree? Would that be Trump's recipe for Ukraine too? I think the media beholden to American Glory and obedience to the Orange Overlord; they're entirely projecting false optimism on the public. I will go on history and past events, go out on a limb and say Hamas will at best drag talks on endlessly while they attempt to rebuild or reject it outright within weeks. The only real solution will come from the Palestinian population who are currently deprived by occupation, refusal of state recognition, a crippled UN Security Council and Hamas control of any ability to do sweet f*ck all about their own situation. Yes that's exactly what I'm proposing....its either that or extermination...and finding out there is not 72 virgins at the end of the game, but rather a shallow hole with some dirt on top of you...UN has already said 67,000 people killed, and over 70 % of all the homes and shelters destroyed....If Israel does not get it's terms , it will continue to destroy the remaining infra structure, and kills thousands of Palestinian in the process....And Hamas does not give a rats a$$ about it own people they are concerned about their very own survival....And your right if no terms are accepted then Palestinian's will eventually dictate who remains in power...and they are close to deciding now... Trump will force this to a head, by providing more military gear into Israel ....and while the world gasps....that is all they will do....sure there will be protests, none of which will make any difference to Israel or Palestine....Maybe the NDP should elect a Palestinian women for their next leader...would fit in with their new look ... As for the UN it has never been effective at stopping wars....it is to corrupt, outdated, ineffective, has no power to project .....it is a chamber that any world leader can go and hear his or her own voice...nothing more...I'm surprised trump has not kicked them out of New York Edited October 7, 2025 by Army Guy 1 Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
suds Posted October 7, 2025 Report Posted October 7, 2025 Why aren't western pro-palestinian protesters supporting the peace talks? Because a good deal of them are likely pro-Hamas as well. Or at least those who are calling for the destruction of the Jewish state. Quote
suds Posted October 7, 2025 Report Posted October 7, 2025 1 hour ago, herbie said: The only real solution will come from the Palestinian population I agree, and that's the way it should be. But Hamas has got to go, and then the real negotiations and the rebuilding can begin. Quote
herbie Posted October 7, 2025 Report Posted October 7, 2025 1 hour ago, User said: Short version: You want Hamas to stay armed so they can continue to terrorize Israel for all of eternity until Israel no longer exists. F*cking wrongist mor0n once again imagines what is written rather than read. 1 hour ago, suds said: These aren't really peace talks or a deal. It's an ultimatum Exactly. Misrepresented in the same way Trump's trade demands are portrayed as negotiations, Quote
SpankyMcFarland Posted October 7, 2025 Report Posted October 7, 2025 (edited) 2 hours ago, Army Guy said: Hamas has input into these talks, if they don't like it they can say no deal....as they have said in the last 2 years....so this proposal is built around those two years of talks....it does not matter who the author is, but rather if both sides agree... As for trying to assassinate them, well the Hamas leadership did plan and approve of the Oct 7 attacks knowing the consequences.....and the Middle eastern countries that let this terrorist groups leadership hide in their countries have had to known it was not a good idea, that Israel has attacked it's enemies where ever they may be....regardless of consequences... Here is the concessions they have to make release the hostages, disarm and not have anything to do with running the country.....or watch as Gaza is torn down building by building...do you think they thought Israel would just shrug off the killing of 1200 plus of it people. plus all the hostages...There are no cessions just consequence's left.... And one would have to be an id1ot to think Israel is going to forget any of this, regardless of the peace plan ....or the people who planned and executed it....they are going to be hunted for the rest of their lives.... We are also id1ots to think this is going to end with Palestinian people handing out teddy bears and flowers along the Israel border... I’m simply talking about process and why it might be difficult for a deal to be made and sustained. In any conflict there’s a lot of bitterness on both sides but there are certain confidence-building measures that increase the chance of a favourable outcome. For example, in the Northern Ireland scenario, the IRA had tried to kill many British ministers over the years with a few successes and nearly got Mrs. Thatcher herself in 1984. The British reciprocated, esp. through their paramilitary proxies in the province, but neither side went after negotiating teams. In fact, the British took great pains to keep the IRA and Sinn Féin together and ‘land’ them as one group in the peace negotiations. One danger in the current situation is that the ‘hotel guys’ outside Gaza may want a deal more than the surviving young fighters in the Strip and one could end up with a split. The best cure for terrorism is the prospect of better alternatives for young men and that will be a fair while happening in Gaza and the West Bank by the looks of things. Edited October 7, 2025 by SpankyMcFarland Quote ‘How small we make our worlds. Gather them in, tighten them up into little castles of fear.’
User Posted October 7, 2025 Report Posted October 7, 2025 34 minutes ago, herbie said: F*cking wrongist mor0n once again imagines what is written rather than read. It was pretty clear what you were saying. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted October 7, 2025 Report Posted October 7, 2025 8 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said: I’m simply talking about process and why it might be difficult for a deal to be made and sustained. In any conflict there’s a lot of bitterness on both sides but there are certain confidence-building measures that increase the chance of a favourable outcome. For example, in the Northern Ireland scenario, the IRA had tried to kill many British ministers over the years with a few successes and nearly got Mrs. Thatcher herself in 1984. The British reciprocated, esp. through their paramilitary proxies in the province, but neither side went after negotiating teams. In fact, the British took great pains to keep the IRA and Sinn Féin together and ‘land’ them as one group in the peace negotiations. One danger in the current situation is that the ‘hotel guys’ outside Gaza may want a deal more than the surviving young fighters in the Strip and one could end up with a split. The best cure for terrorism is the prospect of better alternatives for young men and that will be a fair while happening in Gaza and the West Bank by the looks of things. Your post makes sense, but didn't I read something about outsiders facilitating it? Tony Blair? If you put others besides American, Hamas or Israeli interests at the top of the pyramid that would help wouldn't it? Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
SpankyMcFarland Posted October 7, 2025 Report Posted October 7, 2025 2 hours ago, Army Guy said: Hamas has input into these talks, if they don't like it they can say no deal... They had input into Trump’s proposal? No matter how awful Hamas are, they are the other side in this conflict. Peninsular Arabs and Turks can’t credibly speak for them. Quote ‘How small we make our worlds. Gather them in, tighten them up into little castles of fear.’
SpankyMcFarland Posted October 7, 2025 Report Posted October 7, 2025 7 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: Your post makes sense, but didn't I read something about outsiders facilitating it? Tony Blair? If you put others besides American, Hamas or Israeli interests at the top of the pyramid that would help wouldn't it? Anybody but Tony Blair! His former finance minister, Gordon Brown, who generally works for much less dosh would be a far more credible pick. Quote ‘How small we make our worlds. Gather them in, tighten them up into little castles of fear.’
Michael Hardner Posted October 7, 2025 Report Posted October 7, 2025 32 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said: Anybody but Tony Blair! His former finance minister, Gordon Brown, who generally works for much less dosh would be a far more credible pick. That's fine, but don't you think adding foreigners.... Foreigners.... And let's be specific about how reasonable they are.... European foreigners.... Is a protective measure? Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
suds Posted October 7, 2025 Report Posted October 7, 2025 1 hour ago, herbie said: Exactly. Misrepresented in the same way Trump's trade demands are portrayed as negotiations, The peace plan consists of 20 parts of which only about half were referred to in the OP. For example, there's no mention of Hamas, the hostages, the International Stabilization Force, policing, verification of demilitarization by independent monitors, and border security. If you read the whole plan, you will find that there is very little misrepresentation. You can find it here...... https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c70155nked7ohttps://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c70155nked7o Quote
suds Posted October 7, 2025 Report Posted October 7, 2025 1 hour ago, SpankyMcFarland said: The best cure for terrorism is the prospect of better alternatives for young men and that will be a fair while happening in Gaza and the West Bank by the looks of things. A great deal of Gaza has been leveled to parking lot status and has to be rebuilt and will be done so with foreign funding. Meaning.... lots of jobs, and hopefully with an International Stabilization Force in the making, a lot less corruption. No more crooked billionaires and millionaires running things. If the Palestinians can set their hate aside, they have at least a chance for a promising future. IMO Quote
Army Guy Posted October 8, 2025 Report Posted October 8, 2025 2 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said: They had input into Trump’s proposal? No matter how awful Hamas are, they are the other side in this conflict. Peninsular Arabs and Turks can’t credibly speak for them. Your under the assumption that anyone speaks for Hamas....when they deny or approve the terms it will be Hamas doing all of that....not the authors of the plan, or Ultimatum... 3 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said: I’m simply talking about process and why it might be difficult for a deal to be made and sustained. In any conflict there’s a lot of bitterness on both sides but there are certain confidence-building measures that increase the chance of a favourable outcome. For example, in the Northern Ireland scenario, the IRA had tried to kill many British ministers over the years with a few successes and nearly got Mrs. Thatcher herself in 1984. The British reciprocated, esp. through their paramilitary proxies in the province, but neither side went after negotiating teams. In fact, the British took great pains to keep the IRA and Sinn Féin together and ‘land’ them as one group in the peace negotiations. One danger in the current situation is that the ‘hotel guys’ outside Gaza may want a deal more than the surviving young fighters in the Strip and one could end up with a split. The best cure for terrorism is the prospect of better alternatives for young men and that will be a fair while happening in Gaza and the West Bank by the looks of things. Most of the globe has dumped the fault of all this at the feet of Israel, like they held Palestinians back their own government could have used that aid funding for something positive...instead they used it to fuel hate...on both sides of the border....Any new investments into the area would be a waste of time and effort...including the rebuilding of Gaza....That funding should be used to find them a new place to go to...and leave Gaza as it is today a reminder to the rest of the world that terrorism is not how people solve issues...It is going to take many generations to kill that hate.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
carepov Posted October 8, 2025 Author Report Posted October 8, 2025 15 hours ago, Michael Hardner said: I'm not as interested in the protests, which are organized by interest groups who have their own goals. Basically, they just want to maximize outcomes in their favour. I'm more interested in the true centrist zeitgeist. Or liberals even. They are very quiet on this, and my assumption is it's because: - they are cautiously optimistic - they are pessimistic Or - they are hoping the US administration doesn't secure a political win with this agreement I really hope it's not the last one, but it may well be. What about the most vocal public voices calling for "ceasefire now", I'm thinking Mehdi Hassan, Owen Jones, Bassam Yousef, Norman Finklestein, Dave Smith, Aaron Mate, Amnesty International and other human rights groups. Where are their voices now? Are they calling for the end of the war and and and to the suffering? 1 Quote
SpankyMcFarland Posted October 8, 2025 Report Posted October 8, 2025 2 hours ago, Army Guy said: Your under the assumption that anyone speaks for Hamas....when they deny or approve the terms it will be Hamas doing all of that....not the authors of the plan, or Ultimatum... Most of the globe has dumped the fault of all this at the feet of Israel, like they held Palestinians back their own government could have used that aid funding for something positive...instead they used it to fuel hate...on both sides of the border....Any new investments into the area would be a waste of time and effort...including the rebuilding of Gaza....That funding should be used to find them a new place to go to...and leave Gaza as it is today a reminder to the rest of the world that terrorism is not how people solve issues...It is going to take many generations to kill that hate.... Killing negotiators, though, that’s an unusual step no matter who the hostage takers are, isn’t it? To me it suggests the obvious - that there was little interest in negotiation. Quote ‘How small we make our worlds. Gather them in, tighten them up into little castles of fear.’
SpankyMcFarland Posted October 8, 2025 Report Posted October 8, 2025 2 hours ago, Army Guy said: Most of the globe has dumped the fault of all this at the feet of Israel, like they held Palestinians back their own government could have used that aid funding for something positive...instead they used it to fuel hate...on both sides of the border....Any new investments into the area would be a waste of time and effort...including the rebuilding of Gaza....That funding should be used to find them a new place to go to...and leave Gaza as it is today a reminder to the rest of the world that terrorism is not how people solve issues...It is going to take many generations to kill that hate.... So ethnic cleansing is your answer. What about the West Bank? The same idea too? Why stop in Palestine? Maybe there are other conflicts where you would like to see this efficient method of conflict resolution employed? Quote ‘How small we make our worlds. Gather them in, tighten them up into little castles of fear.’
SpankyMcFarland Posted October 8, 2025 Report Posted October 8, 2025 4 hours ago, suds said: A great deal of Gaza has been leveled to parking lot status and has to be rebuilt and will be done so with foreign funding. Meaning.... lots of jobs, and hopefully with an International Stabilization Force in the making, a lot less corruption. No more crooked billionaires and millionaires running things. If the Palestinians can set their hate aside, they have at least a chance for a promising future. IMO Well, there’s hate on both sides of this conflict. That’s true of tribal wars everywhere. Quote ‘How small we make our worlds. Gather them in, tighten them up into little castles of fear.’
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