Have Trump and his ICE agents become a terrifying Fascist state?

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

It is not as simple as you try to make it sound.  Most crimes probably don't involve murder for one thing.   And there is no simple solution that is perfect.  But it is the government's job to do the least harm with its decisions.

That is not the government's job even a tiny bit.

The government's job is to uphold the rights of its citizens, Protect the constitution, establish justice and promote tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare and secure the blessings of liberty for the people of the country and to preserve such for their future generations. 

That is the job of the gov't.  And being in the country illegaly violates about 4 of those. 

And it is as simple as i say. The reason you want to complicate it would be that you don't like that particular fact and you want to introduce mitigating factors in order to justify an altered conclusion. And while i might appreciate your empathy for others the fact is the law and the rights of people don't work that way. 

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

The place he would potentially be deported to might be a poor place where there is a lot of crime. 

They're going to deport him to Chicago?!?

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

So sending him and his family there would cause a lot of harm to the family.  If the government just sends the man and lets the family stay in the U.S., that would be breaking up the family and be very harmful too.  So the state should do the least harm.

That is THEIR problem. THEY should have thought of that and done things legally. 

The STATES job is to uphold the law. 

You DO NOT get to steal another person's home just because you don't like yours.  

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

The point is the government must do the least harm to the family and act in a humanitarian way.

That is NOT the job of the gov't and nor should it be. 

What the gov't MUST do is uphold the law of the land and the rights of its lawful people which includes protecting it's sovereignty.  THAT is what  a gov't MUST do.  

After that, then they can consider how to be nice about it, but that comes first and foremost without exception. 

 

Now, if americans want to have a discussion and decide to change the laws so that anyone who's here is legal and do away with restrictions on immigration then fine but until then, these people are theives who have stolen one of the most precious rights of the citizens of the us  - their right to sovereignty and to choose who comes into their home 

 

And once again you've failed to demonstrate why it is somehow the gov'ts fault and not the fault of the criminals who made these bad choices.  I agree that it's terrible for families, why aren't you mad at the people who made the decision to break the law in the first place? Why do they get a walk?

Does breaking a law mean nothing to you? No punishments, no consequences? Perhaps you'd like to see us do away with laws altogether seeing as it separates criminals from their families?

[blackbird]

There are two kinds of people in the world.  Those that are the children of God by faith in Jesus Christ and believe the Bible and those who are non-believers and heading for a lost eternity of damnation.  Humanitarianism is a long word for "love thy neighbour as thyself".  Everyone should strive for what God says.

[blackbird]

2 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Does breaking a law mean nothing to you? No punishments, no consequences? Perhaps you'd like to see us do away with laws altogether seeing as it separates criminals from their families?

You obviously didn't bother reading what I said.   I said if there are crimes and punishments for illegal migrants, that punishment can be done in the U.S. like every other criminal case.  Everything should be done to avoid destroying that family.  Keep the families together if at all possible so the breadwinner can support them and the kids don't grow up without a father or mother in dire poverty.

Not only is democracy under assault now in the U.S., but the family structure of undocumented migrants is also under assault like never before.

[Nationalist]

4 hours ago, blackbird said:

It is not as simple as you try to make it sound.  

Most crimes probably don't involve murder for one thing.   And there is no simple solution that is perfect.  But it is the government's job to do the least harm with its decisions.  Deporting the father in many cases would cause more harm to the family.  The place he would potentially be deported to might be a poor place where there is a lot of crime.  So sending him and his family there would cause a lot of harm to the family.  If the government just sends the man and lets the family stay in the U.S., that would be breaking up the family and be very harmful too.  So the state should do the least harm.

Perhaps the criminal offence might result in only a few years in prison or perhaps a suspended sentence which is often the case in Canada.  So he could remain with his family and it would be intact.

The point is the government must do the least harm to the family and act in a humanitarian way.

Don't get your shirt in a not.  I know the truth sometimes pricks a bit, but it must be told.  Everyone will be held accountable by God for their decisions.  There will be no escaping that judgment.

 

 

See the emboldened bit...

No...it is not. It is the government's job to do what's best for Americans. Letting up to 20 million of these people in all within 4 years is sheer madness.

[herbie]

Cartoon from 1966

the Gestapo is the Gestapo.

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

You obviously didn't bother reading what I said.   I said if there are crimes and punishments for illegal migrants, that punishment can be done in the U.S. like every other criminal case. 

You obviously didn't read what I said. I said the law says that the criminals are deported.  If you want to change the law change the law but that is the law. 

And i can't imagine why americans would want to reward someone and pay for their upkeep. 

Further, once their time in jail was over for any criminal offenses they would STILL not  be in the country legally and would be deported.  That isn't "punishment', they aren't supposed to be here and they're sending them to where they belong 

You STILL haven't explained why Americans should be responsibe for this guy's bad decisions.

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

Keep the families together if at all possible

Sure - by all means let the wife and kids go with him if they want.  But that's THEIR choice.  THEY will have to deal with the circumstances THEY created. 

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

Not only is democracy under assault now in the U.S., but the family structure of undocumented migrants is also under assault like never before.

It isn't under assault in the slighest.  As i said, by all means the wife and kids are welcome to go with him. 

IF they don't like that then they can wait for him to complete the immigraiton process,  just like they'd have to wait for him to get out of jail.

And you STILL HAVEN"T explained why the illegal act of entering the country is the fault of the american public and why they should foot the bill OR why this guy's illegal actions should be rewarded. 

Kick them out. If they have famiily those family have to decide if they want to stay or go, that's THEIR problem if they want to break up their family or not.  He can apply outside of the country to get back in legally like everyone else. 

[blackbird]

38 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Letting up to 20 million of these people in all within 4 years is sheer madness.FAlse

False information.

"

Rubio said the number of people in the U.S. illegally is "upwards of 20, 25, maybe 30 million."

The number of immigrants living illegally in the U.S. has increased under Biden’s administration after remaining stable for years. But it is not as high as Rubio says. Most immigration groups that estimate this population agree the number ranges around 11 million to 12 million people, despite differences in methodologies. The highest estimate is 16.8 million. "

PolitiFact | There aren’t 20 million to 30 million immigrants in the U.S. illegally, as Sen. Marco Rubio claimed

41 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

No...it is not. It is the government's job to do what's best for Americans.

False again.

Write to federal government Minister of Justice if you don't believe me and ask them.  They will tell you that in Canada anyone who is being deported for whatever reason has the right to due process.   I assume the U.S. is a law-abiding country and everyone has certain rights in the Constitution, even undocumented migrants.

44 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

It is the government's job to do what's best for Americans.

Of course, but what does that mean?  The government also has a duty to follow the Constitution and laws. 

Your statement is a broad generality and not a legal statement and it does not address individual rights which are enshrined in the Constitution.

quote

Right to Due Process

The Fifth Amendment to the Constitution states that “no person . . . shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty or property, without due process of law.”²

In the simplest terms, due process means that a person cannot be deprived of their legal rights without proper application of the law. That is, a person cannot have their property taken away from them, or be placed in jail without first going through the legal system to determine if they are guilty of the crime they are accused of, and determining the applicable punishment. In other words, proper application of the law means treating an undocumented immigrant just the same as a natural born citizen before the court.  unquote

Undocumented Immigrants’ Rights Under the United States Constitution

1 minute ago, CdnFox said:

You STILL haven't explained why Americans should be responsibe for this guy's bad decisions.

I explained that very clearly but you ignored it.  I am not repeating it.  Go read it yourself.

[blackbird]

4 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Sure - by all means let the wife and kids go with him if they want.  But that's THEIR choice.  THEY will have to deal with the circumstances THEY created. 

You are in no position to say what is right for a wife and kids.  That is up to the authorities. 

[CdnFox]

1 minute ago, blackbird said:

 

In the simplest terms, due process means that a person cannot be deprived of their legal rights without proper application of the law. That is, a person cannot have their property taken away from them, or be placed in jail without first going through the legal system to determine if they are guilty of the crime they are accused of, and determining the applicable punishment. In other words, proper application of the law means treating an undocumented immigrant just the same as a natural born citizen before the court.  unquote

Undocumented Immigrants’ Rights Under the United States Constitution

No, you were doing well there but then you screwed it up. 

It does NOT mean they can't have property taken away or be placed in jail.  Police place people in jail all the time without consulting a judge. 

But you're way off base anyway. Deportation is not a 'punishment'.   A judge will not determine if someone should be 'punished' with deportation. Deportation is a CIVIL issue. not a criminal one in most cases (handful of exceptions). 

There is a legal process in place. And the judges don't have a problem with it. The only exception was a handful of people who were basically being sent directly to jail and the judge said they needed more warning to give them a fair chance to prepare a defense or argument against that, but otherwise they haven't had a problem that i've heard. 

Due process does NOT mean you get to see a judge in all cases. 

Just now, blackbird said:

You are in no position to say what is right for a wife and kids.  That is up to the authorities. 

I am COMPLETELY in a position to say what is right for illegal immigrants.  Sorry kiddo but that's how it works. 

And no the wife and kid thing is NOT up authoriteis. Its up to the wife and the husband. Follow him back when he's deported, or stay and see if he can get back in over time the legal way, OR divorce his ass for putting you in that terrible position in the first place.  What kind of a man would do that to their family?

[blackbird]

6 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

And you STILL HAVEN"T explained why the illegal act of entering the country is the fault of the american public and why they should foot the bill OR why this guy's illegal actions should be rewarded. 

Another nonsensical statement.  

1.  It is not a question of fault of the American public.  

2.  Running a country costs money for every department.  That's the price of having a country and a government.

3.  Nobody is saying anybody's illegal actions should be "rewarded".  That is you using a fake claim.

 

[blackbird]

4 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

No, you were doing well there but then you screwed it up. 

It does NOT mean they can't have property taken away or be placed in jail.  Police place people in jail all the time without consulting a judge. 

But you're way off base anyway. Deportation is not a 'punishment'.   A judge will not determine if someone should be 'punished' with deportation. Deportation is a CIVIL issue. not a criminal one in most cases (handful of exceptions). 

There is a legal process in place. And the judges don't have a problem with it. The only exception was a handful of people who were basically being sent directly to jail and the judge said they needed more warning to give them a fair chance to prepare a defense or argument against that, but otherwise they haven't had a problem that i've heard. 

Due process does NOT mean you get to see a judge in all cases. 

I am COMPLETELY in a position to say what is right for illegal immigrants.  Sorry kiddo but that's how it works. 

And no the wife and kid thing is NOT up authoriteis. Its up to the wife and the husband. Follow him back when he's deported, or stay and see if he can get back in over time the legal way, OR divorce his ass for putting you in that terrible position in the first place.  What kind of a man would do that to their family?

BS.  You are inventing phony arguments as you usually do.  You divert to all kinds of silly, ridiculous arguments and comments.  Waste of time with you.  You are not a serious poster.

[CdnFox]

1 minute ago, blackbird said:

Another nonsensical statement.  

 

Every time someone makes a statement that is accurate and factual that you don't like you claim it's nonsensical but the reality is it makes perfect sense and your inability to refute it with something that makes sense should be a warning signal to you

Quote

1.  It is not a question of fault of the American public.  

Then it's not the american public's problem to pay for or fix. It's the family who's fault it IS. 

This is long established legal tradition going back thousands of years, people are to be responsible for their own actions and choices. 

Quote

2.  Running a country costs money for every department.  That's the price of having a country and a government.

But it doesn't waste money if possible. It must be responsible for what  it does and spends and shouldn't give money away for free.

Quote

3.  Nobody is saying anybody's illegal actions should be "rewarded".  That is you using a fake claim.

You are literally demanding that his actions be rewarded. What you are saying is no different than "If someone breaks into your house, you should make them a part owner of your house and allow them to stay".   If someone violates the laws for immigration and is illegally in your country you should make him a permanent resident with full rights attached and let him stay. 

You are absolutely demanding their crime be rewarded. 

[CdnFox]

3 minutes ago, blackbird said:

BS.  You are inventing phony arguments as you usually do.  You divert to all kinds of silly, ridiculous arguments and comments.  Waste of time with you.  You are not a serious poster.

Kid I've been serious all along and posted nothing but actual logical reasonable arguments

Your problem is that you are wrong and you know you're wrong so you cannot defend your arguments.

So you're only argument is that you are fake imaginary friends told you that this is the way it should be. That's because you're a deranged lunatic who has no concept of law and order and believes that the criminals are the victims.

Don't get mad at me just because you're too stupid to come up with an argument to defend your position. I've been nothing but polite and reasonable and now you're being a complete jackass because you cannot answer two simple questions: Why should Americans bear the cost and responsibility of this person's mistakes and why should this person be rewarded,

And because you can't answer those two questions you're having a little freak out and you want it to be all my fault. Your stupidity which is evident here in droves is not by fault.

 

[blackbird]

34 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Then it's not the american public's problem to pay for or fix. It's the family who's fault it IS. 

This is long established legal tradition going back thousands of years, people are to be responsible for their own actions and choices. 

What are you talking about?  I thought the discussion was about how to deal with undocumented migrants.

So what payment or fixing are you referring to?  

I never said people were not responsible for their own actions.  

There are many homeless people in Canada and the government spends a lot of money to try to find low cost housing and provides income assistance.   Millions of dollars are spent by government to try to help people in need in Canada.   That's is the cost of having a country and maintaining order in society.

But I wasn't talking about paying undocumented migrants money or finding homes for them.   We were talking about how they should be treated as far as whether they should be allowed to stay in the country.  There are many circumstances where they should be allowed to stay if they have a spouse or children with U.S. citizenship.  

You are wandering way off the subject of how to treat migrants.   They have to be treated humanely and not just arrested and deported.  Deportation may not be the best option for them and their families.

Edited June 16, 2025 by blackbird

[blackbird]

47 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

people are to be responsible for their own actions and choices. 

That's an example of your wrong-headed thinking.

We live in a civilized society where government and charitable organizations do what they can to help the less fortunate.

Why do you think we have a public health care system?   It's to ensure people who can't afford to pay for doctors and medical care receive a certain level of care.

Why do you think we have old age pensions and a CPP?  It is to ensure that seniors can afford to make ends meet after they retire.

Why do you think we have social assistance programs for people in desperate need?  Same as above.  To help those who can't help themselves.

The whole reason of having community and country is to maintain law and order and help those who are less fortunate and need help.

There is no such thing in civilized society where we just kick people to the side or in the case of migrants, just kick them out and destroy their families.

Everything has to be done with a humanitarian point of view at the forefront.  It's as simple as that.

Edited June 16, 2025 by blackbird

[CdnFox]

35 minutes ago, blackbird said:

What are you talking about?  I thought the discussion was about how to deal with undocumented migrants.

Oh sorry, i forgot you're stupid and have the attention span of a goldfish, 

Illegal immigrants should be held responsible for their own actions... people being responsible for their actions is a long long tradition in law. 

Was that slow enough? 

37 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I never said people were not responsible for their own actions.  

You literally said they should not be responsible for their own actions and should not be held to the law because it might upset the kids.  That's your whole point here 

Kid, you're too stupid for this conversation. 

25 minutes ago, blackbird said:

That's an example of your wrong-headed thinking.

We live in a civilized society where government and charitable organizations do what they can to help the less fortunate.

 

ThEY ARE CRIMINALS!!!!! They are NOT the "less fortunate".  They committed an OFFENSE, 

Look kid, you're never going to convince me that the criminal is the victim or that society owes them a free lunch at the taxpayer's dime to reward them for breaking the law 

You're a terrible person. Imagine trying to promote rewarding crime. 

[User]

8 hours ago, blackbird said:

Don't get your shirt in a not.  I know the truth sometimes pricks a bit, but it must be told.  Everyone will be held accountable by God for their decisions.  There will be no escaping that judgment.

Truth?

You outright lied a couple of days ago. Just a bald-faced lie. You got called out and then ran away from it and have ignore my pointing this out to you several times now. 

So you can just drop this holier than thou bullshit you push here talking about truth. 

 

[CdnFox]

7 minutes ago, User said:

Quote

  8 hours ago, blackbird said:

 I know the truth sometimes pricks a bit

 

 

Truth?

You outright lied a couple of days ago. Just a bald-faced lie. You got called out and then ran away from it and have ignore my pointing this out to you several times now. 

So you can just drop this holier than thou bullshit you push here talking about truth. 

 

I think he meant that sometimes he's a bit of a príck about the truth   Which is accurate. I can see where the confusion may have come from. 

Edited June 16, 2025 by CdnFox

[blackbird]

39 minutes ago, User said:

Truth?

You outright lied a couple of days ago. Just a bald-faced lie. You got called out and then ran away from it and have ignore my pointing this out to you several times now. 

So you can just drop this holier than thou bullshit you push here talking about truth. 

 

"

1 Peter 3:16 - Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

Exodus 20:16 - Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

1 Peter 2:1-12 - Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, ..."

   For a lie to be told, it has to be willful.  There is a difference between a lie and an incorrect statement.  I never willfully lied. 

I don't even know what statement you are talking about.  But you constantly accuse me of lying.  That is your only rebuttal, which is no refutation.  It is more an admission you have nothing to counter me.

However, I forgive you.  I don't think you can help yourself.   Cdnfox can't help himself either..  I will say a prayer for you folks.

 

[User]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

 For a lie to be told, it has to be willful.  There is a difference between a lie and an incorrect statement.  I never willfully lied. 

I don't even know what statement you are talking about.  But you constantly accuse me of lying.  That is your only rebuttal, which is no refutation.  It is more an admission you have nothing to counter me.

However, I forgive you.  I don't think you can help yourself.   Cdnfox can't help himself either..  I will say a prayer for you folks.

It is simply amazing what a liar you are. I call you a liar, because you are one. 

You lied about January 6th repeatedly, I called you out for this, then you lied again saying I was the one who brought it up. I pointed this out to you, called you out for lying... and you ran away. 

I pointed this out to you again... you ignored it. 

I pointed this out to you again... you ignored it. 

Now, days later, you act like you don't know what I am talking about. Here you go liar. You finally want to own up to it or just keep running away and lying some more?

 

[robosmith]

7 hours ago, Nationalist said:

See the emboldened bit...

No...it is not. It is the government's job to do what's best for Americans. Letting up to 20 million of these people in all within 4 years is sheer madness.

America has a LONG HISTORY of welcoming immigrants AND XENOPHOBES like you who hate them.

But fortunately you're NOT American so your OPINION doesn't matter.

[CdnFox]

35 minutes ago, robosmith said:

America has a LONG HISTORY of welcoming immigrants....

.... LEGALLY. 

So they can go through the legal process and become americans same as anyone else. But why should they get to jump in line ahead of other people?

America has a long history of deporting illegals. and shooting mexicans now that i think about it. 

 

[Nationalist]

4 hours ago, robosmith said:

America has a LONG HISTORY of welcoming immigrants AND XENOPHOBES like you who hate them.

But fortunately you're NOT American so your OPINION doesn't matter.

Oh blow your zucchini slaves Dweebles. Allowing millions to flood any nation all at once is just plain stupid!

[Nationalist]

12 hours ago, blackbird said:

False information.

"

Rubio said the number of people in the U.S. illegally is "upwards of 20, 25, maybe 30 million."

The number of immigrants living illegally in the U.S. has increased under Biden’s administration after remaining stable for years. But it is not as high as Rubio says. Most immigration groups that estimate this population agree the number ranges around 11 million to 12 million people, despite differences in methodologies. The highest estimate is 16.8 million. "

PolitiFact | There aren’t 20 million to 30 million immigrants in the U.S. illegally, as Sen. Marco Rubio claimed

False again.

Write to federal government Minister of Justice if you don't believe me and ask them.  They will tell you that in Canada anyone who is being deported for whatever reason has the right to due process.   I assume the U.S. is a law-abiding country and everyone has certain rights in the Constitution, even undocumented migrants.

Of course, but what does that mean?  The government also has a duty to follow the Constitution and laws. 

Your statement is a broad generality and not a legal statement and it does not address individual rights which are enshrined in the Constitution.

quote

Right to Due Process

The Fifth Amendment to the Constitution states that “no person . . . shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty or property, without due process of law.”²

In the simplest terms, due process means that a person cannot be deprived of their legal rights without proper application of the law. That is, a person cannot have their property taken away from them, or be placed in jail without first going through the legal system to determine if they are guilty of the crime they are accused of, and determining the applicable punishment. In other words, proper application of the law means treating an undocumented immigrant just the same as a natural born citizen before the court.  unquote

Undocumented Immigrants’ Rights Under the United States Constitution

I explained that very clearly but you ignored it.  I am not repeating it.  Go read it yourself.

Wrong. Letting millions to flood any country in a short period of time is a bad idea. Just ask the Germans or British. 

Those seeking asylum must apply for it in the first nation encountered.

Brandon lied about not being able to close the border.

Once encountered having entered illegally, the are to be deported and then can begin asylum proceedings.

[User]

6 hours ago, robosmith said:

America has a LONG HISTORY of welcoming immigrants AND XENOPHOBES like you who hate them.

But fortunately you're NOT American so your OPINION doesn't matter.

Once again, you push a fundamentally dishonest position responding regarding immigration in general, when we are talking about ILLEGAL immigration. 

Can you ever be honest?