Happy “Liberation Day” aka Economic Disaster Day

[Aristides]

8 minutes ago, gatomontes99 said:

Yeah...ok master economists. Whatever you say.

What rule did he make for everyone else? He's just establishing a baseline for tariffs if they use tactics he doesn't like.

The US imposed 25% tariffs on European cars, they had been 25% on trucks since 1964.  European tariffs on US cars were previously 10%. He is basing his numbers on trade deficits, not tariffs.

[Aristides]

[herbie]

[Hodad]

1 hour ago, gatomontes99 said:

Yeah...ok master economists. Whatever you say.

I never claimed to be an economist, let alone a master economist. Nor would I. A bachelor's degree is fairly introductory in terms of real expertise. I have other degrees and chose a different profession. 

But the education comes in handy for understanding the world a little better. And, you know, understanding basic concepts like demand elasticity, you weasel.

 

But the proposition that the rest of the world stole our manufacturing base is pure nonsense. We chose to outsource and automate to get more stuff for less money. For good or ill, we did this to ourselves, and we've certainly exploited them far more than they've exploited us. 

 

Edited April 9 by Hodad

[impartialobserver]

12 minutes ago, Hodad said:

I never claimed to be an economist, let alone a master economist. Nor would I. A bachelor's degree is fairly introductory in terms of real expertise. I have other degrees and chose a different profession. 

But the education comes in handy for understanding the world a little better. And, you know, understanding basic concepts like demand elasticity, you weasel.

 

But the proposition that the rest of the world stole our manufacturing base is pure nonsense. We chose to outsource and automate to get more stuff for less money. For good or ill, we did this to ourselves, and we've certainly exploited them far more than they've exploited us. 

 

Precisely. the manufacturing base going elsewhere is due to labor costs. Not only wages but benefits, pensions, and regulations. American workers demand higher wages, paid time off, health insurance, and so on. Also, there are other costs to employing someone here; unemployment insurance, workers compensation, FICA, federal income tax, state income tax, and a few others. Someone in Vietnam does not have those costs associated with their employment. Also, a worker in Vietnam has few if any other options and so is going to be very dependable (always show up). 

[CdnFox]

3 hours ago, eyeball said:

Yabut what about the value that Trump stickin' it to libbies brings to your existence? That's got to count for something.

Pretty much the same as the value of the liberals sticking it to the conservatives for the last 10 years, or the environmental nut bars sticking it to the general public with their carbon tax. Must be worth something because all those groups certainly do seem to value it

[gatomontes99]

1 hour ago, Hodad said:

I never claimed to be an economist, let alone a master economist. Nor would I. A bachelor's degree is fairly introductory in terms of real expertise. I have other degrees and chose a different profession. 

But the education comes in handy for understanding the world a little better. And, you know, understanding basic concepts like demand elasticity, you weasel.

 

But the proposition that the rest of the world stole our manufacturing base is pure nonsense. We chose to outsource and automate to get more stuff for less money. For good or ill, we did this to ourselves, and we've certainly exploited them far more than they've exploited us. 

 

We chose to create tax incentives to send jobs overseas

[Aristides]

[Hodad]

27 minutes ago, gatomontes99 said:

We chose to create tax incentives to send jobs overseas

That's a wild oversimplification, but even if it were plainly true, you would have to agree that we're doing that to ourselves. None of that nonsense you spouted earlier about other countries "invading our markets to steal jobs from us."

Republicans spend DECADES thumping the Chicago bible and spouting the dogma of an all-seeing, all-knowing market as the One True Way to efficiently allocate resources. Laissez fair was tres chic and other countries had favorable manufacturing circumstances. Then Trump gave them a new god, so they just converted -- 180 degrees at the drop of a hat.  

 

[BeaverFever]

6 hours ago, CdnFox said:

In exchange you were limited as to how many eggs and how much cheese you could sell us. Oh dear   And you've always had limits on how much lumber we can sell you.

USA also has limits on dairy and egg imports. Not just tariffs, they have actual BANS on any imports above their limit. And we import more dairy from then than vice versa 

[BeaverFever]

On 4/8/2025 at 4:33 PM, gatomontes99 said:

The EU wants zero/zero tariffs for example. Why would they do that if the tariffs hurt the US?

Vietnam, for example, sent an emergency delegation to start negotiations immediately. Why do that if the tariffs hurt the US?

Because tariffs hurt everyone involved 

[BeaverFever]

On 4/4/2025 at 11:09 PM, gatomontes99 said:

I explained, before he was elected, that tariffs may or may not cause a rise in cost to consumer

Except that is the exact opposite of what Trump said. He never told voters there may be price increases or market tanking. In fact he said the exact opposite. He said the golden age would start of day one. He said  markets would go up and prices would go down on day one. He even claimed that the market increases happening under Biden were happening because the market was expecting a Trump election victory. 
 

And now he has paused his tariffs YET AGAIN due to market chaos and very public and toxic infighting amongst members of his administration with Elon tweeting that Trump’s biggest tariff advocate Peter Navarro is a “mor0n” and calling him “Peter Retarrdo”

 

 

[CdnFox]

18 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Because tariffs hurt everyone involved 

Sometimes, and sometimes not. Tariffs aren't inherently bad.  Its in how you use them. 

[Aristides]

[gatomontes99]

2 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Because tariffs hurt everyone involved 

Really? Then why does every single other country add tariffs to USA made products?

[Hodad]

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

 toxic infighting amongst members of his administration with Elon tweeting that Trump’s biggest tariff advocate Peter Navarro is a “mor0n” and calling him “Peter Retarrdo”

 

 

Ah, this must be what they are talking about when they say, "The adults are in charge again." 

[BeaverFever]

14 hours ago, gatomontes99 said:

Really? Then why does every single other country add tariffs to USA made products?

Not across the board tariffs like this orange id1ot is doing 

[gatomontes99]

Today, the end game is clear. Ninety plus countries are now negotiating with us while China is scrambling to get attention. At a time when their real estate market (about 20% of theor GDP) is crashing, they need to ramp up and sell cheap goods. But that is being hampered by Trump pushing other nations to forgo the cheap crap from China for the quality products from any where else.

The end game is to isolate China economically while restoring fairer trade practices and restoring manufacturing jobs in America.

[impartialobserver]

Manufacturing jobs in America... have been increasingly automated and will continue to be even more so. The glory days of you showing up, giving max effort, and being rewarded with high paying but very secure and predictable employment are in the past. Tariffs do not change this reality. 

[gatomontes99]

10 minutes ago, impartialobserver said:

Manufacturing jobs in America... have been increasingly automated and will continue to be even more so. The glory days of you showing up, giving max effort, and being rewarded with high paying but very secure and predictable employment are in the past. Tariffs do not change this reality. 

Yes. But....the better paying jobs of maintaining the machines and transporting the goods would be here and not there.

[impartialobserver]

Just now, gatomontes99 said:

Yes. But....the better paying jobs of maintaining the machines and transporting the goods would be here and not there.

And you think that all of this can be done in 2 to 4 years? Interesting. When folks talk about manufacturing they are referring to the Rosie the Riveter stereotype. Someone who repetitively follows instructions, shows up, is on time, and so on. The folks who simply watch the machines and ensure that things go smooth are important but nearly as many of them are needed as in the past. 

[gatomontes99]

1 hour ago, impartialobserver said:

And you think that all of this can be done in 2 to 4 years? Interesting. When folks talk about manufacturing they are referring to the Rosie the Riveter stereotype. Someone who repetitively follows instructions, shows up, is on time, and so on. The folks who simply watch the machines and ensure that things go smooth are important but nearly as many of them are needed as in the past. 

I think the frame work can be done in 2 to 4 years. I'm under no delusion that all these jobs will just pop up next week.

[impartialobserver]

16 minutes ago, gatomontes99 said:

I think the frame work can be done in 2 to 4 years. I'm under no delusion that all these jobs will just pop up next week.

It takes time to build factories, hire employees, and procure the inputs. In the case of existing factories ramping up production, they will most likely do so but without significant job gains (automation). Its very likely that if a Democrat wins in 2028, they will undo the tariffs and this will be somewhat for nothing. 

[CdnFox]

3 hours ago, gatomontes99 said:

Yes. But....the better paying jobs of maintaining the machines and transporting the goods would be here and not there.

That is not how that works.

You know it's okay to take an honest look at trump, still like him in general and still say that certain elements of what he does is not great. No leader has to be 100% perfect, you can say they get it 80% of the time and still think they're a great leader

But come on. We are not democrats. We don't need to lie to ourselves about whether or not the leader is not mentally there for 4 years and then act surprised at the end

Trump's tariff policies were never about getting other people to negotiate. They are utterly pointless in that regard. They were absolutely about encouraging businesses to move to the united states and do their business there to bring jobs to America. However in the way he's doing it it probably will not work effectively and may result in fewer jobs. The economy is tanking and that will mean less investments in America then there would have been, not more

He needs to drop the tariff act for right now with the possible exception of china and just announced that seeing his trade is on the table and discussions are happening he's going to take the tariff threat away and allow negotiations to proceed. He can put targeted tariffs on later where they make absolute sense but he's got to let the market correct right now. America is going to go into a recession if he's not careful and he will be living with that going into the midterms

[Hodad]

1 hour ago, impartialobserver said:

It takes time to build factories, hire employees, and procure the inputs. In the case of existing factories ramping up production, they will most likely do so but without significant job gains (automation). Its very likely that if a Democrat wins in 2028, they will undo the tariffs and this will be somewhat for nothing. 

Exactly. Business might make some easy changes, but they certainly aren't going to make massive strategic decisions based on a mercurial lame duck president with a 2-year minimum shelf life and a 4 year maximum. (Assuming we still have elections.) They will wait out the chaos. 

Edited April 10 by Hodad