Society's Burgeoning Problems

[betsy]

Rising divorce rates, single mothers, drugs, STDs, teen pregnancies, and all other social ills are choking us up.

Why, when our society's supposed to have become "progressive" and advanced do we see these ever increasing problems??

It can't only be due to poverty. For we've had poverty before.

We are doing something gravely wrong here. And unless we face it and acknowledge it....and do something about it, we are on a downward spiral.

[margrace]

Thats not hard to figure out Betsy, the plain fact is that the more money we have the more we circumvent common sense. Greed is at the bottom of all this.

[quinton]

Overpopulation.

[Guest Warwick Green]

Rising divorce rates, single mothers, drugs, STDs, teen pregnancies, and all other social ills are choking us up.

Why, when our society's supposed to have become "progressive" and advanced do we see these ever increasing problems??

It can't only be due to poverty. For we've had poverty before.

We are doing something gravely wrong here. And unless we face it and acknowledge it....and do something about it, we are on a downward spiral.

There is widespread agreement that these are problems but not what to do about them though.

And we are polarized.

Drugs? It goes from let's decriminalize the "harmless" drugs to much stricter laws against all illegal drugs.

STDs and teen pregnancies. It goes from more sex education and more access to condoms to blitzing kids to "save" themselves until marriage.

Divorces. Either a blight on society or a safety valve when marriages breakdown.

You will learn nothing from the school system. It's up to the parents to teach kids what an appropriate value system is.

[Michael Hardner]

Part of the blame should be put at the feet of media that provide entertainment and shock rather than real information. For example, when the murder rate falls do we collectively start to feel more secure ? No, we don't. Instead, there is more coverage of the murders that do occur.

You're speaking of matters of the spirit, though, and part of the problem for our spiritual loss is that there are precious few institutions that speak out for togetherness and true community feeling. These are values that can't be articulated in money terms, so the system doesn't work for them.

[BubberMiley]

Rising divorce rates, single mothers, drugs, STDs, teen pregnancies, and all other social ills are choking us up.

Why, when our society's supposed to have become "progressive" and advanced do we see these ever increasing problems??

Problems aren't ever-increasing, other than environmental ones. There have always been bad things. Many things are getting better (i.e., increasingly lower crime rates, better standard of living, less racial and gender prejudice, longer lifespans) . If you ask me, kids are a lot more polite and considerate than they were when I was one in the 1970s. High divorce rates aren't necessarily a bad thing--I wouldn't want to be stuck in a marriage I didn't want to be in. But I think divorce was a big thing among my generation, the baby boomers, and might be easing among the newer generations. THey're certainly taking their time about getting married and living together first rather than making rash teenage decisions like they used to.

I'm really not worried about the social direction of this country at all. What concerns me more than anything is an economic meltdown from exponentially increasing oil prices and an unwillingness to move away from our addiction to fossil fuels.

[Guest Warwick Green]

Problems aren't ever-increasing, other than environmental ones. There have always been bad things. Many things are getting better (i.e., increasingly lower crime rates, better standard of living, less racial and gender prejudice, longer lifespans) .

I have noticed that people who want to make a political issue out of morality usually have concluded that the only correct solution to dealing with such problems is one in conformity with their own particular religious ideology.

[August1991]

I have noticed that people who want to make a political issue out of morality usually have concluded that the only correct solution to dealing with such problems is one in conformity with their own particular religious ideology.

My feeling too.

Rising divorce rates, single mothers, drugs, STDs, teen pregnancies, and all other social ills are choking us up.

Why, when our society's supposed to have become "progressive" and advanced do we see these ever increasing problems??

It can't only be due to poverty. For we've had poverty before.

We are doing something gravely wrong here. And unless we face it and acknowledge it....and do something about it, we are on a downward spiral.

As lon as I can remember, there have been people talking about the general direction of depravity that modern society is taking. If you go back in time and read various popular tracts, you'll find much the same even centuries ago.

I figure that as people get older, they get set in their ways and then anything different is viewed as immoral. Maybe it's just jealousy that the young get all the fun.

Betsy, a quick walk around any cemetery will show you that in the past, many children grew up without a mother. How many children rarely saw their father because he was working?

If there's any constant I can see over time is that we are technologically more advanced and in some societies, individuals are more free to choose. In general, people are richer and have more choices available.

[Black Dog]

Rising divorce rates, single mothers, drugs, STDs, teen pregnancies, and all other social ills are choking us up.

Why, when our society's supposed to have become "progressive" and advanced do we see these ever increasing problems??

It can't only be due to poverty. For we've had poverty before.

We are doing something gravely wrong here. And unless we face it and acknowledge it....and do something about it, we are on a downward spiral.

Here's a question: do we have any evidence these problems are increasing? Often, conventional wisdom is out of step with reality. For example, the c.w. on violent crime and teen pregnancies is that both are on the rise, when statistics show the opposite. I'm not saying any of the above isn’t increasing (though I suspect drug use is one of those where the trends and perception are out of whack).

[theloniusfleabag]

My two bits here:Greed isn't the main issue, at least not solely for money. Self-gratification (even advertisements reinforce the notion "It's all about me!")is trumpeted as the greatest good, without being accompanied by responsibility. As responsibility for one's actions wanes, so do the problems grow.

[Naci Sey]

Betsy: "Rising divorce rates, single mothers, drugs, STDs, teen pregnancies, and all other social ills are choking us up."

Society is becoming increasingly individualistic. A myriad of things might be the cause of this, but I'd guess that a list of the biggies would include i) corporate greed, which pushes consumption and ii) psychology, which suggests that any healthy person must be constantly aware of, and thus monitoring, his/her own feelings and behaviour. Both encourage a focus on 'me', while the first helps to create a thirst for frequent change (for all things - and people - new).

In a world that's constantly changing, it's not surprising that marriages are threatened or, for that matter, that marriage itself is becoming an anachronism.

[August1991]

Society is becoming increasingly individualistic. A myriad of things might be the cause of this, but I'd guess that a list of the biggies would include i) corporate greed, which pushes consumption and ii) psychology, which suggests that any healthy person must be constantly aware of, and thus monitoring, his/her own feelings and behaviour. Both encourage a focus on 'me', while the first helps to create a thirst for frequent change (for all things - and people - new).

Do you really believe that people are more greedy now than, say, 1000 years ago? Why would that be?

Is it bad if people can now exercice individual choice? This means, for example, that individual women are now free to choose whether to marry or not, to work or not, to have children or not. People of the same sex are now free to live as they want. How is it bad for individuals to be free to choose like that?

Feminism used to be known as women's liberation.

As to your comment that people are focussed on 'me', we have never lived in a time when we have been more interconnected or more dependent on other people for our livelihood. People use cell phones to talk and on a daily basis purchase items that require the cooperation of thousands of people around the globe. (We have recently surpassed the level of world trade attained just before the First World War.)

It is common to argue that individuals in the modern world are lonely and isolated, but I think this was far worse in the past when people lived in isolated communities or rural farms, often with no means of communication at all.

In any case, people in the past suffered stultifying social constraints that broke many hearts. What kind of loneliness did that create?

[Leafless]

Betsy

You wrote

" We are doing something gravely wrong here. And unless we face it and acknowledge it ...and do something about it, we are on a downward spriral."

I think the two main causes are liberalism and consumerism.

There is no real answer as society progresses (if you want ot call it progression) so do the problems your talking about.

[Michael Hardner]

Self-gratification (even advertisements reinforce the notion "It's all about me!")is trumpeted as the greatest good, without being accompanied by responsibility.

and

Both encourage a focus on 'me', while the first helps to create a thirst for frequent change (for all things - and people - new).

Righteous on both posts. The marketing paradigm that has supplanted all other ways of looking at the world makes us all self-centred.

[Michael Hardner]

It is common to argue that individuals in the modern world are lonely and isolated, but I think this was far worse in the past when people lived in isolated communities or rural farms, often with no means of communication at all.

There are more single people now than ever. You can't maintain a relationship without some measure of self-sacrifice and this is something we're bad at teaching.

In any case, people in the past suffered stultifying social constraints that broke many hearts. What kind of loneliness did that create?

The world isn't better or worse, just more modern.

I think that there is less of a sense of community than there was, which I blame (again) on the prism of our media. If there's a deficiency, though, nature will find a way to rectify the problem.

And - yes - it would be good if we could determine objectively how these things change over time.

[August1991]

The marketing paradigm that has supplanted all other ways of looking at the world makes us all self-centred.

What the devil is that supposed to mean?

If marketing is so powerful, why can't we use it to eliminate crime, make spouses loyal, employees to show up on time and get children to do their homework?

If the marketing paradign has supplanted all other ways of looking at the world, why is their still shoplifting?

And since when did individual choice free one from the consequences of one's choices? To my knowledge, if you choose to step off a 15th floor balcony, you will still face the consequences.

[newbie]

Good post August. I think we all watch too much damn news, thus becoming negative and angry. Still, I try and keep a positive outlook and take 'er one day at a time. Go Flames Go.

[Michael Hardner]

What the devil is that supposed to mean?

If marketing is so powerful, why can't we use it to eliminate crime, make spouses loyal, get employees to show up on time and children to do their homework?

Marketing encourages consumption, which encourages want, which encourages crime. Self-centredness encourages adultery. Greed encourages productivity. etc. etc.

If the marketing paradign has supplanted all other ways of looking at the world, why is their still shoplifting?

See above.

And since when did individual choice free one from the consequences of one's choices? To my knowledge, if you choose to step off a 15th floor balcony, you will still face the consequences.

Consumption limits your ability to be free (spiritually) in ways that you don't realize until it's too late. It's another Trojan Horse of modern society.

Back in the day, there were social norms that encouraged a sort of asceticism. During the war, for example consumption was discouraged. As time went on, the western world turned into a kid's birthday party that never ends.

I'm kind of blue skying here, but work with me on this somebody.

[August1991]

Marketing encourages consumption, which encourages want, which encourages crime. Self-centredness encourages adultery. Greed encourages productivity. etc. etc.

Marketing encourages consumption? Why consumption?

Could marketing encourage, uh, doing homework? Or does marketing only work to encourage consumption? (And why would that be?)

Also, do you think marketing could encourage consumption of public transit? If so, why is traffic so bad?

Sorry, I think marketing is a far more subtle concept than you suggest here. Marketing provides useful information to people but individuals have a way of deciding for themselves.

[Michael Hardner]

Marketing encourages consumption? Why consumption?

Could marketing encourage, uh, doing homework? Or does marketing only work to encourage consumption? (And why would that be?)

Also, do you think marketing could encourage consumption of public transit? If so, why is traffic so bad?

Sorry, I think marketing is a far more subtle concept than you suggest here. Marketing provides useful information to people but individuals have a way of deciding for themselves.

Marketing is about selling the sizzle, not about information. It's about showing commercials that make you want to buy the product. Millions of individuals buy Coke - individuals making a mass market.

My feeling (no, I can't prove this) is that with our dominant medium so laden with messages that emphasize the individual, and the individual's needs, the community... the whole... suffers.

[August1991]

Marketing is about selling the sizzle, not about information. It's about showing commercials that make you want to buy the product. Millions of individuals buy Coke - individuals making a mass market.

Then why can't General Motors get people to buy its cars, and why did Eaton's go bankrupt?

And why not simply have a marketing campaign to get kids to do their homework?

Marketing informs in a variety of subtle and sophisticated ways. And people are just as sophisticated and subtle in the way they perceive that information.

This game is as old as the first young woman and young man who flirted by the waterhole. To say that one side has the upper hand is wrong. And to believe that marketing is rank brainwashing misses a much more interesting story.

Michael, your spelling and grammar are usually impeccable. That's a form of advertising (marketing) and it provides information about the quality of your posts.

My feeling (no, I can't prove this) is that with our dominant medium so laden with messages that emphasize the individual, and the individual's needs, the community... the whole... suffers.

We have never been more attached in community than we are now. Just think of the Internet, TV, world trade, cellphones, cheap long distance calls, air travel. It is easier for individuals to communicate and deal with one another, to form communities or participate in the larger community, than at any time in our history.

How can you say that community - the whole - suffers?

[betsy]

We have never been more attached in community than we are now. Just think of the Internet, TV, world trade, cellphones, cheap long distance calls, air travel. It is easier for individuals to communicate and deal with one another, to form communities or participate in the larger community, than at any time in our history.

How can you say that community - the whole - suffers?

We think of internet as "communicating." For a lot, it is becoming their only way of socializing. Business transaction is getting popular...you don't need to go out and meet "real" people.

TV can be a powerful addiction....for it provides the substitute of "companionship." I know of someone who turns on the TV all day without watching....the droning voices provides some sort of an assurance.

It may be easier for us to communicate with one another....but it is far from real personal interaction with a real person.

This forum may want us to feel that we belong in a "community"....but do I really know you? Sure, I have an image of each individual here but my image of you is just derived from conjectures in my mind based on how I translate your nuances and opinion. And my conjectures insist upon it even when I get the message that I'm wrong. I still picture one of the posters as a woman even though it's been said that he is a male.

I have the control of whether I wish to participate some more...or not. All I do is click this button and you all go away. I do not even have to offer an excuse..or a polite apology for leaving while a "conversation" is still going.

I do not even have to say a polite good-bye for now. Just click. Your feelings do not count.

Is that how it is to communicate and socialize in a real set-up?

If someone stops coming to this community....we just let it ride. We do not speak about it. For all we know, that person had just died. No one is concerned.

For all the world opening at the click of your fingertips....we are isolated. Sitting in a room...facing this glowing monitor....and think we are communicating.

But there is no real personal interaction.

It is a cold substitution for the real thing. How ironic that when we're supposed to be able to reach out to everything...we are actually losing touch.

The focus is always on "me." How can it not be?

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear August1991,

And why not simply have a marketing campaign to get kids to do their homework?

Who would pay for it, and who would profit from it? (you might say we all would profit from it down the road, and I would agree, but that is not a consideration. For those who serve Mammon, only the next quarterly balance sheet matters)

Marketing encourages consumption? Why consumption?

Mammon requires it. Planned obsolesence is a real marketing tool, to encourage more consumption. Consumption means that the product will be bought over and over again, a wonderful thing for profits. Mammon would have you believe that consumption is the meaning of life. Profit from consumption for Mammon's sake is likely the most amoral way of doing thigs. Even death, or stealing and vandalism are then 'good' things, for they require people to spend money and get virtually nothing in return. Excellent for the economy, no?

As Mr. Hardner opines,

My feeling (no, I can't prove this) is that with our dominant medium so laden with messages that emphasize the individual, and the individual's needs, the community... the whole... suffers.

we are becoming somewhat near the 'libertarian dream', 30+ million 'nations of one'.

Marketing informs in a variety of subtle and sophisticated ways.

The purpose of marketing is to coerce in subtle and sophisticated ways.

Betsy includes a a very sobering and 'human' tocuh to this thread,

It is a cold substitution for the real thing. How ironic that when we're supposed to be able to reach out to everything...we are actually losing touch.

well said, betsy.

[Guest Warwick Green]

I think the two main causes are liberalism and consumerism.

Ah, liberalism. The two edged-sword. With liberties come license.

But I don't want to turn back the clock to the times:

* to get a divorce you had to fake an adultery scene.

* sodomy was a criminal offense.

* condoms were illegal.

* women had to go to a backroom butcher for an abortion.

* blacks, gays, Catholics, Jews, etc were routinely discriminated against.

Sure, our society has a lot of flaws but I don't want to return to the dark ages.

[betsy]

I think the two main causes are liberalism and consumerism.

Ah, liberalism. The two edged-sword. With liberties come license.

But I don't want to turn back the clock to the times:

* to get a divorce you had to fake an adultery scene.

* sodomy was a criminal offense.

* condoms were illegal.

* women had to go to a backroom butcher for an abortion.

* blacks, gays, Catholics, Jews, etc were routinely discriminated against.

Sure, our society has a lot of flaws but I don't want to return to the dark ages.

How do we know that those were the "dark ages?" For all we know, we're just entering into one.