Cancellation of the F-35 contract is now a necessity: when and how, not if

[xul]

2 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Anything is possible, but with over 1000 examples already produced and in a lot of cases by countries that only are flying one type of aircraft they will be around for awhile...but no one knows for sure, and i don't have crystal balls to see into the future... 

I agree.  What I said "F-47 will kill F-35" just means F-35 will not be produced as many as it originally planned, due to both USAF and foreign customers will shift to new fighters like F-47 or something from Europe in the future. Most foreign buyers would reconsider their decision if they see USAF has changed its mind.

[Dougie93]

13 minutes ago, xul said:

But currently, Putin has to count on some makeshift turtle tanks and gas pipeline commandos instead of SU-57 and air assault brigade to win the war.

its Pyrrhic Victory at best now,

since the Russians have expended absurdly too much blood & treasure downrange,

simply to secure four Oblasts in Eastern Ukraine,

while making themselves totally beholden to Beijing in the process,

[Dougie93]

48 minutes ago, xul said:

Most foreign buyers would reconsider their decision if they see USAF has changed its mind.

exactly,

as in broad strokes, F-47 is the signal that the USAF considers F-35 to be a failure, at the conceptual level

sure, America will still try to pawn the F-35 off on allies,

but America has decided to make its own investments in 6Gen, since 5Gen is already old news,

the problem for foreign buyers mind you, is that they don't have anything better than F-35 available,

since whatever European 6Gen fighters that may be produced, are still two decades away from mass production,

 

[xul]

6 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

its Pyrrhic Victory at best now,

since the Russians have expended absurdly too much blood & treasure downrange,

simply to secure four Oblasts in Eastern Ukraine,

China fought US in the Korean War without any territorial gain. Do you think China gained nothing from the war?

Russia has gained lots of things from the invasion of Ukraine:

1) Ukraine doesn't fight Russia alone. Everyone in the world knows that NATO is behind Ukraine, just like the Vietnam War wasn't just US vs Vietcong but US vs Soviet and China backed Vietcong. By defeating Ukraine and reaching a in-favor-of-Russia peace deal, Russia has re-established its status as a major great power in the world.

2) Putin has successfully used the nationalism raised by the war to unite Russians together, which is always the first step to make a nation great again.

3) Russia has also proved its economical and technological independence from the West by defeating the sanctions from the West. For example: Before the war, Russia had developed SSJ-100 and MC-21 airliners, but these planes heavily relied on western components. When the war began, under the sanction, the production of these planes were halted due to lack of western parts. But now they begin to come back with domestic substitute components. It's just like the US's sanctions on China. They don't kill US's enemies but make them stronger.

4）The War has divided both US and Europe. It also severely damaged US's image in the world, with the help from agent Trump of course. Instead of MAGA, it almost makes US look like a piper tiger again.

 

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while making themselves totally beholden to Beijing in the process,

The relationship between Russia and China is neither allies nor master and servant, but business partners. Both countries have their own agendas and can act of their own accord. For example, China never complains that Russia sales weapons to India and Vietnam, and Russia also doesn't complain that China keeps neutral on its war against Ukraine and refuses to recognize its annexation of Crimea and East Ukraine. In short, it isn't a demanding type and contrasts with the relationship between US and its allies, in which the allies always see US as their economic blood bag and US always treats them as its servants.

 

 

[Dougie93]

1 hour ago, xul said:

China fought US in the Korean War without any territorial gain. Do you think China gained nothing from the war?

indeed,

China lost one million soldiers killed,

South Korea & America clearly won the war,

while North Korea is worse than useless to China,

in fact,  North Korea is a threat to China, allied to Russia

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, xul said:

China fought US in the Korean War without any territorial gain. Do you think China gained nothing from the war?

Russia has gained lots of things from the invasion of Ukraine:

1) Ukraine doesn't fight Russia alone. Everyone in the world knows that NATO is behind Ukraine, just like the Vietnam War wasn't just US vs Vietcong but US vs Soviet and China backed Vietcong. By defeating Ukraine and reaching a in-favor-of-Russia peace deal, Russia has re-established its status as a major great power in the world.

2) Putin has successfully used the nationalism raised by the war to unite Russians together, which is always the first step to make a nation great again.

3) Russia has also proved its economical and technological independence from the West by defeating the sanctions from the West. For example: Before the war, Russia had developed SSJ-100 and MC-21 airliners, but these planes heavily relied on western components. When the war began, under the sanction, the production of these planes were halted due to lack of western parts. But now they begin to come back with domestic substitute components. It's just like the US's sanctions on China. They don't kill US's enemies but make them stronger.

4）The War has divided both US and Europe. It also severely damaged US's image in the world, with the help from agent Trump of course. Instead of MAGA, it almost makes US look like a piper tiger again.

 

The relationship between Russia and China is neither allies nor master and servant, but business partners. Both countries have their own agendas and can act of their own accord. For example, China never complains that Russia sales weapons to India and Vietnam, and Russia also doesn't complain that China keeps neutral on its war against Ukraine and refuses to recognize its annexation of Crimea and East Ukraine. In short, it isn't a demanding type and contrasts with the relationship between US and its allies, in which the allies always see US as their economic blood bag and US always treats them as its servants.

 

 

1-  so what?

2 - that's absolutely not true. There's a great deal of unrest in Russia, only his iron fist prevents a serious uprising against him. Many are seriously unhappy. 

3  - russia's economy is smashed. They've proven they can't replace their gear without western access to chips and tech that they cannot  produce themselves. They've to cold war era tanks riding into battle because they have nothing else. They've lost a sizable hunk of their navy and they can't even replace their drones and cruise missiles fast enough for sustained attacks. Their troops are often going to battle on foot instead of in apc's or afv's.  They've taken a massive blow to their reputation. They've got unbelievable numbers of dead and wounded and that's going to impact their economy for a generation.  Their military strength is badly depleted. 

There's no way to spin this as being any kind of positive thing. 

4 trump divided Europe. and america. Trump will be gone in less than 4 years.  And Europe itself has actually bonded even tighter and will now be increasing it's military production.  And they're the ones close to russia. 

 

This war has been a disaster for Russia. There's simply no arguing that. No matter what you might feel about the start of the war or whether the war was necessary or anything like that nobody can deny that is gone badly for Russia. They hoped they would win it in 10 days and it has turned into a tar baby nightmare for them. They will be ages recovering from this conflict. 

Which suits us nicely of course. 

 

[xul]

10 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

indeed,

China lost one million soldiers killed,

South Korea & America clearly won the war,

US couldn't win the war since the most powerful American killing machine--PC keyboard hadn't been invented yet.😜

The Memorial Wall for Martyrs of People Volunteer Army in Chinese Military Museum

It shows 183,108 PVA soldiers lost their lives in the war. You obviously confused terms of Casualties and Killed

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while North Korea is worse than useless to China,

in fact,  North Korea is a threat to China, allied to Russia

You have watched too many fake news from CNN, BBC, VOA.......LOL😜

The Korean War is a symbolic starting point of the over a half century long road which leads China to be great again.

By pushing forces of US, the #1 super power in the world then, back from Chinese border,  Chinese people regained the confident to their nation, which was lost duo to many defeats in wars since the First Opium War.

Soviet wouldn't transfer those technologies which laid the foundation of Chinese modern industry to China in 1950s if China didn't prove that it dared to confront US and was able to push it back.

Nixon would also not visit China in 1972 if China didn't kick US's butt in both Korean and Vietnam wars. By the way, if Canadian didn't kick Uncle Sam's butt in the War of 1812, Trump wouldn't need to ask annexing Canada since it has already been colonized. It seems like the history of US tells us that the only way to earn respect from US is to kick its butt. 😜

Just imagine, if it wasn't China but India which sent troops in NK and kicked US's butt there, what would India be like today?

[CdnFox]

15 minutes ago, xul said:

US couldn't win the war since the most powerful American killing machine--PC keyboard hadn't been invented yet.😜

The Memorial Wall for Martyrs of People Volunteer Army in Chinese Military Museum

It shows 183,108 PVA soldiers lost their lives in the war. You obviously confused terms of Casualties and Killed

You have watched too many fake news from CNN, BBC, VOA.......LOL😜

The Korean War is a symbolic starting point of the over a half century long road which leads China to be great again.

By pushing forces of US, the #1 super power in the world then, back from Chinese border,  Chinese people regained the confident to their nation, which was lost duo to many defeats in wars since the First Opium War.

Soviet wouldn't transfer those technologies which laid the foundation of Chinese modern industry to China in 1950s if China didn't prove that it dared to confront US and was able to push it back.

Nixon would also not visit China in 1972 if China didn't kick US's butt in both Korean and Vietnam wars. By the way, if Canadian didn't kick Uncle Sam's butt in the War of 1812, Trump wouldn't need to ask annexing Canada since it has already been colonized. It seems like the history of US tells us that the only way to earn respect from US is to kick its butt. 😜

Just imagine, if it wasn't China but India which sent troops in NK and kicked US's butt there, what would India be like today?

But china isn't great again. while the US didn't win that war it didn't lose, and china is in the same boat but it's on their doorstep. So from a points point of view they absolutely lost, all they managed to do is keep a buffer zone

And china really isn't that great right now. They couldn't take on the military might of the united states at the moment, they don't have a lot of vassal or client states, they have a modest amount of influence around the world but not that much and no real allies. I wouldn't call them weak but I certainly wouldn't call them strong

[xul]

12 hours ago, CdnFox said:

They've proven they can't replace their gear without western access to chips and tech that they cannot  produce themselves.

 

The West isn't the only side in the world which can make military-grade ICs. Do you really think these Putin's new toys hitting their targets by share dumb luck, without any guidance at all?

 

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 They've got unbelievable numbers of dead and wounded and that's going to impact their economy for a generation.

These are what we heard from CNN, BBC, DW....but the reality is, Ukraine has thrown old men and girls into battlefield, meanwhile you can hardly find such kind of massive war graveyard in Russian towns. 

 

 

[CdnFox]

27 minutes ago, xul said:

The West isn't the only side in the world which can make military-grade ICs. Do you really think these Putin's new toys hitting their targets by share dumb luck, without any guidance at all?

The target was entire city blocks or hospitals. Pretty big targets. Well that's not terribly impressive

Most of his stuff gets shot down even though the ukrainians have relatively skimpy anti-aircraft capability.

Compare that to the storm shadows they've got in Ukraine and it would seem like the west has far more impressive hardware

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These are what we heard from CNN, BBC, DW....but the reality is, Ukraine has thrown old men and girls into battlefield, meanwhile you can hardly find such kind of massive war graveyard in Russian towns. 

I'm sure there's no end to propaganda. And I have no doubt you'll believe whatever lies suit your echo chamber.

[xul]

4 hours ago, CdnFox said:

The target was entire city blocks or hospitals. Pretty big targets. Well that's not terribly impressive

Most of his stuff gets shot down even though the ukrainians have relatively skimpy anti-aircraft capability.

Compare that to the storm shadows they've got in Ukraine and it would seem like the west has far more impressive hardware

 

 

I suppose no Nazi in the movie got prosecuted for destroying the residential block after ww2, since British used it for military purpose first.

The price tag of Storm Shadow is far more impressive than the hardware itself, so UK can't afford to send enough units to Ukraine to win the war.

 

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I'm sure there's no end to propaganda. And I have no doubt you'll believe whatever lies suit your echo chamber.

Actually propagandists like targeting hospitals more than army guys😜

 

I only believe things which sound logical. For example:

Just assume Kim Jong Un claimed it was SK military intentionally killing civilian but SK government said it was an accident. I choose to believe SK government, not because of the orange man good/Kim Jong Un bad thing, but because the SK explanation logically makes sense.  

 

 

[CdnFox]

2 minutes ago, xul said:

 

I suppose no Nazi in the movie got prosecuted for destroying the residential block after ww2, since British used it for military purpose first.

Look man, I know that English isn't your first language but I just can't even work with that. Did you want to try that again?

 

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The price tag of Storm Shadow is far more impressive than the hardware itself, so UK can't afford to send enough units to Ukraine to win the war.

How many would it take precisely to win the war do you think?

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Actually propagandists like targeting hospitals more than army guys😜

 

Don't see how that makes any difference to the conversation

 The price tag of Storm Shadow is far more impressive than the hardware itself, so UK can't afford to send enough units to Ukraine to win the war.

Actually propagandists like targeting hospitals more than army guys😜

 

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I only believe things which sound logical. 

I don't think you've managed to convince anyone here that you're qualified to make that distinction just yet

 

Just assume Kim Jong Un claimed it was SK military intentionally killing civilian but SK government said it was an accident. I choose to believe SK government, not because of the orange man good/Kim Jong Un bad thing, but because the SK explanation logically makes sense.  

 

 

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Just assume Kim Jong Un claimed it was SK military intentionally killing civilian but SK government said it was an accident. I choose to believe SK government, not because of the orange man good/Kim Jong Un bad thing, but because the SK explanation logically makes sense.  

 

No that's not how logic works at all. If you were logical you would say that there isn't sufficient evidence to believe either person.

You might further say that given all of the circumstances in your mind the balance of probabilities means in favor of one side or another but that you couldn't make a distinction With any certainty

 

I think you have a long way to go to understand how logic works

[xul]

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

 

No that's not how logic works at all. If you were logical you would say that there isn't sufficient evidence to believe either person.

You might further say that given all of the circumstances in your mind the balance of probabilities means in favor of one side or another but that you couldn't make a distinction With any certainty

I think you have a long way to go to understand how logic works

Your statements are grammatically and logically correct though they won't help you to win the debate since most readers of our posts are not grammar teachers.😜 

When you go to Tim Hortons and buy a cup of coffee, there is never sufficient evidence that no one has put poison into it. But I guess you will still drink it anyway. 😂

On the contrary, many tourists won't buy drinks from this guy, though they haven't sufficient evidence that these drinks are unsafe.

 

For the same reason, Zelenskyy also can't win the war by grammatical-correctly and fact-check-correctly arguing with Trump.

Zelenskyy is correct that Ukraine indeed had resisted Russian invasion alone for far more than 2 weeks before the aid from the West came in. But Trump is right that Ukraine has almost run out of manpower. It is the unfavorable reality which Ukrainian and Ukraine supporters should accept.

 

 

Edited March 25 by xul

[Aristides]

If the F-22 isn't for export, the F-47 probably won't be either, which really doesn't matter if you don't have to fight the US. The problem with the F-35 is the US may decide to degrade its capability if they don't approve of who it is used against. In Trump's case, Russia.

[CdnFox]

12 minutes ago, xul said:

Your statements are grammatically and logically correct though they won't help you to win the debate since most readers of our posts are not grammar teachers.😜 

 

But many are logical    So it kind of helps me there

 

 

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When you go to Tim Hortons and buy a cup of coffee, there is never sufficient evidence that no one has put poison into it. But I guess you will still drink it anyway. 😂

Sure, that's pretty much the same thing right? 🙄

 

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On the contrary, many tourists won't buy drinks from this guy, though they haven't sufficient evidence that these drinks are unsafe.

Dude nobody is watching your videos to try to figure out what the hell you're blathering about. 

IS this your first day working with logic?

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For the same reason, Zelenskyy also can't win the war by grammatical-correctly and fact-check-correctly arguing with Trump.

And?

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Zelenskyy is correct that Ukraine indeed resisted Russian invasion alone far more than 2 weeks before the aid from the West came in. But Trump is right that Ukraine has almost run out of manpower. It is the unfavorable reality which Ukrainian and Ukraine supporters should accept.

And?

If you ever find yourself getting anywhere near a point, feel free to make it. 

And if you can't articulate your position without people having to watch a half hour worth of videos then you're unable to really understand what you're talking about.

[Army Guy]

17 hours ago, Aristides said:

If the F-22 isn't for export, the F-47 probably won't be either, which really doesn't matter if you don't have to fight the US. The problem with the F-35 is the US may decide to degrade its capability if they don't approve of who it is used against. In Trump's case, Russia.

Most military companies do this, degrade export versions...Even with this 10 % downgrade the F-35 is still better than anything the 4.5 gen fighters can put forth...What does maverick say it is not the plane it is the pilot...

[Dougie93]

17 hours ago, Aristides said:

If the F-22 isn't for export, the F-47 probably won't be either,

Trump has said that America will make a "toned down" version of F-47 for export

[Dougie93]

9 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Most military companies do this, degrade export versions...Even with this 10 % downgrade the F-35 is still better than anything the 4.5 gen fighters can put forth...What does maverick say it is not the plane it is the pilot...

nothing is degraded about F-35,

  it's only a logistics issue in the event of a prolonged American withdrawal of support,

which is in fact extremely unlikely, since that would incite F-35 customers to dump the plane all at once,

the Liberals are not going to cancel it outright mind you,  they are playing it smart,

Carney is already angling to extract more concessions out of LockMart in terms of IRB's,

LockMart shareholders are going to have to pony up more investment in Canada in return for the 88 CF-35's,

already the Military Industrial Complex is being harmed by Trump's overreach ; political kiss of death

 

[Dougie93]

On 3/24/2025 at 1:57 PM, xul said:

 

The Memorial Wall for Martyrs of People Volunteer Army in Chinese Military Museum

It shows 183,108 PVA soldiers lost their lives in the war. You obviously confused terms of Casualties and Killed

the Chinese vastly suppress the actual number killed

but I concede that I was combining total Chinese ( 400,000 ) and North Korean ( 520,000 ) killed

[Dougie93]

On 3/24/2025 at 1:57 PM, xul said:

 By the way, if Canadian didn't kick Uncle Sam's butt in the War of 1812,

a British led force of Canadian Militia managed to repulse a three pronged American invasion against the odds,

with the First Nations led by Chief Tecumseh as an allied asymmetrical force multiplier,

but America managed to defeat a Royal Navy blockade,

ensuring American Freedom of Navigation on the high seas,

hence how both sides claim victory in the end,

Canada being the British Imperial Hegemon at the time, while America was the upstart underdog

[Aristides]

https://ottawacitizen.com/public-service/defence-watch/canadian-general-f-35-fighter-jet-deal

[Dougie93]

2 hours ago, Aristides said:

https://ottawacitizen.com/public-service/defence-watch/canadian-general-f-35-fighter-jet-deal

quite sure Trump will block the sale of Gripen or Typhoon,

Gripen by the engine, and Typhoon by pressure applied to the UK government,

it's really only the French who are willing to defy Washington, with the ability to do it,

so it would have to be Rafale

 

[Aristides]

1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

quite sure Trump will block the sale of Gripen or Typhoon,

Gripen by the engine, and Typhoon by pressure applied to the UK government,

it's really only the French who are willing to defy Washington, with the ability to do it,

so it would have to be Rafale

 

I din't know. Typhoon is a consortium of Airbus, BAE and Leonardo. Gripen could be re engined. Europe is having to re evaluate its dependence on the US defence industry as well as us. 

[Dougie93]

16 minutes ago, Aristides said:

I din't know. Typhoon is a consortium of Airbus, BAE and Leonardo. Gripen could be re engined. Europe is having to re evaluate its dependence on the US defence industry as well as us. 

any Eurofighter Consortium member can veto a sale,

the UK is too deeply integrated with America to defy Washington,

I don't see re-engining the Gripen as realistic, there is no European proxy for F414,

Europeans are more realistic about immediate decoupling from America than the Canadian population is,

Europe is much more reliant upon America for all the strategic assets America brings to bear,

the Europeans realize that they are decades away from replacing that even if they start now,

[CdnFox]

10 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

any Eurofighter Consortium member can veto a sale,

the UK is too deeply integrated with America to defy Washington,

 

I don't think that's true at all. Honestly if it were they would have pressured England to be buying nothing but f-35s anyway

And as much as the UK depends on America, they're not likely to completely alienate a former colony either.  

I'm quite certain a deal could be done. Not that the Rafale is a horrible plane either And we couldn't make some changes to suit us better