Scott75 Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 (edited) Quite an interesting showdown. Quoting from the article: ** President Trump and Vice President JD Vance loudly berated President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine on Friday in an explosive televised shouting match unlike any seen in the Oval Office between an American president and foreign leader in modern times. Mr. Trump and Mr. Vance castigated Mr. Zelensky for not being grateful enough for U.S. support in its war with Russia and sought to strong-arm him into making a peace deal on whatever terms the Americans dictate. With voices raised and tempers flaring, Mr. Trump threatened to abandon Ukraine altogether if Mr. Zelensky did not go along. Talking over the Ukrainian leader, Mr. Vance told Mr. Zelensky that it was “disrespectful” for him to come to the Oval Office and make his case in front of the American news media and demanded that he thank Mr. Trump for his leadership. Mr. Trump jumped in and told the Ukrainian leader, “You’re not really in a good position right now” and that “you’re gambling with World War III.” “You’re either going to make a deal or we’re out,” Mr. Trump added. “And if we’re out, you’ll fight it out and I don’t think it’s going to be pretty.” Minutes later, Mr. Trump seemed to call off the rest of the visit. “I have determined that President Zelenskyy is not ready for Peace if America is involved, because he feels our involvement gives him a big advantage in negotiations,” he wrote on social media. “I don’t want advantage, I want PEACE. He disrespected the United States of America in its cherished Oval Office. He can come back when he is ready for Peace.” Mr. Zelensky soon departed the White House in a black S.U.V. The exchange in front of television cameras was one of the most dramatic moments ever to play out in public in the Oval Office and underscored the radical break between the United States and Ukraine since Mr. Trump took office. ** Source: https://www.nytimes.com/live/2025/02/28/us/trump-news?unlocked_article_code=1.0U4.tZLV.BzjMU-tFdq_C&smid=url-share The New York Times, being the New York Times, then goes on with typical BS, in this case saying that Trump has "sided with Russia" and other falsehoods, but the confrontation between Trump/Vance and Zelensky seems to be quite real. It seems that only now does Zelensky realize that there's no good way out of this conflict, only varying degrees of terrible. He may even be thinking about how he should have taken the peace deal Russia offered near the start of Russia's military operation in Ukraine. It's one I believe that Trump has alluded to and is talked about in the following article: The Lost Peace? | The Nation Edited February 28 by Scott75 Added information 1 Quote
Dougie93 Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Scott75 said: Quite an interesting showdown. Quoting from the article: ** President Trump and Vice President JD Vance loudly berated President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine on Friday in an explosive televised shouting match unlike any seen in the Oval Office between an American president and foreign leader in modern times. Mr. Trump and Mr. Vance castigated Mr. Zelensky for not being grateful enough for U.S. support in its war with Russia and sought to strong-arm him into making a peace deal on whatever terms the Americans dictate. With voices raised and tempers flaring, Mr. Trump threatened to abandon Ukraine altogether if Mr. Zelensky did not go along. Talking over the Ukrainian leader, Mr. Vance told Mr. Zelensky that it was “disrespectful” for him to come to the Oval Office and make his case in front of the American news media and demanded that he thank Mr. Trump for his leadership. Mr. Trump jumped in and told the Ukrainian leader, “You’re not really in a good position right now” and that “you’re gambling with World War III.” “You’re either going to make a deal or we’re out,” Mr. Trump added. “And if we’re out, you’ll fight it out and I don’t think it’s going to be pretty.” Minutes later, Mr. Trump seemed to call off the rest of the visit. “I have determined that President Zelenskyy is not ready for Peace if America is involved, because he feels our involvement gives him a big advantage in negotiations,” he wrote on social media. “I don’t want advantage, I want PEACE. He disrespected the United States of America in its cherished Oval Office. He can come back when he is ready for Peace.” Mr. Zelensky soon departed the White House in a black S.U.V. The exchange in front of television cameras was one of the most dramatic moments ever to play out in public in the Oval Office and underscored the radical break between the United States and Ukraine since Mr. Trump took office. ** Source: https://www.nytimes.com/live/2025/02/28/us/trump-news?unlocked_article_code=1.0U4.tZLV.BzjMU-tFdq_C&smid=url-share The New York Times, being the New York Times, then goes on with typical BS, in this case saying that Trump has "sided with Russia" and other falsehoods, but the confrontation between Trump/Vance and Zelensky seems to be quite real. It seems that only now does Zelensky realize that there's no good way out of this conflict, only varying degrees of terrible. He may even be thinking about how he should have taken the peace deal Russia offered near the start of Russia's military operation in Ukraine. It's one I believe that Trump has alluded to and is talked about in the following article: The Lost Peace? | The Nation at the end of the day, the MAGA base does not want to fight Russia for Ukraine and views Zelesnky as a bad actor essentially, Ukraine became the cause celebre of the international Woke Progressive left now Ukraine is simply caught in the inevitable Go Woke Go Broke effect therein Edited February 28 by Dougie93 2 Quote
Scott75 Posted February 28 Author Report Posted February 28 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: at the end of the day, the MAGA base does not want to fight Russia for Ukraine and views Zelesnky as a bad actor essentially, Ukraine became the cause celebre of the international Woke Progressive left now Ukraine is simply caught the inevitable Go Woke Go Broke effect therein Exactly. During the Cuban Missile Crisis, USSR leader Khrushchev decided to make a deal with JFK: Russia would remove its nukes from Cuba and in return, the U.S. would remove its nukes from Turkey. A wise move on both leaders part to avoid further escalation: Business Insider published an article in 2018 that posited that there were 9 times that the world was on the brink of nuclear war- 4 of those times were during the Cuban Missile Crisis. It looks like the Ukraine crisis has had at least one such incident and I suspect Trump would like to ensure that there aren't any more. I believe most sane people would want to avoid the U.S. having a nuclear war with Russia. They even made an acronym for it- MAD, short for Mutually Assured Destruction. Edited February 28 by Scott75 Quote
Dougie93 Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 5 minutes ago, Scott75 said: Exactly. During the Cuban Missile Crisis, USSR leader Khrushchev decided to make a deal with JFK: go back a bit further and you will find that Khrushchev was doing everything he could to get JFK elected https://time.com/4851449/trump-jr-russian-kennedy-history/ "when the Democrats do it it's legal" 1 Quote
Radiorum Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 To publicly bully and humiliate a man fighting for the life of his country is despicable in the extreme (especially when you are supposed to be on the side of democracy). This show will only play well with the most die-hard of Trump’s cult members. History is watching, and will lump Trump and Vance in with the bad guys. 1 3 Quote
Dougie93 Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 15 minutes ago, Scott75 said: They even made an acronym for it- MAD, short for Mutually Assured Destruction. the actual term which Robert McNamara coined was Mutual Vulnerability the problem is, it only works if both sides rid themselves of all tactical nuclear weapons tactical meaning ; to fight strategic nuclear weapons are designed to never be used, simply to maintain Mutual Vulnerability if however both sides maintain arsenals of tactical nuclear weapons, which they do that opens the way for a theatre thermonuclear war below the strategic level so while it remains extremely unlikely that there would be an interpolar exchange of ICBMs the real threat is that tactical nuclear weapons would be used in theatre, particularly against proxies and then that spirals out of control into a global conflagration an example would be Poland entering the war on the side of Ukraine, tipping the balance then the Russians employ tactical nuclear weapons against Poland the result is World War Three perhaps, but not by all sides launching their ICBMs at once Quote
eyeball Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 They've made America the enemy. I mean, Trump and Vance have effectively aligned America with the same axis North Korea is with. We’re witnessing the self-sabotage of the United States. America First always meant America Alone, a predatory America whose role in the world is no longer based on democratic belief. America voted at the United Nations earlier this week against Ukraine, siding with Russia and China against almost all its fellow democracies. Is this who Americans want to be? For this is what America is being turned into. David Frum https://archive.ph/X2oCM#selection-839.0-843.325 ...a Shining Beacon if there ever was one... 2 Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
suds Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 Just now, Radiorum said: To publicly bully and humiliate a man fighting for the life of his country is despicable in the extreme (especially when you are supposed to be on the side of democracy). This show will only play well with the most die-hard of Trump’s cult members. History is watching, and will lump Trump and Vance in with the bad guys. I agree. This was a meeting that should have best been held behind closed doors and not televised because it puts Zelenski in an extremely awkward situation. Some may argue that sometimes the truth hurts but why publicly rip the guy to shreds? I'm not saying that Trump or J.D. are wrong in their assertions only I don't like the way they did it. 1 Quote
Dougie93 Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 4 minutes ago, Radiorum said: To publicly bully and humiliate a man fighting for the life of his country is despicable in the extreme (especially when you are supposed to be on the side of democracy). only if you view Ukraine as being a Sacred Cow but the populist right does not view Ukraine as being that the populist right views Russia & Ukraine as being the same corrupt Eastern European dictatorship in two parts this is the former Soviet Union fighting itself and since Russia is potentially an existential threat to America by thermonuclear war it is simply not in America's interests to go all in for Ukraine this is not limited to the American right, in Europe, both the left & right are opposed to going to war for Ukraine 2 Quote
gatomontes99 Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 The left is going apeshit. It must be a good thing he did. Zelensky is delusional. He just is. He thinks the world will save him from Russia. The truth is, the world doesn't have enough to gain by saving Ukraine. Everyone outside of Ukraine is better off negotiating a deal and moving forward. It won't be an ideal deal. It will ne better than fighting a war though. So let the chicken hawk democrats squak about needing more war. Trump is talking about ending it. 2 1 Quote The Rules for Liberal tactics: If they can't refute the content, attack the source. If they can't refute the content, attack the poster. If 1 and 2 fail, pretend it never happened. Everyone you disagree with is Hitler. A word is defined by the emotion it elicits and not the actual definition. If they are wrong, blame the opponent. If a liberal policy didn't work, it's a conservatives fault and vice versa. If all else fails, just be angry.
Hodad Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 Bullies will bully--and side with other bullies. And the sniveling subs will be at half mast for it. 1 Quote
Dougie93 Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 4 minutes ago, eyeball said: David Frum the Bushie Neocon who fervently supported the Iraq War he's been totally discredited in America as a result 1 Quote
Dougie93 Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 3 minutes ago, gatomontes99 said: So let the chicken hawk democrats squak about needing more war. exactly suddenly all these Democrats are siding with the Bushie Neocons, whom they previously decried as being evil you get whiplash keeping up with the left and how quickly they switch sides 1 Quote
gatomontes99 Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 Just now, Dougie93 said: exactly suddenly all these Democrats are siding with the Bushie Neocons, whom they previously decried as being evil you get whiplash keeping up with the left and how quickly they switch sides They did embrace the Cheneys. Jus' saying. 1 Quote The Rules for Liberal tactics: If they can't refute the content, attack the source. If they can't refute the content, attack the poster. If 1 and 2 fail, pretend it never happened. Everyone you disagree with is Hitler. A word is defined by the emotion it elicits and not the actual definition. If they are wrong, blame the opponent. If a liberal policy didn't work, it's a conservatives fault and vice versa. If all else fails, just be angry.
eyeball Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 5 minutes ago, Radiorum said: This show will only play well with the most die-hard of Trump’s cult members. Especially after dragging his witch-hunt grievance into it - lots of orange meat got fed to MAGA today. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Dougie93 Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 2 minutes ago, gatomontes99 said: They did embrace the Cheneys. Jus' saying. not just the Cheney's they are fawning over John Bolton now; any Neocon Warmonger is back in style with the left, so long as they favour a forever war in Ukraine 3 minutes ago, eyeball said: Especially after dragging his witch-hunt grievance into it - lots of orange meat got fed to MAGA today. as if you leftists are not a cult this is simply fighting fire with fire hang from your own rope, lefties Quote
eyeball Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 8 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: the Bushie Neocon who fervently supported the Iraq War he's been totally discredited in America as a result Funny how just about anyone who didn't support it back then was excoriated for being a Islamo-fascist terrorist sympathizing commie. So you're saying you didn't fall for Colin Powell's comic books either? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
gatomontes99 Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 7 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: not just the Cheney's they are fawning over John Bolton now; any Neocon Warmonger is back in style with the left, so long as they favour a forever war in Ukraine as if you leftists are not a cult this is simply fighting fire with fire hang from your own rope, lefties It's the permanent swamp that they embrace. It is part of the Marxist/socialist/communist ideology. They love total control. They want to be told what to do and they want to trust their overlords implicitly. We, mistakenly, Thought the hippies were against government. They were not. They were against any type of government that isn't totalitarian. That is what we see today. Quote The Rules for Liberal tactics: If they can't refute the content, attack the source. If they can't refute the content, attack the poster. If 1 and 2 fail, pretend it never happened. Everyone you disagree with is Hitler. A word is defined by the emotion it elicits and not the actual definition. If they are wrong, blame the opponent. If a liberal policy didn't work, it's a conservatives fault and vice versa. If all else fails, just be angry.
Hodad Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 1 minute ago, eyeball said: Funny how just about anyone who didn't support it back then was excoriated for being a Islamo-fascist terrorist sympathizing commie. So you're saying you didn't fall for Colin Powell's comic books either? I wholly reject the entire farking premise that these disingenuous asshats want to make an analogue between the Iraq war and the Ukraine war. 1. Dictator Putin invaded a democratic Ukraine and the democratic countries of the world offered aid to a people fighting to retain their freedom. 2. The Bush administration used (at its most generous interpretation) "questionable" intelligence to invade a sovereign nation for the sake of regime change and resource grab. Quote
eyeball Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 19 minutes ago, gatomontes99 said: The left is going apeshit. I suspect phones are ringing off the hook around NATO too. I wouldn't be surprised if Taiwan is asking if it can become a member. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Dougie93 Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 7 minutes ago, eyeball said: Funny how just about anyone who didn't support it back then was excoriated for being a Islamo-fascist terrorist sympathizing commie. So you're saying you didn't fall for Colin Powell's comic books either? I am a war mongering Neocon, old school Cold Warrior I favour a direct confrontation with Russia even at the risk of nuclear weapons being invoked I simply recognize and acknowledge why the American electorate is not going to follow me there Quote
Deluge Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 1 hour ago, Scott75 said: Quite an interesting showdown. Quoting from the article: ** President Trump and Vice President JD Vance loudly berated President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine on Friday in an explosive televised shouting match unlike any seen in the Oval Office between an American president and foreign leader in modern times. Mr. Trump and Mr. Vance castigated Mr. Zelensky for not being grateful enough for U.S. support in its war with Russia and sought to strong-arm him into making a peace deal on whatever terms the Americans dictate. With voices raised and tempers flaring, Mr. Trump threatened to abandon Ukraine altogether if Mr. Zelensky did not go along. Talking over the Ukrainian leader, Mr. Vance told Mr. Zelensky that it was “disrespectful” for him to come to the Oval Office and make his case in front of the American news media and demanded that he thank Mr. Trump for his leadership. Mr. Trump jumped in and told the Ukrainian leader, “You’re not really in a good position right now” and that “you’re gambling with World War III.” “You’re either going to make a deal or we’re out,” Mr. Trump added. “And if we’re out, you’ll fight it out and I don’t think it’s going to be pretty.” Minutes later, Mr. Trump seemed to call off the rest of the visit. “I have determined that President Zelenskyy is not ready for Peace if America is involved, because he feels our involvement gives him a big advantage in negotiations,” he wrote on social media. “I don’t want advantage, I want PEACE. He disrespected the United States of America in its cherished Oval Office. He can come back when he is ready for Peace.” Mr. Zelensky soon departed the White House in a black S.U.V. The exchange in front of television cameras was one of the most dramatic moments ever to play out in public in the Oval Office and underscored the radical break between the United States and Ukraine since Mr. Trump took office. ** Source: https://www.nytimes.com/live/2025/02/28/us/trump-news?unlocked_article_code=1.0U4.tZLV.BzjMU-tFdq_C&smid=url-share The New York Times, being the New York Times, then goes on with typical BS, in this case saying that Trump has "sided with Russia" and other falsehoods, but the confrontation between Trump/Vance and Zelensky seems to be quite real. It seems that only now does Zelensky realize that there's no good way out of this conflict, only varying degrees of terrible. He may even be thinking about how he should have taken the peace deal Russia offered near the start of Russia's military operation in Ukraine. It's one I believe that Trump has alluded to and is talked about in the following article: The Lost Peace? | The Nation Zelensky's been cut off, and now he's stamping his feet like a little b*tch. Godspeed, wokejob! Quote
Dougie93 Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 5 minutes ago, gatomontes99 said: We, mistakenly, Thought the hippies were against government. They were not. They were against any type of government that isn't totalitarian. That is what we see today. I was not mistaken, I was aware at the time, that the left fervently supported the Communists in Cuba, in North Vietnam, in Chlle, in Angola, in Nicaragua, etcetera, etcetera even in East Germany, where Vladimir Putin was operating out of as a KGB Lt. Colonel at the time the only reason the left opposes the Kremlin now, is that the Kremlin is not Communist anymore 1 Quote
herbie Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 The Almighty Yanks will invoke the spirit of 1938 Munich, collaborate with the enemy and decide how much another country shall concede to avoid the possibility of having to DO anything. This time not to buy time to build up for a possible war, but strictly our of financial Cost Effectiveness. Making Chamberlain look like a f*cking hero, this time not acting with other 3rd parties as cohorts in the extortion but by one man as he believes himself to truly be King Shit. FFS America, get your shit together. Before the actual Free World uses your own concept ot "Regime Change" on you. Keep up the foot dragging about this Orange Lunatic who thinks he's the Emperor, or it may become a reality, by any means necessary. Quote
eyeball Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 2 minutes ago, Hodad said: I wholly reject the entire farking premise that these disingenuous asshats want to make an analogue between the Iraq war and the Ukraine war. 1. Dictator Putin invaded a democratic Ukraine and the democratic countries of the world offered aid to a people fighting to retain their freedom. 2. The Bush administration used (at its most generous interpretation) "questionable" intelligence to invade a sovereign nation for the sake of regime change and resource grab. Trump's administration appears to be making this about a resource grab too using who knows what rational. I note Bush also fell for Putin's charms. I doubt people around the world care anywhere near as much as Americans do about the way internal politics are driving it in the direction it's going though. They should probably pay closer attention. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Americas right and left wings are effectively waging a civil war between themselves, it's been spilling out onto the global stage for some time and now Trump and Vance have made it clear it will also be waged with proxies like...Russia. And...North Korea? Seriously? It's beyond bizarre. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
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