BeaverFever Posted February 22 Report Posted February 22 3 hours ago, WestCanMan said: All you do here is lie ffs. All you do here is be stupid ffs 1) someone suggesting Ukraine should join NATO someday is not the same as Ukraine is about to join NATO 2) So what if it dis join NATO? NATO is not a danger to Russia: - NATO countries all had developed extensive economic ties to Russia and even now many still can’t stop buying Russian gas and doing other trade with Russia - NATO membership would simply mean that if Russia invaded Ukraine then NATO could defend it 3) If Russia wanted to block or protest Ukraine joining NATO there are a thousand way they could have done that without invading. It’s not obvious to anyone how invading Ukraine prevents that in fact it makes it more likely - in fact Russia successfully kept Sweden and Finland out of NATO for the entire cold war and beyond…until it invaded Ukraine. 4 hours ago, WestCanMan said: The whole reason that Biden was spending so much time in Ukraine as VP was to "rid Ukraine of corruption so that they could join NATO". Then the US started unilaterally firing and hiring prosecutors (to the delight of Hunter's boss), deciding who could and couldn't run for president (Tory Nuland audio tapes), and inciting/supporting/prolonging anti-gov't protests in Ukraine (Euromaidan), and no doubt "colluding to influence elections" *shudder*. You don’t know what you’re talking about. You previously admitted that you didn’t know anything about Ukraines recent history and Russias meddling in it internal politics now suddenly you’re claiming to be some kind of expert. First you dumbass the competition over Ukraine long predates Obama and goes all the way back to end of the Cold War and both Bush governments It always amazes me how you never let your complete ignorance of a topic get in the way of spouting off strong opinions about it. It’s the MAGA way however Ukraine has always had pro-western, pro-democracy, pro European movements since the end of the cold war. Russian backed puppet regimes brutally suppressed them, poisoned rivals, killed and beat up journalists, rigged elections, and tried to keep Ukraine under Russian control. Naturally western democracies going back to Bush Sr. supported the pro-democracy Ukrainian parties just the same way Trump is supporting far right parties in Europe. Russia invaded in 2014 because their corrupt puppet dictator was ousted after massacring unarmed protesters and they were worried about losing control of the country. PERIOD. The Ukrainian prosecutor (one prosecutor not multiple as dishonestly claim) that USA and Europe all wanted removed was a corrupt tool of the old Russian puppet regime who used his office to target pro-western leaders and institutions. Quote
eyeball Posted February 22 Report Posted February 22 7 hours ago, User said: Um... no one is here saying Ukraine can't defend itself. Your country accepted it as its responsibility to defend Ukraine when it brokered the surrender of their nuclear weapons to Russia. Now you want half of Ukraine's resources to continue providing protection. No one was expecting Ukraine would be stuck trying to defend itself from two gangsters at once. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
I am Groot Posted February 22 Report Posted February 22 13 hours ago, WestCanMan said: During BIDEN's presidency: The war started $300B spent by the US on the Ukraine war tens of thousands of lives lost and over a million people injured Ukraine lost 30,000 sq km of real estate Well, first, it's more like $130 billion. Second, how many lives lost in WW2? I guess we blame Roosevelt for that, right? How many lives lost in Iraq? That was all on George Bush, I guess. And the second Iraq war, and the world trade center bombings? That was all George Bush II! Why, if only orange Jesus had been president there'd have been no WW2! No Iraqi war! No WTC bombings! 13 hours ago, WestCanMan said: During TRUMP's presidency: He's ending the war By giving Russia everything it wants. You act like it's hard to end a war by giving the aggressor everything they want. It's not. Quote
User Posted February 22 Report Posted February 22 (edited) 18 hours ago, BeaverFever said: Yeah as a Canadian right now I care more about Ukrainians than Americans. Then again USA isn’t being invaded like Ukraine is and the president of Ukraine isn’t trying to annex his neighbours like Trump is. Unconditionally allowing Russia to invade and annex its territory is surrender. Period LOL, you are a Canadian? Your arguments here are even dumber than I thought. Go cry to your own government as to why they are not doing more for the Ukrainians, then. You don't like the deal America is proposing? Offer them your own. Send your own military to fight and die in Ukraine. Send them all your military equipment. How old are you? Why do you not go volunteer to fight in Ukraine? Edited February 22 by User 1 Quote
User Posted February 22 Report Posted February 22 12 hours ago, eyeball said: Your country accepted it as its responsibility to defend Ukraine when it brokered the surrender of their nuclear weapons to Russia. Now you want half of Ukraine's resources to continue providing protection. No one was expecting Ukraine would be stuck trying to defend itself from two gangsters at once. This is not true. Nowhere in that agreement did the United States make any commitment to defend Ukraine from conventional military aggression. Quote
User Posted February 22 Report Posted February 22 1 hour ago, I am Groot said: By giving Russia everything it wants. You act like it's hard to end a war by giving the aggressor everything they want. It's not. OK, fine, what is the alternative? Is America supposed to sink billions upon billions of dollars into Ukraine forever endlessly? We are not giving Russia anything, they have taken it by force. How will that be taken back? Quote
eyeball Posted February 22 Report Posted February 22 34 minutes ago, User said: This is not true. Nowhere in that agreement did the United States make any commitment to defend Ukraine from conventional military aggression. It never said anything about not ganging up with Russia either. You American always have an excuse for not staying within the spirit of the agreements you make. Nothing you say can be trusted and it would be irresponsible of anyone to make a deal with you. 53 minutes ago, User said: OK, fine, what is the alternative? Is America supposed to sink billions upon billions of dollars into Ukraine forever endlessly? We are not giving Russia anything, they have taken it by force. How will that be taken back? You give Russia a punch in the nose, wtf is wrong with you people? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
User Posted February 22 Report Posted February 22 3 hours ago, eyeball said: It never said anything about not ganging up with Russia either. You American always have an excuse for not staying within the spirit of the agreements you make. Nothing you say can be trusted and it would be irresponsible of anyone to make a deal with you. What did we say? When did we say it? You made one false comment and when called out you just go on to making more. 3 hours ago, eyeball said: You give Russia a punch in the nose, wtf is wrong with you people? Who is this "you?" Are you even an American? WTF don't YOU go punch them in the nose, whatever that means? 1 Quote
I am Groot Posted February 22 Report Posted February 22 4 hours ago, User said: OK, fine, what is the alternative? Is America supposed to sink billions upon billions of dollars into Ukraine forever endlessly? We are not giving Russia anything, they have taken it by force. How will that be taken back? Negotiations are fine. And I agree that Russia will have to be permitted to retain the Donbas region. But any idea of Ukraine disarming is out the window. And ideally, we require Western military in as peacekeepers. The carrot and stick are that if he does this many of the sanctions against Russia could be lifted. And if he doesn't, then the West will start giving Ukraine more modern weapons and take the gloves off them, let them have long-range missiles, and fire them as deep into Russia as they want. Quote
User Posted February 22 Report Posted February 22 1 hour ago, I am Groot said: Negotiations are fine. And I agree that Russia will have to be permitted to retain the Donbas region. But any idea of Ukraine disarming is out the window. And ideally, we require Western military in as peacekeepers. The carrot and stick are that if he does this many of the sanctions against Russia could be lifted. And if he doesn't, then the West will start giving Ukraine more modern weapons and take the gloves off them, let them have long-range missiles, and fire them as deep into Russia as they want. You were the one on here saying we were giving Russia everything they want. Now you agree they will have to keep the Donbas. Where do you get that we are "giving" Russia a disarmed Ukraine? Trump has in fact told European governments they should put peacekeepers there. Quote
eyeball Posted February 22 Report Posted February 22 1 hour ago, User said: What did we say? When did we say it? Why would it need to be said? Are you suggesting the agreement specifically spelled out Ukraine's security would only be guaranteed in the event they were attacked with nuclear weapons? Bullshit. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
User Posted February 23 Report Posted February 23 2 hours ago, eyeball said: Why would it need to be said? Are you suggesting the agreement specifically spelled out Ukraine's security would only be guaranteed in the event they were attacked with nuclear weapons? Bullshit. LOL, you have gone from claiming there was some kind of agreement to saying well, we just said something, to now saying why would it need to be said... Once again, you offer nothing here but lies. Quote
eyeball Posted February 23 Report Posted February 23 1 hour ago, User said: Once again, you offer nothing here but lies. There's Reagan's puke. I mean c'mon there's no denying that. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
I am Groot Posted February 23 Report Posted February 23 5 hours ago, User said: You were the one on here saying we were giving Russia everything they want. Now you agree they will have to keep the Donbas. Where do you get that we are "giving" Russia a disarmed Ukraine? Trump has in fact told European governments they should put peacekeepers there. Putin has rejected any NATO troops and continues to demand Ukraine disarm. What Russia wants is Ukraine. All of it. A temporary truce until their next attack is not what we want. And since Putin's signature on a treaty is worth about as much as Trump's, ie, nothing, we need to ensure they don't attack again. Quote
User Posted February 23 Report Posted February 23 14 hours ago, I am Groot said: Putin has rejected any NATO troops and continues to demand Ukraine disarm. What Russia wants is Ukraine. All of it. A temporary truce until their next attack is not what we want. And since Putin's signature on a treaty is worth about as much as Trump's, ie, nothing, we need to ensure they don't attack again. Once again, you tried to claim that Trump was giving Putin everything he wants. I am glad you appear to have moved on from that and admit it was wrong. Quote
eyeball Posted February 24 Report Posted February 24 6 hours ago, User said: Once again, you tried to claim that Trump was giving Putin everything he wants. I am glad you appear to have moved on from that and admit it was wrong. Sure it's wrong, Trump wants half. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
User Posted February 24 Report Posted February 24 13 minutes ago, eyeball said: Sure it's wrong, Trump wants half. More dishonestly. Quote
eyeball Posted February 24 Report Posted February 24 8 minutes ago, User said: More dishonestly. Really, what did you think Trump meant in the offer of protection he made to Zelenskyy? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
User Posted February 24 Report Posted February 24 5 minutes ago, eyeball said: Really, what did you think Trump meant in the offer of protection he made to Zelenskyy? Not what you said. Quote
I am Groot Posted February 24 Report Posted February 24 (edited) 21 hours ago, User said: Once again, you tried to claim that Trump was giving Putin everything he wants. I am glad you appear to have moved on from that and admit it was wrong. I didn't change a thing. I merely rephrased it for what I had hoped would be more clarity. Apparently, clarity is still beyond your understanding. Edited February 24 by I am Groot Quote
User Posted February 24 Report Posted February 24 1 hour ago, I am Groot said: I didn't change a thing. I merely rephrased it for what I had hoped would be more clarity. Apparently, clarity is still beyond your understanding. Nope, you are still just as wrong as you were before. Quote
Aristides Posted February 24 Report Posted February 24 Trump is abandoning Pax Americana and rules based world order to return the world to pre WW1 power politics. Quote
Nationalist Posted February 24 Report Posted February 24 On 2/22/2025 at 12:01 PM, eyeball said: You give Russia a punch in the nose, wtf is wrong with you people? Says the coward from behind his keyboard... Quote Its so lonely in m'saddle since m'horse died.
User Posted February 24 Report Posted February 24 7 minutes ago, Aristides said: Trump is abandoning Pax Americana and rules based world order to return the world to pre WW1 power politics. Come back when you can actually articulate this with some facts, logic, and reason. Quote
Aristides Posted February 24 Report Posted February 24 (edited) 16 minutes ago, User said: Come back when you can actually articulate this with some facts, logic, and reason. Climb out of your FOX hole for once. https://www.newsweek.com/germany-merz-election-chancellor-us-2035083 This guy is will be heading a right wing government and even he wants nothing to do with Trump. Edited February 24 by Aristides Quote
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