Army Guy Posted February 19 Report Posted February 19 Or maybe we should increase current standards, and enforce them, new, and much higher standards' are need and need to be maintain...If your 350 lbs now you have a problem both mental and physical you should be put on a program until you can meet those standards... The question each of these obese people should be asking is who is going to carry me of the battle field...pull me out of a burning Armoured vehicle, plane or helo, not only are they Not fit, but will put the lives of others at risk be it trying to save the big person, or having to do more work because they are not fit enough to keep up in a march, run, or advance to contact...each trade has it's own standards to meet for many reasons.... Stop recruiting fat people....those that become obese during service should be told lose it or find another occupation... Every occupation in the service will eventual come a time when your fitness will be required to save another's life...want to be round find another occupation we want warriors not diversity in the weight category... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
SpankyMcFarland Posted February 20 Report Posted February 20 21 minutes ago, Army Guy said: Or maybe we should increase current standards, and enforce them, new, and much higher standards' are need and need to be maintain...If your 350 lbs now you have a problem both mental and physical you should be put on a program until you can meet those standards... Without surgery or semaglutide, how long do you think it will take to get them to a BMI of, what, 30, 25? Ain’t gonna happen 21 minutes ago, Army Guy said: The question each of these obese people should be asking is who is going to carry me of the battle field...pull me out of a burning Armoured vehicle, plane or helo, not only are they Not fit, but will put the lives of others at risk be it trying to save the big person, or having to do more work because they are not fit enough to keep up in a march, run, or advance to contact...each trade has it's own standards to meet for many reasons.... If they asked themselves those questions when they joined the service or any time subsequently would it have made any difference? No, because weight gain is largely unconscious. 21 minutes ago, Army Guy said: Stop recruiting fat people....those that become obese during service should be told lose it or find another occupation... Every occupation in the service will eventual come a time when your fitness will be required to save another's life...want to be round find another occupation we want warriors not diversity in the weight category... Without drugs etc. you’ll be picking from an ever-diminishing sliver of the Canadian population for reasons explained. People aren’t going to self-deport themselves from careers. You would need enforceable criteria of body fat content to oversee this. Quote
Venandi Posted February 20 Report Posted February 20 (edited) 1 hour ago, SpankyMcFarland said: Without drugs etc. you’ll be picking from an ever-diminishing sliver of the Canadian population for reasons explained. I think that's pretty much always been the case though, if memory serves, and assuming we hire strictly on merit as opposed to inclusivity targets, the sliver available to draw from is about 7% of the population. From what I see now, and it's strictly anecdotal, long intake delays for non targeted recruits are resulting in some good candidates being lost to policing and fire services. Funny how these folks seem to gravitate to specific fields of employment eh? That's the way of it though and that's where the sliver seems to be. Very few people say "ya, it was a tossup between paratrooper and hotel management," or "tough choice for me, either fighter pilot or dental assistant." In any case, Canadiens seem to have decided what they want (proper thing IMO even if I don't agree) and so far they seem to be getting exactly what they asked for. Can't do much better than that really, all that remains to be seen is if they're happy with the long term results (some might say consequences) of what was achieved. Edited February 20 by Venandi Quote
CdnFox Posted February 20 Author Report Posted February 20 8 minutes ago, Venandi said: I think that's pretty much always been the case though, if memory serves, and assuming we hire strictly on merit as opposed to inclusivity targets, the sliver available to draw from is about 7% of the population. From what I see now, and it's strictly anecdotal, long intake delays for non targeted recruits are resulting in some good candidates being lost to policing and fire services. Funny how these folks seem to gravitate to specific fields of employment eh? That's the way of it though and that's where the sliver seems to be. Very few people say "ya, it was a tossup between paratrooper and hotel management," or "tough choice for me, either fighter pilot or dental assistant." In any case, Canadiens seem to have decided what they want (proper thing IMO even if I don't agree) and so far they seem to be getting exactly what they asked for. Can't do much better than that really, all that remains to be seen is if they're happy with the long term results (some might say consequences) of what was achieved. And canada's response? 1 1 Quote There are two types of people in this world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data
Venandi Posted February 20 Report Posted February 20 (edited) 13 minutes ago, CdnFox said: And canada's response? Mild annoyance has been replaced by idle curiosity, I only want to see how much bending it takes to make them tap. Edited February 20 by Venandi 1 Quote
Army Guy Posted February 20 Report Posted February 20 (edited) 18 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said: Without surgery or semaglutide, how long do you think it will take to get them to a BMI of, what, 30, 25? Ain’t gonna happen If they asked themselves those questions when they joined the service or any time subsequently would it have made any difference? No, because weight gain is largely unconscious. Without drugs etc. you’ll be picking from an ever-diminishing sliver of the Canadian population for reasons explained. People aren’t going to self-deport themselves from careers. You would need enforceable criteria of body fat content to oversee this. First of all BMI is not a good measure of fitness, we had a guy call ranger rick that passed his US Army Ranger course could run 10 km in combat boots in under 45 mins, do well over 100 push ups, 25 pull ups, etc...the guy was a PT god, and he failed his BMI...Passing the current PT standards is a joke..i passed them with flying colors at 50 plus years old...There is no substitute from good diet and lots of PT...if you are not motivated to maintain that get another job...your a safety hazard to yourself and others. Then they will be released from the forces, look this is not new they have done this in the past, what is the point of having standards if they can not be maintained....soldiers know this is the red line don't cross it or lose you job, but today because of the shortages, people look the other way, which is why we have this issue right now...I find it funny that these obese people are few in numbers,in most combat arms units, and those that are obese can pass current PT standards...The problem today is PT time is being compromised due to shortage of people meaning there simply no time for PT in order to get jobs completed...and there is plenty of over time being done just to stay afloat... Those questions should be asked everyday before getting up and going to work, I'm i fit, can i accomplish all the requirements of my trade, can i pick up someone 250 lbs and run off the battlefield to get them to safety...can i get someone out of an armored vehicle in a crises, can i extract a unconscious pilot out of his cockpit under stress, can i lift a unconscious comrade up several fleets of stairs on a ship...or do i just listen and watch as they burn or drown...If the answer to these questions is NO, then you should be doing something about it, or you'll be told to do something about, it or face dismissal....nothing unconscious about it... cant pass the standard or fall behind on a run then someone is going to notice...and take action.. So thousands of kids enter the forces every year, and a chunk of them find out pretty quick it is not for them they do there first contract and then get out....The military is not for everyone, it takes large sacrifices just do do the job, time away training, on exercises,on tour, in every weather god can throw at them...you need to be motivated to do all that, or get out find a desk job on civvy street... They do have standards, nobody is enforcing them do to shortages of manpower...they are keeping everyone the good , bad, and ugly just to stay afloat...there is no such thing as over time pay, and a good chunk are working overtime to make deadlines, do you think they are getting rid of someone that can still function somewhat...nope..Once the solve the recruiting thing....standards will be enforced and those people not meeting them will be told become fit, or to leave...people's lives are on the line... Edited February 20 by Army Guy Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
SpankyMcFarland Posted February 20 Report Posted February 20 BMI is a first approximation of fatness and has its limitations. Among those soldiers over, say, 240 pounds, we’re generally not talking about Fijian rugby players with muscles on their muscles. One glance solves that problem. If not, a simple waist measurement can sort things out. The point I’m making is that excess weight is a pervasive problem in Canada and unfortunately it’s largely not under conscious control although it seems to be. Intensive screening of recruits, including a family history, would help here including awkward questions about family weight. 1 Quote
Army Guy Posted February 20 Report Posted February 20 6 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said: BMI is a first approximation of fatness and has its limitations. Among those soldiers over, say, 240 pounds, we’re generally not talking about Fijian rugby players with muscles on their muscles. One glance solves that problem. If not, a simple waist measurement can sort things out. The point I’m making is that excess weight is a pervasive problem in Canada and unfortunately it’s largely not under conscious control although it seems to be. Intensive screening of recruits, including a family history, would help here including awkward questions about family weight. BMI is not the standard the CF uses to access obesity, it may be a tool that some may use but it is not the standard, because to many factors in false positive readings... We know a good portion Canadians are overweight, Before when there was standards, during your first doctors exams if you were obese, you be told lose some weight come back later...Now every Canadian must be able to attempt joining they take almost anyone....during the first PT test if you can't make it your sent to fat camp, the standard is very very low.......here your given a diet plan and do PT several times a day until you can pass...after a full year, your given the heave hoe....released for failure to achieved basic pt test...BTW during your training PT are a regular intervals to ensure in the end you can maintain or achieve CF minimum standard.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
SpankyMcFarland Posted February 20 Report Posted February 20 (edited) 1 hour ago, Army Guy said: BMI is not the standard the CF uses to access obesity, it may be a tool that some may use but it is not the standard, because to many factors in false positive readings... We know a good portion Canadians are overweight, Before when there was standards, during your first doctors exams if you were obese, you be told lose some weight come back later...Now every Canadian must be able to attempt joining they take almost anyone....during the first PT test if you can't make it your sent to fat camp, the standard is very very low.......here your given a diet plan and do PT several times a day until you can pass...after a full year, your given the heave hoe....released for failure to achieved basic pt test...BTW during your training PT are a regular intervals to ensure in the end you can maintain or achieve CF minimum standard.... Many rugby/football players would ‘fail’ a BMI but it’s a relatively simple matter to see that a person has excess muscle rather than excess fat. In gridiron many of the offensive line players do seem to have both. Again, that’s obvious. Anyway, how one measures body fat is irrelevant and depends on the resources one has. Edited February 20 by SpankyMcFarland Quote
Army Guy Posted February 21 Report Posted February 21 Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
SpankyMcFarland Posted February 21 Report Posted February 21 My point: telling people to get thin will rarely make them thin because of how humans are wired. Unlike alcohol, you can’t give up food. Quote
Army Guy Posted February 21 Report Posted February 21 16 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said: My point: telling people to get thin will rarely make them thin because of how humans are wired. Unlike alcohol, you can’t give up food. The old army did not care what you thought, they gave you an order get thin, if you did not comply your were sent home...no arguing, it was that simple...each soldier is tasked with keeping themselves in shape, round is not the shape they are looking for... it is not the military's responsibility to keep you in shape...That's your choice... Today personal shortages are so great that standards are put aside, becasue they don't have the people to do day to day work let alone deployments, forcing them to work long hours to keep up...give you an example before a major exercise our mechanics would work maybe 12 to 16 hours a day to get our vehicles in working order....then spend the entire exercise working around most of the clock to keep them in that condition....add to this a severe shortage of men and women, and these hours get longer and longer...you need to be fit to allow your body to cope with these stresses....once these personal numbers get back on track your going to see a good portion of these people either get out or fired.... Military is unlike any other job...they don't ask anyone to do anything , they tell you, failure to compile results in a few things getting fired is one of them... charged , money taken from your check, or confined either in barracks or jail...most military people compile if you like your job....They are going to give you access to everything you need medical examinations, dietician advice, plus an experienced PT instructor....and your supervisor is going to make sure you make all these appointments, etc, etc, and provide you with the motivation your going to need...they will give you the time you need to get fit, or you'll be fired..you and your family will be moved back to place of recruitment, or you'll pay to have the movers move you where you want to go.. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
eyeball Posted February 21 Report Posted February 21 So let me get this straight. 1. We can't resist the Orange Blob because we're to fat. 2. If we had kept pace with military spending obligations we would, as part of the team, have very likely invested in our specialty, Arctic defence. 3. Assuming we had the numbers of fit people to fill the roles created by our investments they'd still be largely, no pun intended, useless - because the Arctic is not the direction the Blob is rolling in from. Have I got that about right? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Army Guy Posted February 22 Report Posted February 22 2 hours ago, eyeball said: So let me get this straight. 1. We can't resist the Orange Blob because we're to fat. 2. If we had kept pace with military spending obligations we would, as part of the team, have very likely invested in our specialty, Arctic defence. 3. Assuming we had the numbers of fit people to fill the roles created by our investments they'd still be largely, no pun intended, useless - because the Arctic is not the direction the Blob is rolling in from. Have I got that about right? We can't resist anyone that put some effort into attacking us....shit i remember the winnipeg floods taxed out the military and that's was when we were over 70,000 members...being fat is a circumstance you get when you sacrifice PT time for work time, and lower the training standards to get some people to join....This has been going on for years now, the media has been reporting it every week, your acting like your surprised...because you have not been listening like most Canadians... I've said this many times the US marine corp has more women in their organization than we have people....our Infantry corp numbers is in the low thousands... Our speciality has never been arctic defence...US and UK troops are better trained in those areas than we are....like everything else our artic defenses have been left to rot on the vine...a few years ago it was delegated to our Reserve forces...And if you think the regular force are equipped badly try the reserves it will make you sick....The reserve LDSH in PEI is an armored unit they drive G wagons ( jeeps)... NATO and the US chain of command are very interested in our arctic defence, Canada has not shown any interest so NATO trains others for that task...IN Alaska and other Arctic nations...... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
eyeball Posted February 22 Report Posted February 22 17 minutes ago, Army Guy said: Our speciality has never been arctic defence... I kind of figured it was peacekeeping. Anyhow if we've always been expected to field a full spectrum military capable of deploying anywhere around the planet I doubt 2% would have ever been enough. So...a massive borrowing and immediate buying spree on the basis of a national security emergency is the only option. The only problem I see is that arming ourselves so rapidly would likely cause Trump to invade us. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Venandi Posted February 23 Report Posted February 23 (edited) All IMO but: I think we are on the verge of arriving at a point (I call it Crazy Island) where multiple independent deficiencies coalesce into a perfect storm such that regeneration becomes problematic... it's a critical mass thing. I'm no longer convinced that we can even spend 2% or man what we buy with it. As a for instance, manning the P8 and new UAV/UAS is going to be challenging... and we should have had those things squared off YEARS ago. Our recruiting/training deficit now stands at a 16,500 shortfall with a maximum training capacity of 6000 (or so) per year, that keeps us slightly above attrition and retirements. Increasing training at this point impacts operational tempo and will likely cause more attrition as you burn out the limited operational capacity that still exists. This could be a book or a 50 page thread but all of it qualifies as a slow motion train wreck years in the making with no end of warnings along the track that said "danger ahead." Even with unlimited resources, out training, out manning and out equipping the existing deficits will take years of consistent effort and a level of public support that has previously proved elusive. The debate over having an SSN capability intrigues me to no end... it's like listening to doctors debate whether or not I should eat eggs. The chickens who lay the eggs are now urgently knocking on the hen house door and we can't seem to decide on what colour to paint the roosts. Actually, you don't want to paint them at all but arguing about paint palates with Herb Doggiedoo and Roboduh is polarizing and there are votes to be had by whipping that collection of fools into a frenzy. The question "WTF did you think was going to happen?" isn't sarcastic, facetious, or even humorous IMO, there was no other possible outcome and the idea that rapid regeneration would be of such concern to Trump that a US invasion becomes likely as a result of it is laughable. Arguably, it's the domain of people who played a starring role in creating the problem in the first place. Edited February 23 by Venandi 1 Quote
eyeball Posted February 23 Report Posted February 23 6 hours ago, Venandi said: The question "WTF did you think was going to happen?" isn't sarcastic, facetious, or even humorous IMO, there was no other possible outcome and the idea that rapid regeneration would be of such concern to Trump that a US invasion becomes likely as a result of it is laughable. I was raised watching Star Trek so on a pragmatic level I've always viewed our absorption into a "Federation" as being inevitable and in our best interest as Earthlings. As I've been saying for years get your silly countries off my planet. In the meantime I also support defending and promoting our natural community based governing values as opposed to the dark vision a bunch of newly federating oligarchs have for the future. Given the realignment of governing values going on in the world at the moment, and especially the rise of extreme parties that appear to support the alliance developing between Putin and Trump, it's not too far off the mark to say a proverbial struggle between good and evil is underway. You know what they say about the dark side of the force, it's not more powerful it's just easier. 6 hours ago, Venandi said: Arguably, it's the domain of people who played a starring role in creating the problem in the first place. I'm pretty sure that's a common refrain everyone in the universe hears. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
CdnFox Posted February 23 Author Report Posted February 23 2 hours ago, eyeball said: I was raised watching Star Trek so on a pragmatic level I've always viewed our absorption into a "Federation" as being inevitable and in our best interest as Earthlings. As I've been saying for years get your silly countries off my planet. In the meantime I also support defending and promoting our natural community based governing values as opposed to the dark vision a bunch of newly federating oligarchs have for the future. Given the realignment of governing values going on in the world at the moment, and especially the rise of extreme parties that appear to support the alliance developing between Putin and Trump, it's not too far off the mark to say a proverbial struggle between good and evil is underway. You know what they say about the dark side of the force, it's not more powerful it's just easier. I'm pretty sure that's a common refrain everyone in the universe hears. The federation didn't get rid of nations. The federation was more like the European Union. It worked because it respected the individuals and differences of various regions and allowed them their autonomy while still providing a common framework for them to operate under. What's your talking about is it hegemony Where your kind controls everything and everyone is beholden to it. The typical grand socialist Utopia vision that has been the inspiration for so many despots and dictators over the years. We get it. You hate the idea of other people having their own voice or their own opinions and you want everyone to come to heal under your particular vision. Good luck with that. Live long and bite me Quote There are two types of people in this world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data
eyeball Posted February 23 Report Posted February 23 14 minutes ago, CdnFox said: We get it. You hate the idea of other people having their own voice or their own opinions and you want everyone to come to heal under your particular vision. Which as I said are...our natural community based governing values.... Please either read what's written or fùck off. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
CdnFox Posted February 23 Author Report Posted February 23 7 minutes ago, eyeball said: Which as I said are...our natural community based governing values.... Sure. Hitler said pretty much the same thing. I seem to recall mao having a quote along those lines too. Quote There are two types of people in this world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data
eyeball Posted February 23 Report Posted February 23 13 minutes ago, CdnFox said: Sure. Hitler said pretty much the same thing. I seem to recall mao having a quote along those lines too. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
CdnFox Posted February 23 Author Report Posted February 23 19 minutes ago, eyeball said: Quote There are two types of people in this world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data
Legato Posted February 23 Report Posted February 23 1 hour ago, eyeball said: Which as I said are...our natural community based governing values.... Please either read what's written or fùck off. Your words...."As I've been saying for years get your silly countries off my planet." Replace "our" with "my" is what you mean. My way or the highway, that is what it sounds like. It's not your planet. 1 Quote
eyeball Posted February 23 Report Posted February 23 13 minutes ago, Legato said: Your words...."As I've been saying for years get your silly countries off my planet." Replace "our" with "my" is what you mean. No, I mean like this guy... Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
CdnFox Posted February 23 Author Report Posted February 23 10 minutes ago, eyeball said: No, I mean like this guy... Oh look, it's that thing where you have said something terribly stupid and haven't been called out you're going to try and pretend it was a joke hoping it will make you look less stupid. yeah not so much. Still stupid. Quote There are two types of people in this world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data
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