Do Leftists eventually turn Right?

[jefferiah]

Jesus chose fishermen, not Pharisees

[M.Dancer]

Jesus chose fishermen, not Pharisees

Saul

Joseph of Aramathia.....

[jefferiah]

Well how about this "God hid these things from the wise and learned and revealed them to little children.." or "God chose the simple things to shame the wise"

[Ladyjen]

Ladyjen, thats one of the smartest posts I've read on here since I joined.

Ladyjen are you a social worker?

Thank you Canadian Blue! I work with small business to access funding and business counseling.

[Canadian Blue]

It's because most people don't understand that you need all sides of the political spectrum to be involved in political life in order for life to run smoothly.

[Charles Anthony]

Ladyjen, thats one of the smartest posts I've read on here since I joined.

Ladyjen are you a social worker?

Thank you Canadian Blue! I work with small business to access funding and business counseling.

It's because most people don't understand that you need all sides of the political spectrum to be involved in political life in order for life to run smoothly.

For the life of me, I could have sworn you were being sarcastic!

[Remiel]

I will always be weighing down on the Left side of the teeter-totter, though how far I am from the axis may also go back and forth.

In any case, I do seem to remember reading once that 85% of people vote the same way as their parents, or that 50% of people have made up their mind as to who they vote for by the time they are 13, or something like that. I am rather foggy on the issue. If someone can remember the numbers more clearly, I'd be grateful.

[Ladyjen]

Ladyjen, thats one of the smartest posts I've read on here since I joined.

Ladyjen are you a social worker?

Thank you Canadian Blue! I work with small business to access funding and business counseling.

It's because most people don't understand that you need all sides of the political spectrum to be involved in political life in order for life to run smoothly.

For the life of me, I could have sworn you were being sarcastic!

Well as I am new here and am not familiar with personalities, I took Canadian Blue's post at face value. Excuse my ignorance.

[Canadian Blue]

Ladyjen, I agreed with your post, it wasn't out of sarcasm. If it was out of Sarcasm I'd have the rolling eyes icon in my message.

[Ladyjen]

Ladyjen, I agreed with your post, it wasn't out of sarcasm. If it was out of Sarcasm I'd have the rolling eyes icon in my message.

I really appreciate that! Thanks

[ClearWest]

As witnessed with the USSR, a long reign of communism resulted in enmasse human rights violations and extreme poverty.

Was their failure the result of a long reign-- or was it the result of a corrupt ideology?

[Ladyjen]

As witnessed with the USSR, a long reign of communism resulted in enmasse human rights violations and extreme poverty.

Was their failure the result of a long reign-- or was it the result of a corrupt ideology?

I am no expert on capitalism or communism, just lifelong observations.

IMO, it may have started out as somewhat altered from the true ideology and then became corrupt along the way. It is hard to judge just when that would have started as the Soviet Union was so secret, for so very long. My statement regarding enmasse human rights violations, was in reference to the fact that people were forbidden to leave the USSR and were executed if caught trying. They were denied basic freedom of speech and were harshly punished for even a whisper of desent. Who knows if true communism could ever make for a content and economicaly successful society? However, I do think that for this ideology to be fairly tested, it would have to involve the entire world as then there could be no sanctions imposed from countries that hold the resources, out of fear.

[August1991]

David Mamet, of all people, has an epiphany:

John Maynard Keynes was twitted with changing his mind. He replied, "When the facts change, I change my opinion. What do you do, sir?"

...

I took the liberal view for many decades, but I believe I have changed my mind.

As a child of the '60s, I accepted as an article of faith that government is corrupt, that business is exploitative, and that people are generally good at heart.

These cherished precepts had, over the years, become ingrained as increasingly impracticable prejudices. Why do I say impracticable? Because although I still held these beliefs, I no longer applied them in my life. How do I know? My wife informed me. We were riding along and listening to NPR. I felt my facial muscles tightening, and the words beginning to form in my mind: Shut the fuck up. "?" she prompted. And her terse, elegant summation, as always, awakened me to a deeper truth: I had been listening to NPR and reading various organs of national opinion for years, wonder and rage contending for pride of place. Further: I found I had been—rather charmingly, I thought—referring to myself for years as "a brain-dead liberal," and to NPR as "National Palestinian Radio."

...

I'd observed that lust, greed, envy, sloth, and their pals are giving the world a good run for its money, but that nonetheless, people in general seem to get from day to day; and that we in the United States get from day to day under rather wonderful and privileged circumstances—that we are not and never have been the villains that some of the world and some of our citizens make us out to be, but that we are a confection of normal (greedy, lustful, duplicitous, corrupt, inspired—in short, human) individuals living under a spectacularly effective compact called the Constitution, and lucky to get it.

For the Constitution, rather than suggesting that all behave in a godlike manner, recognizes that, to the contrary, people are swine and will take any opportunity to subvert any agreement in order to pursue what they consider to be their proper interests.

To that end, the Constitution separates the power of the state into those three branches which are for most of us (I include myself) the only thing we remember from 12 years of schooling.

...

I began reading not only the economics of Thomas Sowell (our greatest contemporary philosopher) but Milton Friedman, Paul Johnson, and Shelby Steele, and a host of conservative writers, and found that I agreed with them: a free-market understanding of the world meshes more perfectly with my experience than that idealistic vision I called liberalism.

Village Voice

Mamet's is an elegant if self-centered description of the path followed by others. I disagree with his emphasis on people being greedy and duplicitous. I don't think that the defining difference between the Left and the Right is perceptions of human motivation.

I also laughed about Mamet's reaction to NPR. He might have written this piece much earlier if he had had to listen to Michael Enright and Anna-Marie Tremonte on CBC instead.

[jdobbin]

I also laughed about Mamet's reaction to NPR. He might have written this piece much earlier if he had had to listen to Michael Enright and Anna-Marie Tremonte on CBC instead.

I have thought of Mamet as being right wing for many years now. What else would you make of his show The Unit which is a fairly jingoistic affair.

[MontyBurns]

All you lefties should come over here to the extreme right with me. Then you can have a blast watching all your enemies go down in flames such as gays, hippies, social justice groups and so on. You will get to laugh heartily as social programs get cut. So come over here! You know you want to!

[kuzadd]

Someone (Shaw, Clemenceau, Briand?) said that if you are not a socialist in your twenties, you have no heart. But if you are still a socialist in your forties, you have no brain.

My query is different, and objective. Which way do people tend to move generally? And among movers in either direction, who is "worse" (who as a new arrival becomes more Catholic than the Pope)?

Ex-Leftists who grow up and convert to the Right? Or ex-capitalists who convert to an understanding of existence?

And why do people move? (Were you once a Leftist, or a Conservative? If so, what made you change your opinion?)

left and right are bullshit labels, and that is all they are they deserve no credence whatsoever.

to identify someone as either /or , is to make it easier for the labeller to "deal" with the person labelled.

to label oneself as either/or is also easier, because it gives one an ideology already provided for them, requiring one to do less thinking and more following or conforming.

Edited March 12, 2008 by kuzadd

[jazzer]

I don't know what I am, and according to spiritual writer Eckhart Tolle, that's where I should be.

[BC_chick]

In my 20's I was a liberal-arts student. I was all about the poor, social-programs and curbing corporate greed and monopoly. Everyone told me to wait until I finish school, get a job and start paying taxes and I'll change my mind.

I finished school and got a job. My hard-earned tax-dollars going to social programs still didn't bother me because I never thought of my wages as gross salary, but in terms of net. It's easy to not miss something you never really had.

Now in my 30's, I have started a business. It's starting to hit me what paying taxes is really like because I actually see the money come into my hands and go. It's something tangible and it hurts to see it go.

But guess what? It doesn't hurt to see it go because I think of some welfare bum living in a subsidised housing on my tax dollars. It hurts to see it go because it's the corporate fat-cats and the politicians who have the resources to hide their money in off-shore bank accounts making every-day middle-class people like me have to pick up more than our fair share of the tab.

It's easy to blame welfare and other programs for the disadvantaged because they are so visible. Many of them may be lazy, but for some of them, it's nothing but being born in the wrong circumstances that has brought them to the point where they're at. On the contrary, none of the wealthy people who don't contribute their share of taxes are doing so because they have no choice. All, without exception, are doing so out of selfish greed.

IMO, people do become more tax-conscious as they get older. But that doesn't necessarily translate to becoming a "cold-hearted" fiscal conservative.

Edited to add: I do realise that the wealthy are paying a huge chunk of the nation's taxes. I am only talking about the taxes that they are NOT paying. If they were paying all that they're supposed to, it would bring down the tax rates for everyone. That's the paradox.

Edited March 13, 2008 by BC_chick

[buffycat]

In my 20's I was a liberal-arts student. I was all about the poor, social-programs and curbing corporate greed and monopoly. Everyone told me to wait until I finish school, get a job and start paying taxes and I'll change my mind.

I finished school and got a job. My hard-earned tax-dollars going to social programs still didn't bother me because I never thought of my wages as gross salary, but in terms of net. It's easy to not miss something you never really had.

Now in my 30's, I have started a business. It's starting to hit me what paying taxes is really like because I actually see the money come into my hands and go. It's something tangible and it hurts to see it go.

But guess what? It doesn't hurt to see it go because I think of some welfare bum living in a subsidised housing on my tax dollars. It hurts to see it go because it's the corporate fat-cats and the politicians who have the resources to hide their money in off-shore bank accounts making every-day middle-class people like me have to pick up more than our fair share of the tab.

It's easy to blame welfare and other programs for the disadvantaged because they are so visible. Many of them may be lazy, but for some of them, it's nothing but being born in the wrong circumstances that has brought them to the point where they're at. On the contrary, none of the wealthy people who don't contribute their share of taxes are doing so because they have no choice. All, without exception, are doing so out of selfish greed.

IMO, people do become more tax-conscious as they get older. But that doesn't necessarily translate to becoming a "cold-hearted" fiscal conservative.

Edited to add: I do realise that the wealthy are paying a huge chunk of the nation's taxes. I am only talking about the taxes that they are NOT paying. If they were paying all that they're supposed to, it would bring down the tax rates for everyone. That's the paradox.

That is one of the best posts here in a LONG time.

Very well said, and echoes my own sentiments and many others here too shy to speak up.

Thank you BC Chick!

[lukin]

Here is my political story. I am 33 years old, so I guess I'm a Generation X member.

I didn't pay much attention to politics during my early and mid teem years. I started university at 19 years of age. That is where I started to become interested in politics. I was quickly taken into the camp of a far left liberal progressive group. I liked their ideas. take from the rich give to the poor. I was naive, and didn't really understand what this meant, but it sounded good....help the less fortunate. Then things started to change.

Throughout that year I found this group to be very ignorant and mean to those who opposed them. They weren't interested in healthy debate. They ridiculed anyone who disagreed with them. They were more interested in protesting everything they disagreed with. Their protests were often malicious in nature. Obscene, immature name calling etc. For instance, anyone who opposed drug legalization was a control freak. Anyone who opposed abortion was a religious wing-nut. Anyone who didn't give any extra money they earned to the poor who chose not to work was a greedy capatilist. Anybody who got married was brainwashed by ridiculous tradition. Religion in their opinion was the root of all evil. Anyone who said they believed In God was preaching falsehoods. Yet, all they did was preach their brand of atheism.

The more I found out about these guys a and gals, the more I became disgusted. All of them lived at home, and felt that their parents owed it to them to pay for their way, because the way they saw it, their parents were baby boomers who were screwing up the country, and it was the parents who brought them into this world, and it should be them who provided for them as long as they needed it. These people strongly believed the government owed them. They felt that they should be able to become full-time protestors funded by the tax payer. The good intentions that I felt they had when I joined this group, turned out to be nothing more than anarchaic intentions. They called themselves the liberal progressives. They felt that there way of thinking will sweep through North America. This was back in 1994. I think that their way of thinking has made inroads into our society. That scares the hell out of me.

The point of the story, is that after meeting these people, I became a Conservative. It really opened my eyes. Now I know there are conservative nuts out there, and I don't agree with them, but they seem to be very unknown compared to this progressive movement that is in full force. These are the kind of people who run rabble.ca. That forum scares me. Barack Obama is very progressive. they are getting a stranglehold in North America.

I used to find the Liberal party to be very centrist. But I slowly see them veering further to the left to apease the "progressive" crowd.

! don't agree with everything the CPC does, but as a family person, with a job, I don't see any decent alternative.

Now that I am done, I leave the floor open to those of you who think I am some kind of right-wing zealot. I've been on both sides of the spectrum, and the right side scares me a lot less than the left side.

MERGED BY MODERATOR:

This post was the Opening Post of a thread entitled: How I became a Conservative. It has been merged into this previous thread.

Edited October 16, 2008 by Charles Anthony
merged thread

[cybercoma]

Great post. Most Canadians whether they're on the left or the right are really not far off from center and parties like the NDP in particular, would be well-served to take note of that.

[Who's Doing What?]

Here is my political story. I am 33 years old, so I guess I'm a Generation X member.

I didn't pay much attention to politics during my early and mid teem years. I started university at 19 years of age. That is where I started to become interested in politics. I was quickly taken into the camp of a far left liberal progressive group. I liked their ideas. take from the rich give to the poor. I was naive, and didn't really understand what this meant, but it sounded good....help the less fortunate. Then things started to change.

A "far left liberal progressive group"? So basically they were part of the "lunatic fringe". Extremism is not the answer in any form.

Throughout that year I found this group to be very ignorant and mean to those who opposed them. They weren't interested in healthy debate. They ridiculed anyone who disagreed with them. They were more interested in protesting everything they disagreed with. Their protests were often malicious in nature. Obscene, immature name calling etc. For instance, anyone who opposed drug legalization was a control freak. Anyone who opposed abortion was a religious wing-nut. Anyone who didn't give any extra money they earned to the poor who chose not to work was a greedy capatilist. Anybody who got married was brainwashed by ridiculous tradition. Religion in their opinion was the root of all evil. Anyone who said they believed In God was preaching falsehoods. Yet, all they did was preach their brand of atheism.

You must be new here. Everything you just said about your "friends" could be used to describe quite a few CPC supporters around here.

Disagree with something and you are an idiot.

These people think calling you an immigrant is an insult.

You really should have watched some of the question periods from the last Govt. The PM and his selected few attack dogs beahved this same way in the House of Commons.

Ah religion, the brainwashing of the masses. Don't think for yourself, because there is an allpowerful being out there who will look after you if you just give money to those who are spouting the gospel. I like some of the life lessons but don't tell me that an entity that has the ability to create the universe gives a rat's ass about my daily struggles.

The more I found out about these guys a and gals, the more I became disgusted.

Describes perfectly my sentiments about some of the True Blue around here. I would have voted CPC twice now if not for running into them.

All of them lived at home, and felt that their parents owed it to them to pay for their way, because the way they saw it, their parents were baby boomers who were screwing up the country, and it was the parents who brought them into this world, and it should be them who provided for them as long as they needed it.

Sounds like any spoiled univeristy kid who has had everything handed to them their whole life.

These people strongly believed the government owed them. They felt that they should be able to become full-time protestors funded by the tax payer. The good intentions that I felt they had when I joined this group, turned out to be nothing more than anarchaic intentions. They called themselves the liberal progressives. They felt that there way of thinking will sweep through North America. This was back in 1994. I think that their way of thinking has made inroads into our society. That scares the hell out of me.

Like I said you had become part of the "Lunatic Fringe". If you want to be scared try reading some of Harpers old speaches.

The point of the story, is that after meeting these people, I became a Conservative. It really opened my eyes. Now I know there are conservative nuts out there, and I don't agree with them, but they seem to be very unknown compared to this progressive movement that is in full force. These are the kind of people who run rabble.ca. That forum scares me. Barack Obama is very progressive. they are getting a stranglehold in North America.

Yes the Conservative nuts tend to keep things more confined to the back rooms because their ideal society is akin to something out of the dark ages. As for a stranglehold hold on North America, I take it you haven't looked down south much to the evangelical right in the States.

I used to find the Liberal party to be very centrist. But I slowly see them veering further to the left to apease the "progressive" crowd.

I doubt it. Those who want things further to the left generally end up with the NDP. After last night I think you will see the LPC head back towards the political centre.

! don't agree with everything the CPC does, but as a family person, with a job, I don't see any decent alternative.

Well no one can help what you see. I do agree that there is a lacking of decent alternatives in this country right now, no matter where you are in the political spectrum.

Now that I am done, I leave the floor open to those of you who think I am some kind of right-wing zealot. I've been on both sides of the spectrum, and the right side scares me a lot less than the left side.

Like I said, read some of Harpers old speaches, and hang around here for a few months. You may not change your mind on who to support but you will learn that most of what you said you didn't like about your university buddies comes from both the Left and Right.

[normanchateau]

I used to find the Liberal party to be very centrist. But I slowly see them veering further to the left to apease the "progressive" crowd.

How are they slowly veering to the left?

Paul Martin cut marginal income tax rates, eliminated the deficit and increased military spending.

Stephen Harper proposed corporate tax cuts and Dion and the Liberals voted for those tax cuts and still support those tax cuts.

Dion promised to cut personal income tax rates if elected.

Stephen Harper failed to cut personal income tax rates and increased government spending to unprecedented levels:

http://andrewcoyne.com/columns/2007/03/fla...ig-spenders.php

Harper's share of the popular vote went up only about 1% yesterday from 2006. Dion's declined far more and most of that support went to the NDP, Greens and Bloq. Do you think voters left the Liberals for those three parties because they see the Liberals veering left? Could it be instead that they abandoned Dion because they see him as veering right in propping up Harper's party?

[independent]

Great post. Most Canadians whether they're on the left or the right are really not far off from center and parties like the NDP in particular, would be well-served to take note of that.

I agree. Conservatives like too call the Liberals leftist to discredit them.

http://andrewcoyne.com/2006/01/harper-left-of-martin.php

Above is a 2006 article that suggests that Harper was actually too the left of the Paul Martin liberals. The Liberals are very solid in the center and have some right leaning members. Calling them leftist is an attempt too make them sound like they are the same as the NDP. If you look at thier platforms you will see that is far from the truth.

Edited October 15, 2008 by independent

[kengs333]

I agree. Conservatives like too call the Liberals leftist to discredit them.

http://andrewcoyne.com/2006/01/harper-left-of-martin.php

Above is a 2006 article that suggests that Harper was actually too the left of the Paul Martin liberals. The Liberals are very solid in the center and have some right leaning members. Calling them leftist is an attempt too make them sound like they are the same as the NDP. If you look at thier platforms you will see that is far from the truth.

Yeah, it's funny the antipathy towards the Liberals when they basically supported the Cons over the last two & a half years. Cut from the same mold and just wear different colours.