Why are Transgenders such a serious political issue in this election?

[impartialobserver]

5 minutes ago, User said:

How many more pages and threads do you and Herbie want to create defending this stuff?

I will gladly be there to call you guys out. 

You are truly comical.. thanks for the laugh. Keep responding.. someone has to care. 

[User]

4 minutes ago, impartialobserver said:

You are truly comical.. thanks for the laugh. Keep responding.. someone has to care. 

I did not start this thread pretending to not know why people care. I did not comment in this thread like you did projecting your own inability to discuss this impassionately. 

Just like the other thread where you had to bring up Drag Queens. 

You care, you just want to pretend like it isn't an issue because you only want what you want and don't want to have to defend it. 

[Michael Hardner]

On 2/11/2025 at 10:00 AM, User said:

1. I have also outlined this as well:

-Politicians working to normalize kids being trans
-Putting trans books in schools, the curriculum, policies to "affirm" children being trans in schools, even worse policies to hide this from parents, laws enacting these things
-Putting trans kids into girls sports, telling girls they have to compete against boys
-Putting trans kids into traditional girl spaces like bathrooms, locker rooms, etc... 
-Putting these messages into DEI training that is mandated into all government agencies
-Changing policies in the military to openly accept trans AND then also cover for their surgeries and other "affirming" care
-Putting trans prisoners into prisons with women where they are sexually assaulted and forcing tax payers to pay for their "affirming" care
-Forcing public officials to use any of the 1 million pronouns someone can choose for themselves, changing drivers licenses and other official documentation like birth certificates and passports to reflect a sex someone is not

2. When I keep pointing out that we are merely fighting back, I mean just that. All those things above are being pushed into society. 

3. No, not above it, but you were making the claim I might not be able to make dispassionate discussion. 

4. If you think I am using loaded phrases, then make that point when and where I do. I just explained my position on pushing above, nothing loaded about it. 

5.  We are already talking. If you have some kind of formality you wish to engage in here, then go ahead and explain what that is. 

6. Yes/No, and that has traditionally been dealth with for what it is, a mental issue to be treated as such, as opposed to the "gender affirming" stuff being pushed now that if a kid feels uncomfortable, then they must actually be trans and affirmed!
 

7. No, that a young child has no idea about these things and it is a crime that parents and others would be transing their young children even before adolescence.

Kids will play around thinking they are dogs, or other animals... or a unicorn. It doesn't mean we should immediately begin treating them like one. 

 

1. Ok, thanks for the clarity.  I'm in favour of some of this, not all.  

2. I guess we need to define 'fighting' then.  

3. OK - I haven't quoted all of your answers/responses but I wanted to acknowledge this one.  Thanks.

4. I like the clarity, and I still think that the term is loaded but at least I understand what you mean now.

5. Yes thank you.

6.  How it was dealt with traditionally shouldn't hold a lot of weight with how we deal with it in the present tense.  I didn't say anything about kids being uncomfortable, I was asking about kids being trans. 

7. Well, this is why I asked if you know anybody who is trans.  It probably seems like insanity if you read about it from some sources but my real world experience includes knowing some people who are much happier in another gender.  You think it's fake, and there's no discussion we can have on here that would convince you.

One other note - you say "kids" but that, I assumes, includes people who are 17 years and 364 days old right ?  

No 3 year old knows about this stuff, but 17 year olds certainly do.   

 

[User]

52 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Ok, thanks for the clarity.  I'm in favour of some of this, not all.  

Which do you support? Which do you oppose?

52 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

2. I guess we need to define 'fighting' then.  

Not really. This is all common metaphorical language used in society today. What is it you do not understand?

53 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

5. Yes thank you.

So... did you have some formality you expect here then or no? 

53 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

6.  How it was dealt with traditionally shouldn't hold a lot of weight with how we deal with it in the present tense.  I didn't say anything about kids being uncomfortable, I was asking about kids being trans. 

Why shouldn't it have any weight? You were the one who brought up their feeling comfortable. So, yes, you literally did say that:

"Do you believe that there are people who don't feel comfortable in their gender"

 So, in response to that, this is exactly why it makes sense to treat kids who are uncomfortable as having issues that can be addressed, not that they are the opposite sex than they are and should be treated as such and "affirmed" which is exactly why I pointed out that kids grow out of this. 

56 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

7. Well, this is why I asked if you know anybody who is trans.  It probably seems like insanity if you read about it from some sources but my real world experience includes knowing some people who are much happier in another gender.  You think it's fake, and there's no discussion we can have on here that would convince you.

I don't need to know anyone to hear people who have gone through this, read stories, etc... It is not an issue that if only I knew someone then all of a sudden I would totally understand that this 5 year old is really a girl trapped in a boys body and should be treated as such. 

I do not think these feelings are fake, I disagree with the treatment and how to respond. Of course the feelings are real. 

I know people who have feelings of suicide too, but that doesn't mean I agree with them that they are worthless and should kill themselves just because they feel that way. 

59 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

One other note - you say "kids" but that, I assumes, includes people who are 17 years and 364 days old right ?  

I mean a child as legally defined, someone under 18 years of age. 

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

No 3 year old knows about this stuff, but 17 year olds certainly do.   

Yes, they comprehend the concepts, but you are here arguing that if a 3 year old boy "feels" they are a girl, well, that is not insanity, oh no, nor should we treat it like a mental disorder like before, or something they will grow out of... oh no, we must affirm them! 

 

[herbie]

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

One other note - you say "kids" but that, I assumes, includes people who are 17 years and 364 days old right ?  

the law is the law is the law OINK OINK

My first wife was divorced, shotgun wedding. She was a week short of 16, he was two weeks past 18. Neither one a 'kid' in my books, both at worst pre-adults.

Like FFS they were both in the same Grade and class in school....

Edited February 13 by herbie

[User]

4 minutes ago, herbie said:

My first wife was divorced, shotgun wedding. She was a week short of 16, he was two weeks past 18. Neither one a 'kid' in my books, both at worst pre-adults.

Tell us more Herbie about your depravity. Just how young do you think it is OK to diddle children?

I am guessing a lot of fathers out there don't think it is OK for adult men to mess with their 15 year old daughters. 

 

[herbie]

Yes as I mentioned the law is the law is the law

OINK OINK OINK!

[CdnFox]

4 minutes ago, herbie said:

Yes as I mentioned the law is the law is the law

OINK OINK OINK!

There's no need to reply if you're actually out on a date.......

[Michael Hardner]

19 hours ago, User said:

1. Which do you oppose?

2.  So... did you have some formality you expect here then or no? 

3. Why shouldn't it have any weight? You were the one who brought up their feeling comfortable. So, yes, you literally did say that:

"Do you believe that there are people who don't feel comfortable in their gender"

 So, in response to that, this is exactly why it makes sense to treat kids who are uncomfortable as having issues that can be addressed, not that they are the opposite sex than they are and should be treated as such and "affirmed" which is exactly why I pointed out that kids grow out of this. 

4. I don't need to know anyone to hear people who have gone through this, read stories, etc... It is not an issue that if only I knew someone then all of a sudden I would totally understand that this 5 year old is really a girl trapped in a boys body and should be treated as such. 

I do not think these feelings are fake, I disagree with the treatment and how to respond. Of course the feelings are real. 

I know people who have feelings of suicide too, but that doesn't mean I agree with them that they are worthless and should kill themselves just because they feel that way. 

5. I mean a child as legally defined, someone under 18 years of age. 

6. Yes, they comprehend the concepts, but you are here arguing that if a 3 year old boy "feels" they are a girl, well, that is not insanity, oh no, nor should we treat it like a mental disorder like before, or something they will grow out of... oh no, we must affirm them! 

 

1. Forced affiliation, in bathrooms, lodging, or sports.  There shouldn't be a "rule" here but a conversation between affected parties as to what makes sense.  Also I think you can limit to 3 pronouns.

2. What we're doing is fine.

3. I didn't say "no weight" I said "not a lot".  I don't agree with your approach to treatment, which sounds like it's the traditional approach.

4. How do you know that ?  Getting information from a lot of sources is a good way to learn deeply about a topic.  Let me delve a little deeper - do you have friends/family/associates who are supportive of transgender affirmation as an approach for children or adults ?

5. So I'm sure you agree that using the term "children" in a complex discussion isn't helpful since that includes 3-year-olds and people 1 day short of 18 years old ?

6. You're mischaracterizing my response.   My 3-year old told me recently that they were the other gender... I laughed and said ok then... I didn't think they were "not ok" and the day continued as before.... I think most trans parents would do the same thing as I did...

[Michael Hardner]

18 hours ago, herbie said:

the law is the law is the law OINK OINK

My first wife was divorced, shotgun wedding. She was a week short of 16, he was two weeks past 18. Neither one a 'kid' in my books, both at worst pre-adults.

Like FFS they were both in the same Grade and class in school....

Sort of... 18 is not the legal age for medical decisions across the board.

Your example is .... interesting .... married highschool classmates...

[User]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

3. I didn't say "no weight" I said "not a lot".  I don't agree with your approach to treatment, which sounds like it's the traditional approach.

OK, so what is your approach?

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

4. How do you know that ?  Getting information from a lot of sources is a good way to learn deeply about a topic.  Let me delve a little deeper - do you have friends/family/associates who are supportive of transgender affirmation as an approach for children or adults ?

I know that the same way that I know jumping off a tall bridge will result in my death without having to experience it or witness it first hand. 

This whole line of argument continues to stem from your bad argument that I must somehow have first hand experience here, and I do not. You have yet to offer any reason as to why I do or how anything I have said is wrong because of that. 

Yes, I do know people who are 100% in the tank for transgender everything, waving the flag, weeping in despair over how awful it is that a boy pretending to be a girl can't destroy other real girls in physical competition anymore. 

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

5. So I'm sure you agree that using the term "children" in a complex discussion isn't helpful since that includes 3-year-olds and people 1 day short of 18 years old ?

No. I think it is pretty clear what is being said here. You may want to make the distinction here, feel free to do so, my point remains the same. 

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

6. You're mischaracterizing my response.   My 3-year old told me recently that they were the other gender... I laughed and said ok then... I didn't think they were "not ok" and the day continued as before.... I think most trans parents would do the same thing as I did...

We are not talking about what you would do though or what you think most would do (although I have no idea where you think that). I am talking about what is actually being done. I am also talking about your specific argument here as well, so, you balk at a 3 year old being affirmed, so tell me, when do you think affirming someone is OK then? Do you agree it is wrong to affirm a 3 year old?

[Michael Hardner]

Just now, User said:

1. OK, so what is your approach?

2. I know that the same way that I know jumping off a tall bridge will result in my death without having to experience it or witness it first hand. 

3. This whole line of argument continues to stem from your bad argument that I must somehow have first hand experience here, and I do not. You have yet to offer any reason as to why I do or how anything I have said is wrong because of that. 

4. We are not talking about what you would do though or what you think most would do (although I have no idea where you think that). I am talking about what is actually being done.

5. I am also talking about your specific argument here as well, so, you balk at a 3 year old being affirmed, so tell me, when do you think affirming someone is OK then? Do you agree it is wrong to affirm a 3 year old?

1. I'm not in the field, so I defer to the experts.  Psychology and mental health medicine and general medicine is working through this as we type.

2. Not about the 5 year old, then but a 17 year old ?  How do you know that contemporary approach to gender issues, from the medical community, is incorrect ?  You seem to say so.

3. I didn't say you must.

4. Whether or not these things are happening doesn't necessarily bode poorly for what professionals and the common response might be.  If people are overreacting to children making random statements about their gender, and getting medical people to make ill-considered responses then that could be abuse, and error and so on.  It doesn't mean that the overall approach is sound, you need more evidence of what's happening.  For that reason, I trust medical institutions for the most part.

5. By 17 they are for sure.  This is a kind of slippery slope discussion: 3 years old, no but 17 yes... so what about 13.  We may be arriving at an agreement point which is there's no one-size-fits-all solution.  I would definitely say it's wrong to "affirm" a 3-year old in any formal sense, or to punish them for saying something like that at 3 also.  They're 3.  Dr. Erica Anderson (a trans woman) explained the process at length to Jesse Singal in his podcast and that's where I first heard about the process.

[herbie]

4 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Your example is .... interesting .... married highschool classmates...

That could be criminals in the letter of the law...
And sadly as some puritanical zealots think  in their mind, are deviates. Teen age premarital sex, how ungodly!

The barbershop quartet sings: We took the fun out of fundamental.

[User]

1 hour ago, herbie said:

That could be criminals in the letter of the law...
And sadly as some puritanical zealots think  in their mind, are deviates. Teen age premarital sex, how ungodly!

The barbershop quartet sings: We took the fun out of fundamental.

Once again tell use Herbie, tell us how perverted you are, you already said 15 was old enough to have sex with an adult, so... what is your cut off?

 

[herbie]

I ain't the pervert buddy, you are according to social norms. You're as 1950s backwards and churchy as Blackbird.

Probably think asking the daughter's boyfriend his 'intentions' is more important than making sure your 16 yr old daughter is on the pill.

[CdnFox]

4 hours ago, User said:

Once again tell use Herbie, tell us how perverted you are, you already said 15 was old enough to have sex with an adult, so... what is your cut off?

 

1 hour ago, herbie said:

I ain't the pervert buddy, you are according to social norms. You're as 1950s backwards and churchy as Blackbird.

Probably think asking the daughter's boyfriend his 'intentions' is more important than making sure your 16 yr old daughter is on the pill.

 

It's worth mentioning that there is actually a huge cultural divide between Canada and America on this. Until relatively recently in our history the age of consent was 14 in Canada. Which meant a 14 year old girl could sleep with a 25 year old perfectly legally (there were other restrictions such as 'position of authority' etc that did apply but not age)

And even now we have the age of consent at 16 years old and below that we have the 5-year rule for 15 and 14, where it's not illegal as long as the two parties are within 5 years of age of each other. So for example a 15-year-old could sleep with a 20 year old or a 14 year old could sleep with a 19 year old. And for 12 and 13 we have a 2 year rule. 

But when they hit 16 they're good to go except for specific exceptions such as position of trust, etc. teacher can't sleep with a student till they're both older. 

Historically Canada has a lot more sexual liberty than the united states and the history of marrying younger that was reflected in our early laws.

It wouldn't be considered perverted in Canada for a 16 year old to sleep with a 20 year old and there is a strong emphasis on teaching kids early about birth control and the dangers of unwanted pregnancy rather than teaching abstinence. I often see things where somebody says that an adult slept with a 17 year old in the states and everybody considers it child molestation or the like and it's kind of funny because in Canada that would be very common. Adults over 20 sleeping with 16 year olds is certainly frowned upon and not encouraged but it's not illegal. 

Fun fact: Teen pregnacies in the US are still much much higher than Canada, tho they're getting better. So there does seem to be some benefit to teaching safe sex rather than no sex 

Adolescent fertility rates, 2000 to 2020 – The Health of Canada’s Children and Youth

Just thought I'd point out the cultural difference seeing as it seems to be rearing its ugly head here.

Edited February 15 by CdnFox

[User]

16 hours ago, CdnFox said:

It's worth mentioning that there is actually a huge cultural divide between Canada and America on this.

Ugh, I did not know this and it is even more disgusting than I thought, you guys only recently changed it to 16 too. 

OK, now I really do want Trump to invade. LOL

 

17 hours ago, herbie said:

I ain't the pervert buddy, you are according to social norms. You're as 1950s backwards and churchy as Blackbird.

Probably think asking the daughter's boyfriend his 'intentions' is more important than making sure your 16 yr old daughter is on the pill.

So tell us then, what is your cut off Herbie? Come on, don't be shy. You think its cool for adults to diddle 14 year olds? 13? 12? 

 

[CdnFox]

18 minutes ago, User said:

Ugh, I did not know this and it is even more disgusting than I thought, you guys only recently changed it to 16 too. 

 

 

Yep. Now that doesn't mean that a girl turns 16 and immediately jumps into bed with somebody, but at that point it's their choice and if that choice happens to be an older person as long as they are not one of the forbidden types such as a guardian or person of trust etc then they are free to do so.

It is often been said that Americans are loose with their violence and Canadians are loose with their sex.  Americans carry guns and we carry condoms. Etc etc it is true that Americans actually consider violence in movies less of a thing and Canadians consider sex in a movie less of a thing when it comes to age appropriate content. Different strokes for different folks I suppose. Well, perhaps that's not the best phrase to choose given the circumstances but you know what I mean

 

Quote

OK, now I really do want Trump to invade. LOL

LOL  well tell the boys to bring condoms if they do  

 

Like I said though, despite our lacks laws and despite it being less of a taboo, teenage pregnancies in Canada are actually about half of Americas and traditionally they've been more like 1/3.

 

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

OL  well tell the boys to bring condoms if they do

No kidding...According to available data, the United States generally has a higher rate of reported STDs compared to Canada, with the US often considered to have one of the highest among developed countries.

[herbie]

1 hour ago, User said:

So tell us then, what is your cut off Herbie? Come on, don't be shy. You think its cool for adults to diddle 14 year olds? 13? 12?

Don't be stupid.
The example I gave of my 1st wife was law in 1970. Two classmates of equal maturity that were forced to marry due to avoid criminal law. That's what 90% of your puritanical outlook actually accomplishes. Yet all you can think of is 60 yr old men sleeping with 12 year old.... you are the one sick in the head.

MOF using the example of a Prince the slept with a 17 yr, that would have been merely frowned on anywhere but America, the disgusting part is sex by using a position of influence and human trafficking.

You're nuts if you think life things change overnight on a particular calendar day, or your 17 yr old daughter can't date a 20 year old.

What's particularly offensive is turning a blind eye to a President that's an actual predator and rapist and lecturing others that they are immoral or unethical.

 

 

[herbie]

To conclude: transgenders affect neither of our health, wealth, employment, food, clothing or shelter concerns, nor any international or trade concerns and therefore are not political concerns. Especially so far as labelling them left or right.

[User]

31 minutes ago, herbie said:

Yet all you can think of is 60 yr old men sleeping with 12 year old.... you are the one sick in the head.

So, why do you keep avoiding the question then?

What is your cut off, a 59 year old sleeping with a 13 year old?

18 minutes ago, herbie said:

To conclude: transgenders affect neither of our health, wealth, employment, food, clothing or shelter concerns, nor any international or trade concerns and therefore are not political concerns. Especially so far as labelling them left or right.

Since you avoided it last time:
 

When trans people and folks like you demand we pretend they are something they are not... we can say no and give a shit. 

When trans people and folks like you demand we let men pretending to be women into their private spaces.... we can say no and give a shit. 

When trans people and folks like you demand we let men pretending to be women beat up women in physical sports competitions and steal their medals... we can say no and give a shit. 

When trans people and folks like you demand we let them lie to and push this madness onto children in schools, wanting to hide it from their parents... we can say no and give a shit. 

When trans people and folks like you want to butcher and mutilate children, drug them up, so they can appear to be something they are not... we can say no and give a shit. 

[Moonlight Graham]

On 2/11/2025 at 12:49 PM, eyeball said:

The discussion and question is about why that is such a serious political issue. It's because people like you make it one and refuse to be a more humane being about it.

It's a conflict of rights.  Some people want to let biological men (female in gender) able to compete in sports against biological women, and want to allow biological men (female in gender) able to enter change-rooms made for biological women.  Some people, including some biological women, naturally have a problem with that.  These aren't simple issues to solve, so people disagree.

Calling something "progress" is just hiding behind smug self-righteous labels, it doesn't actually address the issue.  What is "progress" is entirely subjective.

I don't even think a lot of people on the right and left are mature enough intellectually to debate these issues.  The right is filled with ignorant bigots and the left cares more about protecting the feelings of aggrieved groups than what is right.  The left almost always determines their position on issues based on what is least likely to offend the group involved that's seen as the most marginalized.  That's not an intellectually serious moral stance, it's just trying to not feel or look bad.

[Michael Hardner]

16 hours ago, eyeball said:

No kidding...According to available data, the United States generally has a higher rate of reported STDs compared to Canada, with the US often considered to have one of the highest among developed countries.

Adolescents are more uninformed about sex issues in the USA 

 

[User]

10 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

That's not an intellectually serious moral stance, it's just trying to not feel or look bad.

OK, so other than your saying it is a complex issue and labeling each side of the argument... what is your position?