Yakuda Posted October 3, 2024 Report Posted October 3, 2024 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Black Dog said: The state of "being alive" and the state of "consciousness" as we understand humans to possess it are two different things. It's not just existing and responding to stimuli like any amoeba, it's processing the world at a high level, creating and retaining memories, the ability to interpret complex information, form thoughts etc etc. Why does that matter? A one day old baby isnt "processing the world at a high level". Share with us the memories you created and retained when you were one day old. I cant wait to hear them. A one day old baby can't "...interpret complex information, form thoughts etc etc." Edited October 3, 2024 by Yakuda Quote
Black Dog Posted October 3, 2024 Report Posted October 3, 2024 2 minutes ago, Nationalist said: No...it's not. Great argument lmao. Quote "Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect." - Francis M. Wilhoit
Nationalist Posted October 3, 2024 Report Posted October 3, 2024 (edited) 1 minute ago, Black Dog said: Great argument lmao. Its sufficient. You've seen the definition...deal with it or don't. Edited October 3, 2024 by Nationalist Quote Its so lonely in m'saddle since m'horse died.
Yakuda Posted October 3, 2024 Report Posted October 3, 2024 2 minutes ago, Black Dog said: But nobody actually does that and no doctor will perform that procedure, dumbass. You might as well get mad that there's no laws preventing people from growing wings and flying to the f*cking moon. Irrelevant. It's allowed and you have no valid reason to oppose it There there is https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2023/05/dr-warren-hern-abortion-post-roe/674000/ I give you credit for how proud you are of being so stupid and morally depraved. Quote
Black Dog Posted October 3, 2024 Report Posted October 3, 2024 3 minutes ago, Yakuda said: Why does that matter? A one day old baby isnt "processing the world at a high level". Share with us the memories you created and retained when you were one day old. I cant wait to hear them. A one day old baby can't "...interpret complex information, form thoughts etc etc." Lol I like that we got the anti-abortion people saying newborn babies are no different from worms or bugs. ILike if that's so why do you care if they get aborted. 1 minute ago, Nationalist said: It sufficient. No it's not. Quote "Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect." - Francis M. Wilhoit
Yakuda Posted October 3, 2024 Report Posted October 3, 2024 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Black Dog said: Lol I like that we got the anti-abortion people saying newborn babies are no different from worms or bugs. ILike if that's so why do you care if they get aborted. No it's not. Well by your own words one day old babies cannot do any of the things you claim bestows "personhood" on a human being and therefore entitles them to life. You have no legitimate cause then to oppose infanticide. That makes you a morally deprived animal. That's not my fault. Edited October 3, 2024 by Yakuda Quote
Nationalist Posted October 3, 2024 Report Posted October 3, 2024 1 minute ago, Black Dog said: No it's not. Sure it is. The question is not "is abortion murder?" because it most certainly is. The question is "can you accept the murder?". For me...early term and extreme circumstances I can accept. I don't like any of it. But I can accept it. Quote Its so lonely in m'saddle since m'horse died.
CdnFox Posted October 3, 2024 Report Posted October 3, 2024 6 hours ago, Nationalist said: We've been over this whole "personhood" thing. By the end of the first trimester, the baby is aware. But you want to treat babies like a virus. I find that more than a little destestable. I hope your not a father. I swear to god my little brother was a virus till he was 23. If i'd have known i could kill him based on THAT.... 1 Quote
Yakuda Posted October 3, 2024 Report Posted October 3, 2024 Just now, Nationalist said: Sure it is. The question is not "is abortion murder?" because it most certainly is. The question is "can you accept the murder?". For me...early term and extreme circumstances I can accept. I don't like any of it. But I can accept it. They do like their euphemisms dont they? Abortion for murder. It's like someone is "unalive" not killed it dead. 1 Quote
Nationalist Posted October 3, 2024 Report Posted October 3, 2024 1 minute ago, CdnFox said: I swear to god my little brother was a virus till he was 23. If i'd have known i could kill him based on THAT.... Ya I had one o' those too... 1 Quote Its so lonely in m'saddle since m'horse died.
Black Dog Posted October 3, 2024 Report Posted October 3, 2024 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Yakuda said: Irrelevant. It's allowed and you have no valid reason to oppose it I oppose it because of cases like the one in the OP where busybody religious nutjiobs like you decide you know bette rthan doctors. Quote There there is https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2023/05/dr-warren-hern-abortion-post-roe/674000/ I give you credit for how proud you are of being so stupid and morally depraved. What do you think this proves lol. Some abortions occur after 21 weeks and someone has to do them. 13 minutes ago, Yakuda said: Well by your own words one day old babies cannot do any of the things you claim bestows "personhood" on a human being and therefore entitles them to life. You have no legitimate cause then to oppose infanticide. That makes you a morally deprived animal. That's not my fault. Neither do you, they're just worms to you. Anyway I've never argued about whether "personhood" or human consciousness entitles someone to life or not. Edited October 3, 2024 by Black Dog Quote "Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect." - Francis M. Wilhoit
Nationalist Posted October 3, 2024 Report Posted October 3, 2024 1 minute ago, Yakuda said: They do like their euphemisms dont they? Abortion for murder. It's like someone is "unalive" not killed it dead. It's a way for them to not face the gruesomeness of the act. They candy-coat it and wrap in a new name. That helps them deal with reality...which is something that consistently alludes Libbies. Quote Its so lonely in m'saddle since m'horse died.
CdnFox Posted October 3, 2024 Report Posted October 3, 2024 17 minutes ago, Black Dog said: The state of "being alive" and the state of "consciousness" as we understand humans to possess it are two different things. It's not just existing and responding to stimuli like any amoeba, it's processing the world at a high level, creating and retaining memories, the ability to interpret complex information, form thoughts etc etc. Utterly untrue. The two are somewhat unrelated. Which is why we are concerned about AI becomeing ACTUAL intelligence and how we will define their consciousness or when they achieve it, separate from life Nor do we attach the two to being human - a person in a coma is not conscious but they're not dead either and they're still a person with rights attached. At about 16 months a baby's brain "turns on" and begins to perform tasks. We're not talking about ransom neurons firing, it starts to regulate the heart beat etc. Most medical experts define death as when all brain activity stops, and for good reason. Even if the 'body' is alive by artificial means after that the person is considered dead and gone. You can do a heart transplant but not a brain transplant (more's the pity, we could fix you permanenty ) So if 'humanity' ends when the brain no longer functions at all then it is logical to say that it starts when the brain turns on. More than anything our brains define us as being a human being. It is a logical and reasonable and legally defensible answer to the question of when someone starts being a human rather than a lump of flesh So, back it off a little bit to make sure that we're not catching any fast Developers then somewhere in the 12 to 14 week range would make sense as a date after which no abortions should take place. Quote
Yakuda Posted October 3, 2024 Report Posted October 3, 2024 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Black Dog said: I oppose it because of cases like the one in the OP where busybody religious nutjiobs like you decide you know bette rthan doctors. What do you think this proves lol. Some abortions occur after 21 weeks and someone has to do them. Neither do you, they're just worms to you. No they aren't just worms but even if I actually thought that I still wouldn't want them killed. You on the other hand are the one that has decided they don't meet some arbitrary criteria for "personhood" so you can kill them. This crap you have convinced yourself of is just so you can feel better about yourself for killing babies. You have to create this elaborate ruse for yourself because deep down you know its evil to kill the most innocent people on the planet. Edited October 3, 2024 by Yakuda Quote
Black Dog Posted October 3, 2024 Report Posted October 3, 2024 2 minutes ago, CdnFox said: Utterly untrue. The two are somewhat unrelated. Which is why we are concerned about AI becomeing ACTUAL intelligence and how we will define their consciousness or when they achieve it, separate from life Me: "The state of life and the state of consciousness are not the same thing" You: "That's not true, they're unrelated!" Just arguing to argue, no thought involved. Quote So if 'humanity' ends when the brain no longer functions at all then it is logical to say that it starts when the brain turns on. More than anything our brains define us as being a human being. It is a logical and reasonable and legally defensible answer to the question of when someone starts being a human rather than a lump of flesh Not really, because then any creature with high level brain functions would be considered on the same level as a human, which would exclude you of course. Quote So, back it off a little bit to make sure that we're not catching any fast Developers then somewhere in the 12 to 14 week range would make sense as a date after which no abortions should take place. 96% of abortions occur before 16 week mark, the system regulates itself and no big government interference is required. Quote "Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect." - Francis M. Wilhoit
Hodad Posted October 3, 2024 Report Posted October 3, 2024 46 minutes ago, Nationalist said: Then put a sock on it and don't get pregnant. Simple as that. Now...I think we all agree on first trimester abortion and on extreme cases. And indeed that's how most states...and through Europe...deal with it. So deal with it. Nice try fck face. Sex--even consenting sex--is not a consent to simply endure whatever unwelcome consequences come from that act. These two posts together illustrate that pretty clearly. If something you don't want to happen ends up happening, you fix it. Quote
Black Dog Posted October 3, 2024 Report Posted October 3, 2024 4 minutes ago, Yakuda said: No they aren't just worms but even if I actually thought that I still wouldn't want them killed. You on the other hand are the one that has decided they don't meet some arbitrary criteria for "personhood" so you can kill them. I've never said anything of the sort. You're conflating two separate arguments. Quote This crap you have convinced yourself of is just so you can feel better about yourself for killing babies. You have to create this elaborate ruse for yourself because deep down you know its evil to kill the most innocent people on the planet. No I don't really care about the personhood thing I just think abortion should be legal in cases where women are pregnant and don't want to be anymore. Quote "Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect." - Francis M. Wilhoit
Guest Posted October 3, 2024 Report Posted October 3, 2024 16 minutes ago, CdnFox said: More than anything our brains define us as being a human being. You're not human o_O *backs away slowly* Quote
Yakuda Posted October 3, 2024 Report Posted October 3, 2024 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Hodad said: Sex--even consenting sex--is not a consent to simply endure whatever unwelcome consequences come from that act. These two posts together illustrate that pretty clearly. If something you don't want to happen ends up happening, you fix it. You just want to fix it through murder is that it? In what other areas of life is killing the allowable solution? Can I kill my boss if he fires me? That would definitely be something I don't want to happen that could end up happening. I don't consent to being fired just by taking the job. Edited October 3, 2024 by Yakuda Quote
Yakuda Posted October 3, 2024 Report Posted October 3, 2024 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Black Dog said: I've never said anything of the sort. You're conflating two separate arguments. No I don't really care about the personhood thing I just think abortion should be legal in cases where women are pregnant and don't want to be anymore. No here is what you said "The state of "being alive" and the state of "consciousness" as we understand humans to possess it are two different things. It's not just existing and responding to stimuli like any amoeba, it's processing the world at a high level, creating and retaining memories, the ability to interpret complex information, form thoughts etc etc." You clearly state that humans are capable of "...processing the world at a high level, creating and retaining memories, the ability to interpret complex information, form thoughts etc etc." One day old babies can't do any of that so they are not human, persons or whatever term suits your narrative in the moment.and therefore cane be "aborted". So you're ok if a woman is 8.5 months pregnant and has an abortion because she doesn't want to be pregnant any more? I can appreciate you're at least on the verge of being honest about this. Let's see if you can pull the trigger. Seems fitting given the topic. Edited October 3, 2024 by Yakuda Quote
Black Dog Posted October 3, 2024 Report Posted October 3, 2024 12 minutes ago, Yakuda said: No here is what you said You clearly state that humans are capable of "...processing the world at a high level, creating and retaining memories, the ability to interpret complex information, form thoughts etc etc." One day old babies can't do any of that so they are not human, persons or whatever term suits your narrative in the moment.and therefore cane be "aborted". Infants as young as two months old can detect faces and make out scenes, it's possible that young infants can too. It's possible short-term memories form earlier than previously thought as well. Regardless, I've never argued that the inability to do any of that stuff means one day old babies can be aborted, you're projecting nonsense again. Quote So you're ok if a woman is 8.5 months pregnant and has an abortion because she doesn't want to be pregnant any more? I can appreciate you're at least on the verge of being honest about this. Let's see if you can pull the trigger. Seems fitting given the topic. Sure, but that almost never happens without some extenuating circumstance such as a medical problem or the rare case where someone might not even know they're pregnant. The idea that we should have a law preventing something that essentially doesn't happen and will only serve to create barriers to accessing care for people who actually need it is insane to me. Quote "Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect." - Francis M. Wilhoit
Yakuda Posted October 3, 2024 Report Posted October 3, 2024 3 minutes ago, Black Dog said: Infants as young as two months old can detect faces and make out scenes, it's possible that young infants can too. It's possible short-term memories form earlier than previously thought as well. Regardless, I've never argued that the inability to do any of that stuff means one day old babies can be aborted, you're projecting nonsense again. Sure, but that almost never happens without some extenuating circumstance such as a medical problem or the rare case where someone might not even know they're pregnant. The idea that we should have a law preventing something that essentially doesn't happen and will only serve to create barriers to accessing care for people who actually need it is insane to me. You have no legitimate reason to oppose infanticide based on the criteria you laid out for us. I like how you mention a 2 month old baby and ignore the point at a one day old can't do any of the thing in your criteria. It not relevant what almost never happens the fact is it can happen and you're jumping through hoops to avoid confirming what we already know about you people. It must kill you to have to pretend you care about babies being killed up to the moment of birth and even after based on your own words. You can't even be intellectually honest with yourself Quote
Black Dog Posted October 3, 2024 Report Posted October 3, 2024 3 minutes ago, Yakuda said: You have no legitimate reason to oppose infanticide based on the criteria you laid out for us. I like how you mention a 2 month old baby and ignore the point at a one day old can't do any of the thing in your criteria. You're pretty dumb, huh? "Infants as young as two months old can detect faces and make out scenes, it's possible that young infants can too." Quote It not relevant what almost never happens the fact is it can happen and you're jumping through hoops to avoid confirming what we already know about you people. If you're talking about passing a law to stop something from happening, whether or not it happens is actually quite relevant. Quote It must kill you to have to pretend you care about babies being killed up to the moment of birth and even after based on your own words. You can't even be intellectually honest with yourself I don't care about babies being aborted up to the moment of birth and even after in the same way I don't care if Bigfoot's kids can afford to go to college in today's economy. It's not a real problem. Quote "Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect." - Francis M. Wilhoit
Yakuda Posted October 3, 2024 Report Posted October 3, 2024 1 minute ago, Black Dog said: You're pretty dumb, huh? "Infants as young as two months old can detect faces and make out scenes, it's possible that young infants can too." If you're talking about passing a law to stop something from happening, whether or not it happens is actually quite relevant. I don't care about babies being aborted up to the moment of birth and even after in the same way I don't care if Bigfoot's kids can afford to go to college in today's economy. It's not a real problem. So you are ok with babies being killed up to and after birth. Grow some f'ing testicles and answer the question but you won't because you have more morals or integrity. Quote
Black Dog Posted October 3, 2024 Report Posted October 3, 2024 Just now, Yakuda said: So you are ok with babies being killed up to and after birth. Grow some f'ing testicles and answer the question but you won't because you have more morals or integrity. Yes in the same way I'm ok with Bella choosing Edward over Jake in the Twilight Saga lmao. Because they're both fictional things you see. Quote "Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect." - Francis M. Wilhoit
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