The federal government plans to sell a 30% stake of Trans Mountain pipeline to indigenous people

[blackbird]

The federal government seems bent on perpetuating and building a country along racial lines.

We know this will be almost a give away.  No FN group has the billions of dollars to purchase even 30% of the what this pipeline is worth.  So it would be a huge gift at the expense of Canadian taxpayers who are paying tens of billions of dollars for the pipeline.   Is this really fair for the taxpayers who rightly own it in the name of the federal government?

news item on energynow website    

energynow.ca/2024/06/trans-mountain-looking-to-sell-30-stake-to-indigenous-groups-alberta-premier-says/#:~:text=Canada’s%20federal%20government%20is%20looking%20to%20sell%20a,pipeline%20system%20to%20indigenous%20owners%2C%20Alberta’s%20premier%20said.

Edited July 22 by blackbird

[herbie]

WTF you got against indigenous people? All the while unwittingly being racist by always claiming reverse racism.

They're offering it to them, not denying you squat. Are you the CEO of some huge corporation that wants to buy 100%?
No, you're just some guy like the rest of us. So what's it to you? You got the dough to personally buy 100% of the shares? You might have grounds to gripe then.

[Nationalist]

Well this sounds...stoopid. 

[CdnFox]

9 hours ago, blackbird said:

The federal government seems bent on perpetuating and building a country along racial lines.

We know this will be almost a give away.  No FN group has the billions of dollars to purchase even 30% of the what this pipeline is worth.  So it would be a huge gift at the expense of Canadian taxpayers who are paying tens of billions of dollars for the pipeline.   Is this really fair for the taxpayers who rightly own it in the name of the federal government?

news item on energynow website    

energynow.ca/2024/06/trans-mountain-looking-to-sell-30-stake-to-indigenous-groups-alberta-premier-says/#:~:text=Canada’s%20federal%20government%20is%20looking%20to%20sell%20a,pipeline%20system%20to%20indigenous%20owners%2C%20Alberta’s%20premier%20said.

This was the plan for a long time.  It crosses a lot of first nations land, if someone built a pipeline across my land i'd want to have a stake in it too  

This isn't one of those bad things, this is the correct way to get things done with first nations and development.  And you know i'm the first to complain about 'freebie givaways' to first nations. 

[blackbird]

51 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

This was the plan for a long time.  It crosses a lot of first nations land, if someone built a pipeline across my land i'd want to have a stake in it too  

This isn't one of those bad things, this is the correct way to get things done with first nations and development.  And you know i'm the first to complain about 'freebie givaways' to first nations. 

No I don't think it crosses a lot of FNs lands.   I don't know if it crosses any FN reserves.  Don't forget there are small FN reserves where some of the bands live.  Then there are what is called "traditional territory" which are vast areas of British Columbia that many of the first nations claim.  There are many FN bands claiming this territory which covers the whole of B.C.  If you examine certain historic rulings, FN do not have ownership or sovereignty over crown land.  This belongs to Canada in right of His Majesty.  This is part of B.C. and Canada.  It is not reverting to FN.  They never really "owned" or even occupied the vast areas that some of them now claim.  They will continue to claim thousands of square kilometers which there is no evidence they ever lived on or occupied.  But it is their bargaining chip to claim billions of dollars in compensation.  But for what?  The liberals and left have bought into this idea that we the settlers or colonizers owe everything to them.  I don't agree.  But this conflict will never end.  We the colonizers have a perfect right to be here and inhabit this part of the earth without having to pay anyone endlessly.

[blackbird]

8 hours ago, herbie said:

WTF you got against indigenous people? All the while unwittingly being racist by always claiming reverse racism.

They're offering it to them, not denying you squat. Are you the CEO of some huge corporation that wants to buy 100%?
No, you're just some guy like the rest of us. So what's it to you? You got the dough to personally buy 100% of the shares? You might have grounds to gripe then.

I think we the settlers and colonizes have paid more than our share to the FNs and continue to pay billions to support these people and provide housing, social services, health care, etc. etc.  Enough already.  Go get a job.

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

No I don't think it crosses a lot of FNs lands.   

It does  Lots and lots. 

Quote

I don't know if it crosses any FN reserves.  Don't forget there are small FN reserves where some of the bands live. 

It crosses land that is already expressly recognized as first nation in many places.

 

Quote

They never really "owned" or even occupied the vast areas that some of them now claim.

The courts recognize these specific lands so we're past that. 

Quote

But it is their bargaining chip to claim billions of dollars in compensation.  But for what? 

The use of and risk to the land they control.

Quote

The liberals and left have bought into this idea that we the settlers or colonizers owe everything to them.  I don't agree. 

I'm with you, they go way too far and doing so turns the first nations into essentially a child ethnicity that needs big uncle gov't to hold their hands for them becuase they can't build or solve anything on their own. 

But - this is not that.  This is a reasonable deal. "if you agree to the risks and problems with allowing this construction and transport of oil on your lands, we'll let you participate so you make money too and that can help you build a better future if you use it wisely." 

The gov't can force the issue by law but that's dumb.  better that everyone benefits and these projects are seen as net positives for all involved if you can reach a reasonable deal. 

[Nationalist]

4 hours ago, CdnFox said:

It does  Lots and lots. 

It crosses land that is already expressly recognized as first nation in many places.

 

The courts recognize these specific lands so we're past that. 

The use of and risk to the land they control.

I'm with you, they go way too far and doing so turns the first nations into essentially a child ethnicity that needs big uncle gov't to hold their hands for them becuase they can't build or solve anything on their own. 

But - this is not that.  This is a reasonable deal. "if you agree to the risks and problems with allowing this construction and transport of oil on your lands, we'll let you participate so you make money too and that can help you build a better future if you use it wisely." 

The gov't can force the issue by law but that's dumb.  better that everyone benefits and these projects are seen as net positives for all involved if you can reach a reasonable deal. 

But will they use it "wisely"? History tells us they won't. I fail to understand what natives have against being Canadian.

Originally the deal was they wanted nothing to do with the colonizers. That didn't last long before they demanded "perks". 

We want immigrants to assimilate and become Canadians. Yet we allow the natives to skirt assimilation. Why? Do the natives not have any patriotism for Canada? It appears not. So why do we consistently cow to them?

The average Canadian will see benefits from the pipelines. Why do natives need extra benefits?

[blackbird]

7 hours ago, CdnFox said:

It crosses land that is already expressly recognized as first nation in many places.

That is doubtful. One or two FNs don't own land like that stretching the length and route of the pipeline.  If you can give an article proving it, post it.  There are a couple FN bands that own a tiny bit of the land the pipeline crosses, maybe a few hundred acres or hectares.  They are using that to try to become Saudi Arabia billionaires.  The pipeline is over a 1000 km long and they have no rights to claim ownership of it.  If they own a few km of land the pipeline crosses, they might be entitled to a small payment for rent.  That's all. 

The fact is the FN groups that want ownership of the TMX are in Saskatchewan, Alberta, and B.C.  They do not own the land.  But they see a goldmine and believe the government wants to get rid of it.  So they are asking for 51% share of the TMX pipeline. 

Trans Mountain pipeline: Why some First Nations want to stop it — and others want to own it | CBC News

The TMX pipeline is worth over 30 billion dollars which is the property of the Canadian taxpayers.  There is no reason on earth why we should just hand it over to FNs for nothing so that handfuls of FN leaders can become millionaires or billionaires.  That is what they want it for.  They know it is producing hundreds of millions of dollars and they want that money flowing to them.  The Canadian government is crazy to think of giving it to them.  The FN do not have that kind of money.  Yet here they are begging to be given a pipeline worth billions of dollars.

 

7 hours ago, CdnFox said:

The courts recognize these specific lands so we're past that. 

That is false.  B.C. has not resolved land claims for most of the province.  You are obviously just making things up as you go.  There are a large number of FNs in B.C. that have claimed vast areas of the province as their traditional territory but this has never been accepted by governments as their land.  It is only a bargaining ploy by FNs.  The FNs are only a small percentage of the population who live throughout B.C.,  about 5% of the population. The claims overlap between some FNs and cover the whole province.  Canada is country of 40 million people and only 5% are FN. They are not going to have ownership of all the land or large swaths of it.  They are not going to have ownership of the pipelines either unless our governments have completely gone mad.  The taxpayers paid for the TMX pipeline, which is costing over 30 billion dollars.  There is some movement to give them a small percentage of resource revenue in some places.  But they want to become billionaires like the kings and princes in Saudi Arabia who control the oil industry of the middle east.  What a joke.

Edited July 23 by blackbird

[CdnFox]

4 hours ago, Nationalist said:

But will they use it "wisely"? History tells us they won't. I fail to understand what natives have against being Canadian.

Originally the deal was they wanted nothing to do with the colonizers. That didn't last long before they demanded "perks". 

We want immigrants to assimilate and become Canadians. Yet we allow the natives to skirt assimilation. Why? Do the natives not have any patriotism for Canada? It appears not. So why do we consistently cow to them?

The average Canadian will see benefits from the pipelines. Why do natives need extra benefits?

Almost certainly not.  But that's their choice. 

When i buy something from a store i don't worry about whether or not the salesperson will use the commission wisely.  They had something of value that they owned, I wanted it, so it's the right thing to do to give them fair compensation for it and it's up to me as to how i use the item and up to them how they spend the profit. 

As to assimilation, that debate was held a long time ago. Actually specifically using the word - there came a time when it was considered how best to proceed and for better or worse it was decided that assimilation would not be the policy. It's been argued that the residential school program was a later attempt to at least partially assimilate the first nations but generally the policy has been "mostly peaceful" co-existence.  Untying  that now would be pretty hard unless both sides wanted it pretty bad. 

Quote

The average Canadian will see benefits from the pipelines. Why do natives need extra benefits?

Because its using land to which they have title or legal interest.  It's not ALL natives everywhere, it's the ones who are directly impacted by the project. 

They are going to also bear the risk of an oil spill, and the existing pipeline has spilt over the years so it's a fair concern. 

The first nations risk their land being contaminated but they get money to help build their future and protect their area, the pipeline companies risk their money but they get willing partners and still make fat cash moving the oil, higher capacity means that the oil companies can sell more of their product to various markets, and of course the gov'ts rack up big fat tax revenues and in the case of alberta royalties. 

As long as nobody is greedy or stupid everyone wins. 

[Moonbox]

19 hours ago, herbie said:

They're offering it to them, not denying you squat. Are you the CEO of some huge corporation that wants to buy 100%?

Where's the money coming from?  How are these indigenous groups going to come up with the +$10B this 30% stake would be worth?  

Are we supposing that they have that squirreled away somewhere?  🙄

[blackbird]

13 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Because its using land to which they have title or legal interest. 

You don't appear to know what land they have title to.  They don't have title to the land the pipeline is on except possibly in a very small area where the pipeline might be crossing some private property.  Can you tell us where this land they own is exactly and give any evidence?

[blackbird]

The FNs activists in Saskatchewan, Alberta, and B.C. don't own any land the pipeline is on but see a chance to get ten or fifteen billion dollars or more out of the Canadian taxpayers and control over a huge oil pipeline shipping oil internationally.  What about the 95% of the Canadian population who paid for this pipeline and deserve to be compensated for its existence?  FN leaders know the federal government is extremely naive and will give away land and natural resource control that Canadians own if they get the chance.  This pipeline is paid for and owned by the Canadian taxpayers.  It is costing over 30 billions dollars and will generate millions of dollars in revenue carrying oil from the Alberta oil patch to the shipping port down near Vancouver BC.  These natives are not dumb.  They know when they see a chance to get great wealth from the liberal/NDP governments.  They want to become Saudi princes over the oil industry in Canada.  They have no money but that won't slow them down.  The government already said they want these people to take over the pipeline.  What more could they ask for?  

"

LeBourdais, 55, represents the Western Indigenous Pipeline Group — a coalition of First Nations located along the Trans Mountain route in British Columbia that is determined to purchase the pipeline from the federal government.

The group wants a 51 per cent stake."

Trans Mountain pipeline: Why some First Nations want to stop it — and others want to own it | CBC News

Edited July 23 by blackbird

[Nationalist]

39 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Almost certainly not.  But that's their choice. 

When i buy something from a store i don't worry about whether or not the salesperson will use the commission wisely.  They had something of value that they owned, I wanted it, so it's the right thing to do to give them fair compensation for it and it's up to me as to how i use the item and up to them how they spend the profit. 

As to assimilation, that debate was held a long time ago. Actually specifically using the word - there came a time when it was considered how best to proceed and for better or worse it was decided that assimilation would not be the policy. It's been argued that the residential school program was a later attempt to at least partially assimilate the first nations but generally the policy has been "mostly peaceful" co-existence.  Untying  that now would be pretty hard unless both sides wanted it pretty bad. 

Because its using land to which they have title or legal interest.  It's not ALL natives everywhere, it's the ones who are directly impacted by the project. 

They are going to also bear the risk of an oil spill, and the existing pipeline has spilt over the years so it's a fair concern. 

The first nations risk their land being contaminated but they get money to help build their future and protect their area, the pipeline companies risk their money but they get willing partners and still make fat cash moving the oil, higher capacity means that the oil companies can sell more of their product to various markets, and of course the gov'ts rack up big fat tax revenues and in the case of alberta royalties. 

As long as nobody is greedy or stupid everyone wins. 

Meh...none of it ever made sense to me.

[blackbird]

The TMX pipeline apparently crosses the Whispering Pines/Clinton "claimed" territory.  Actually it crosses an Indian Reserve (#4) 35 km north of the city of Kamloops.  There is apparently a map of this IR somewhere, but I can't find it.   The search AI comes up with a little information saying it is 35 km north of Kamloops and says there is a map but for some reason does not show the map.  In any case, if it crosses an IR it would likely be a small distance of uninhabited wilderness.  This is just a phony scheme to claim 15 billion dollars from Canadians and take over control of the pipeline which is ludicrous.  Funny how the FN activists across western Canada have jumped on the band wagon to obtain 30 or 51% ownership of the pipeline and become millionaires or billionaires at taxpayer expense.

Edited July 23 by blackbird

[blackbird]

Just found it on wikipedia.  The Whispering Pines/Clinton Indian Band has several reserves.  One of them is 35 km north of Kamloops BC and the size of it is given on Wikipedia.  This is reserve no.4 and is probably the one the TMX pipeline is crossing.

"Whispering Pines Indian Reserve No. 4, W side of the North Thompson River, N of Heffley Creek, 494.40 ha."

"

There are the following Indian Reserves under the administration of the Whispering Pines/Clinton Indian Band:^[1]

• Clinton Indian Reserve No. 1
• Clinton Indian Reserve No. 2
• Clinton Indian Reserve No. 2A
• Kelly Creek Indian Reserve No. 3, on left bank of the Fraser River one mile N. of the mouth of Kelly Creek, 1.40 ha. 50°58′00″N 121°53′00″W^[2]
• Whispering Pines Indian Reserve No. 4, W side of the North Thompson River, N of Heffley Creek, 494.40 ha. 50°59′30″N 120°14′25″W^[3]
• Whispering Pines/Clinton Indian Band - Wikipedia

494.40 ha equals about 4.94 square km or 5 square km.  That means the pipeline probably crosses only a few km of Reserve No.4.  The whole pipeline is about 1150 km long.  This crossing reserve no.4 of couple km is insignificant.  It is certainly no justification for claiming billions of dollars in shares or 30% to 51% of the pipeline.

Edited July 23 by blackbird

[herbie]

15 hours ago, blackbird said:

think we the settlers and colonizes have paid more than our share to the FNs and continue to pay billions to support these people and provide housing, social services, health care, etc. etc.  Enough already.  Go get a job.

Giving them a say about their lands costs nothing.

Bigotry based on finances is even more disgusting. Get a job my ass. Go hire one, pay their moving expenses, build a university a quick bus ride away like they did for me and you.

 

[herbie]

4 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Where's the money coming from?  How are these indigenous groups going to come up with the +$10B this 30% stake would be worth?  

Are we supposing that they have that squirreled away somewhere?  🙄

Nobody else does either.
Do you automatically assume they're going to be 'given' the money to do so and not borrow against their budgets like every other organization?
Then you're falling into the same pigeonholing prejudices (myths) as these other guys.

[eyeball]

4 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Where's the money coming from?  How are these indigenous groups going to come up with the +$10B this 30% stake would be worth?  

Are we supposing that they have that squirreled away somewhere?  🙄

It'll be financed with future royalties would be my guess.

[CdnFox]

5 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Meh...none of it ever made sense to me.

If making sense was a requirement for political decision this would be a very very very different world   

[Moonbox]

8 minutes ago, eyeball said:

It'll be financed with future royalties would be my guess.

No doubt something like that - a total sweetheart deal where the money is lent to them for nothing, to buy something we financed, where they'll pay off the loan at guaranteed rates and zero risk of loss. 

Sounds about right.  

[Nationalist]

2 hours ago, herbie said:

Giving them a say about their lands costs nothing.

Bigotry based on finances is even more disgusting. Get a job my ass. Go hire one, pay their moving expenses, build a university a quick bus ride away like they did for me and you.

 

If they live with the rest of us, all this can be easily done.

[blackbird]

22 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Giving them a say about their lands costs nothing.

You think all the land the pipeline is on belongs to them?  Obviously you don't have a clue.

If you think the whole country belongs to them, you better pack your bags and move somewhere else.  You will be paying FNs rent to live here if we followed your ideas.

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

No doubt something like that - a total sweetheart deal where the money is lent to them for nothing, to buy something we financed, where they'll pay off the loan at guaranteed rates and zero risk of loss. 

Sounds about right.  

In exchange for the use of land they have a legal interest in. 

It's a good deal for them, sure but it's not a complete giveaway or anything. And if it encourages other major projects to move forward in the future then thats' not a horrible thing. 

[blackbird]

The reality of life in British Columbia is that railways, highways, cities, towns, farmlands exist on what many native bands claim as their traditional territory.  If Canada or British Columbia were to recognize such claims to the land, Canada as a sovereign nation would cease to exist.  5% of the population claiming ownership of the land that the other 95% of Canadians live on?  Hardly a rational position to take.  European settlers started coming to north America approximately 500 years ago or more.  They eventually settled in the various parts of the country.  Natives existed in small areas in the various regions.  But there was so much uninhabited land that there were few disputes in Canada.  The U.S. was different.  When Americans settled in the U.S. starting on the east coast, friction developed over the land and conflict continued as the west was settled.  There were the Indian wars.

That scenario did not happen in Canada fortunately.  Settlement was relatively peaceful.