The Ten Commandments to be posted in Louisiana schools, lefties go bananas

[Deluge]

11 hours ago, Aristides said:

Notice the bullets coming from the anti-gun nut side. 

Nice fail, hypocrats. lol

Edited June 21, 2024 by Deluge

[Hodad]

14 hours ago, West said:

Exactly. 

Plus the whole separation of church and state argument being brought in is pretty ignorant of the facts. Nobody is codifying Christianity as the official religion of the state which is really what separation of church and state is. 

It IS NOT grounds for eliminating Christianity or any other religion from the public square and shoving them into a corner so they can't support policy based on their religious belief

No, they very much are codifying Christianity as the official religion of the state. They are using taxpayer dollars to promote a specific religious message from a specific religious text (KJV, I imagine)--one that explicitly rejects other gods--and forcing it to be displayed before children all day, every day at school. That's a farking bonkers, batshit crazy violation of the establishment clause. 

The crazier part is that they think they can get away with it. The worrying part is that with this court, it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility. Any other court in the past century it wouldn't be a question, but this incarnation is political and perverse. That's why they're taking such a big swing.

Edited June 21, 2024 by Hodad

[Yakuda]

On 6/20/2024 at 1:17 AM, West said:

https://apnews.com/article/louisiana-ten-commandments-displayed-classrooms-571a2447906f7bbd5a166d53db005a62?taid=66731eff5988a9000164aaff&utm_campaign=TrueAnthem&utm_medium=AP&utm_source=Twitter

Who would've thought telling people not to steal or murder would be such a controversial topic? 

Woke rainbow flags? Yes. Telling people not to mess around with another person's spouse? Nah

This is a great thing for America 

[West]

2 minutes ago, Hodad said:

No, they very much are codifying Christianity as the official religion of the state. They are using taxpayer dollars to promote a specific religious message from a specific religious text (KJV, I imagine)--one that explicitly rejects other gods--and forcing it to be displayed before children all day, every day at school. That's a farking bonkers, batshit crazy violation of the establishment clause. 

The crazier part is that they think they can get away with it. The worrying part is that with this court, it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility. Any other court in the past century it wouldn't be a question, but this incarnation is political and perverse. That's why they're taking such a big swing.

So? 

You are only bothered because it's Christianity. They push all sorts of religious teaching, such as mindfulness, in schools

[Yakuda]

4 minutes ago, Hodad said:

No, they very much are codifying Christianity as the official religion of the state. They are using taxpayer dollars to promote a specific religious message from a specific religious text (KJV, I imagine)--one that explicitly rejects other gods--and forcing it to be displayed before children all day, every day at school. That's a farking bonkers, batshit crazy violation of the establishment clause. 

The crazier part is that they think they can get away with it. The worrying part is that with this court, it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility. Any other court in the past century it wouldn't be a question, but this incarnation is political and perverse. That's why they're taking such a big swing.

No is required to believe in or follow the 10 commandments. It's mindless drives to suggest this establishes a religion. 

[Hodad]

Just now, West said:

So? 

You are only bothered because it's Christianity. They push all sorts of religious teaching, such as mindfulness, in schools

Unless you think you're a god, mindfulness isn't religious at all. It's simple introspection. Maybe look for a valid point to make. 

[West]

3 minutes ago, Hodad said:

Unless you think you're a god, mindfulness isn't religious at all. It's simple introspection. Maybe look for a valid point to make. 

😄

I'm laughing at your ignorance

Edited June 21, 2024 by West

[Hodad]

1 minute ago, Yakuda said:

No is required to believe in or follow the 10 commandments. It's mindless drives to suggest this establishes a religion. 

Lol. No one can "require" anyone to believe or follow the 10 commandments. That's literally impossible. And it's also not what the establishment clause proscribes.

The government should use taxpayer money to promote any religion. In constitutional terms, they should not further the establishment of said religion. The government should not force people to consume religious messages. Period. For lots of reasons evident with even a rudimentary logical exercise, but also in plain writing in and around our constitution. 

You simply cannot have freedom of religion in an environment in which the government promotes a religion. "Freedom of" and "freedom from" are two sides of the same coin, and have been since this nation was founded.

[West]

10 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

This is a great thing for America 

I agree. We need more religious teachings in our schools. I think not murdering or banging your neighbors wife are good morals to live by. 

I also appreciate some aboriginal teachings as well which I've had the opportunity to sit on. They talk about the creator and give good teachings on that. 

Edited June 21, 2024 by West

[Hodad]

2 minutes ago, West said:

😄

I'm laughing at your ignorance

My expectations for you are already very low, but I think they may yet be too high. You're just chattering away without a cogent thought to share. It's a weird hobby. 

[West]

Just now, Hodad said:

My expectations for you are already very low, but I think they may yet be too high. You're just chattering away without a cogent thought to share. It's a weird hobby. 

No the point is clear. They already talk about religious teachings, whether it be the creator giving us the medicine wheel, or others in school already. 

They aren't forcing you to convert to their religion. I don't see what the issue is here. 

[Hodad]

2 minutes ago, West said:

No the point is clear. They already talk about religious teachings, whether it be the creator giving us the medicine wheel, or others in school already. 

They aren't forcing you to convert to their religion. I don't see what the issue is here. 

Discussing comparative religion in an anthropological sense is academic and healthy. They are not teaching or promoting those religions. 

And yes, they very much ARE trying to convert kids-- or more accurately promote a singular religion at truth. And worse, doing it in schools, which are supposed to be reserved for the dissemination of true and valuable information. 

Imagine for a moment that the government of BFE (or wherever you live) passed a law that said that you would help fund the creation of posters that said "Muhammad is the one true prophet of god." And that these posters MUST be displayed in classrooms, and the your children and your neighbors' children and every little person in your province had to be exposed to that message all day, every day at school. 

Would you then argue that the government is not trying to indoctrinate or convert people? Would you support and cheer for that?

 

[West]

1 minute ago, Hodad said:

Discussing comparative religion in an anthropological sense is academic and healthy. They are not teaching or promoting those religions. 

And yes, they very much ARE trying to convert kids-- or more accurately promote a singular religion at truth. And worse, doing it in schools, which are supposed to be reserved for the dissemination of true and valuable information. 

Imagine for a moment that the government of BFE (or wherever you live) passed a law that said that you would help fund the creation of posters that said "Muhammad is the one true prophet of god." And that these posters MUST be displayed in classrooms, and the your children and your neighbors' children and every little person in your province had to be exposed to that message all day, every day at school. 

Would you then argue that the government is not trying to indoctrinate or convert people? Would you support and cheer for that?

 

They are giving elders room to give a spiritual teaching in a classroom as part of a curriculum. 

You are essentially telling kids that only certain beliefs are acceptable while the Christian kids beliefs are evil. 

Edited June 21, 2024 by West

[Hodad]

Just now, West said:

They are giving elders room to give a spiritual teaching in a classroom as part of a curriculum 

I dare you to answer the question honestly. 

 

And I have no idea what you are talking about, but are they "giving elders" to opportunity tell kids what they, the elders, believe, as part of a pluralistic study of religions and cultures in the world. Do they read Greek and Roman mythology? Hindu mythology?

This is not even a particularly nuanced point. There is a massive, obvious difference between teaching kids that Christian mythology is ABC, Jews believe DEF, Muslims believe HIJ, etc. That is important information to understand that there are different cultures around the world who believe different things and here are the ways that those beliefs shaped those cultures. That is NOT promoting those religions as truth. It's simply teaching kids about other cultures. 

[West]

6 minutes ago, Hodad said:

I dare you to answer the question honestly. 

 

And I have no idea what you are talking about, but are they "giving elders" to opportunity tell kids what they, the elders, believe, as part of a pluralistic study of religions and cultures in the world. Do they read Greek and Roman mythology? Hindu mythology?

This is not even a particularly nuanced point. There is a massive, obvious difference between teaching kids that Christian mythology is ABC, Jews believe DEF, Muslims believe HIJ, etc. That is important information to understand that there are different cultures around the world who believe different things and here are the ways that those beliefs shaped those cultures. That is NOT promoting those religions as truth. It's simply teaching kids about other cultures. 

What is your point? 

If it was part of the curriculum for an evangelical pastor to give a teaching on the ten commandments as part of the curriculum would that be better for you?

Your assertion is false. This policy does not impose an official religion which is what the constitution forbids. It does not mean that a Christian must stay silent in the public square.

Edited June 21, 2024 by West

[Hodad]

14 minutes ago, West said:

What is your point? 

If it was part of the curriculum for an evangelical pastor to give a teaching on the ten commandments as part of the curriculum would that be better for you?

 

My point is abundantly clear. As part of a unit of world cultures and religions, that's fine. Pluralism was never a problem. That's dramatically different. We belive/they believe vs you must believe. Can you not spot the difference?

Quote

Your assertion is false. This policy does not impose an official religion which is what the constitution forbids. It does not mean that a Christian must stay silent in the public square.

It does, indeed use the power of the government to literally force religious directives on children. That's literally and factually and explicitly what it does. 

And you are dodging the question about Muhammad because you KNOW that's the case. 

Christians can speak. The government can't speak to tell people to be Christian. Again, that's a HUGE difference? You can't tell the two apart?

 

[West]

37 minutes ago, Hodad said:

My point is abundantly clear. As part of a unit of world cultures and religions, that's fine. Pluralism was never a problem. That's dramatically different. We belive/they believe vs you must believe. Can you not spot the difference?

It does, indeed use the power of the government to literally force religious directives on children. That's literally and factually and explicitly what it does. 

And you are dodging the question about Muhammad because you KNOW that's the case. 

Christians can speak. The government can't speak to tell people to be Christian. Again, that's a HUGE difference? You can't tell the two apart?

 

Where we differ is probably on your interpretation. 

I do not see this as any different than posting confuscious quotes or having an elder come in and give a medicine wheel teaching. 

Christianity has been the target of frivolous lawsuits by the left wing. Even the president in his most recent SOTU said that he was going to target evangelicals. This is a bold statement and is welcome given the obvious push to rid the Public square of Christianity 

[Rebound]

2 hours ago, West said:

But they do.. thats the point. 

Posting and teaching 10 commandments is no different than teaching mindfulness. 

They push dogma all the time. 

You can be a Buddhist and you can teach your mindfulness 

Tell us the meaning of the first two commandments. I’m guessing that you’re so religious that you’ll have to look them up. 

Edited June 21, 2024 by Rebound

[West]

17 minutes ago, Rebound said:

Tell us the meaning of the first two commandments. I’m guessing that you’re so religious that you’ll have to look them up. 

You are offended by a teaching there's only one God and that a piece of wood isn't it?

[Hodad]

1 hour ago, West said:

Where we differ is probably on your interpretation. 

I do not see this as any different than posting confuscious quotes or having an elder come in and give a medicine wheel teaching. 

Confucianism is not really a religion, certainly not a deistic one. Some people would argue that it has elements of spiritualism, but WTF does that even mean? And I challenge you to find a single Confucius quote in any classroom anywhere that is religious in nature, let alone "government mandated" Confucius quotes. You're talking nonsense.

What you are advocating is worlds apart. Night and day. Apples and watermelons. What you want is for the goernment  to send explicitly and exclusively religious messages to every child, every hour, of every day about the "one true god."

The truth is that you CAN understand the difference between these things. You are making specious arguments in and attempt to justify an end you desire, but you DO know the difference. Which is why you refuse to answer the theoretical about Muhammad. 

 

[West]

5 minutes ago, Hodad said:

Confucianism is not really a religion, certainly not a deistic one. Some people would argue that it has elements of spiritualism, but WTF does that even mean? And I challenge you to find a single Confucius quote in any classroom anywhere that is religious in nature, let alone "government mandated" Confucius quotes. You're talking nonsense.

What you are advocating is worlds apart. Night and day. Apples and watermelons. What you want is for the goernment  to send explicitly and exclusively religious messages to every child, every hour, of every day about the "one true god."

The truth is that you CAN understand the difference between these things. You are making specious arguments in and attempt to justify an end you desire, but you DO know the difference. Which is why you refuse to answer the theoretical about Muhammad. 

 

I'm not really advocating anything specific 

I'm just pointing out that eastern spiritualism (religion) as well as others are already embedded in current school curriculum

How you can sit there and say that's okay because xyz then turning around and telling Christians they must stay out of the school is baffling and straight up discrimination 

[Rebound]

2 hours ago, West said:

You are offended by a teaching there's only one God and that a piece of wood isn't it?

So you can’t tell us what the first two commandments mean? Why do you think they belong in schools if you can’t tell us what they mean? 

[West]

20 minutes ago, Rebound said:

So you can’t tell us what the first two commandments mean? Why do you think they belong in schools if you can’t tell us what they mean? 

I just did in layman's terms. 

[CdnFox]

11 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

The State can and does convey and educate students on the morality of the commons.  Indeed if we couldn't, how could we elevate the nation and community values as being worthwhile.

What we can't do is elevate Deism or aspects of it such as sabbaths or cultural prohibitions.

 

 

You can't have it both ways. Seeing as religious belief is directly tied into morality for all those who are religious if the state teaches morality they must inherently teach religious values as well.

As to where we would teach it if it wasn't in the school the answer is pretty obvious. We would teach it at home, we would teach you in the communities, we would teach it at the churches, we would teach it in exterior social events. The idea that the school is the only place that morality can be learned is crazy.

[West]

3 hours ago, CdnFox said:

You can't have it both ways. Seeing as religious belief is directly tied into morality for all those who are religious if the state teaches morality they must inherently teach religious values as well.

As to where we would teach it if it wasn't in the school the answer is pretty obvious. We would teach it at home, we would teach you in the communities, we would teach it at the churches, we would teach it in exterior social events. The idea that the school is the only place that morality can be learned is crazy.

All these Anti semites opposed to the Jewish law of Moses is sad