robosmith Posted June 14 Report Share Posted June 14 Supreme Court strikes down Trump's federal ban on bump stocks Quote The U.S. Supreme Court struck down the federal ban on bump stocks Friday, declaring that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives exceeded its authority when it banned the devices on grounds they convert otherwise legal semi-automatic weapons into illegal machine guns. The vote was 6-3, with the court’s three liberals in angry dissent. Writing for the court’s conservative supermajority, Justice Clarence Thomas noted that a semi-automatic rifle equipped with a bump stock is not a "machine gun" because it does not fire more than one shot "by a single function of the trigger," as the statute requires. He added that even if it could, it would not do so “automatically.” He wrote that the ATF exceeded its statutory authority by classifying bump stocks as machine guns. In a concurring opinion, Justice Samuel Alito wrote that "the Congress that enacted" the law at issue here "would not have seen any material difference between a machinegun and a semiautomatic rifle equipped with a bumpstock. But the statutory text is clear, and we must follow it." He added that Congress could — if it wanted — amend the law. The question before the court was whether a bump stock converted a semi-automatic weapon into a machine gun. The court said it does not. President Trump ordered the ATF to ban the sale and possession of bump stocks in 2018 after a single gunman in Las Vegas, using multiple guns modified by bump stocks, killed 60 people and wounded 400 more — all in the space of 11 minutes. Machine guns have been illegal in the U.S. since 1934, almost a century, and Congress has twice amended the National Firearms Act to say that machine gun parts themselves count as machine guns. In REALTY a bump stock does convert a semi-automatic weapon into a machine gun. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 14 Report Share Posted June 14 24 minutes ago, robosmith said: In REALTY a bump stock does convert a semi-automatic weapon into a machine gun. No, it doesn't. You have no understanding of how firearms function, how bump stocks function, or what the terms are to describe a semi-automatic firearm vs a machine gun. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebound Posted June 14 Report Share Posted June 14 15 minutes ago, User said: No, it doesn't. You have no understanding of how firearms function, how bump stocks function, or what the terms are to describe a semi-automatic firearm vs a machine gun. 800 rounds a minute is 799 rounds a minute more than the writers of the Second Amendment were aware of. Federal Law defines an automatic weapon and a bump stock does not meet that definition. However, a bump stock is not an “arm,” either, and therefore it should not be protected by the Second Amendment. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robosmith Posted June 14 Author Report Share Posted June 14 35 minutes ago, User said: No, it doesn't. You have no understanding of how firearms function, how bump stocks function, or what the terms are to describe a semi-automatic firearm vs a machine gun. You have NO UNDERSTANDING of my understanding. AR's with bumpstocks perform substantially the same as machine guns. Duh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 14 Report Share Posted June 14 13 minutes ago, Rebound said: 800 rounds a minute is 799 rounds a minute more than the writers of the Second Amendment were aware of. First, this has nothing to do with this discussion. Second, at the time of the 2nd Amendment, knowledge existed of repeating firearms. There was the Belton Gun and the Girardoni rifle... among others. Third, the concept of advancements in weaponry, including firearms, was well known. There is a reason they used "arms" instead of single-shot, muzzle-loading muskets when writing the Second Amendment, just like they didn't write the First Amendment only to include quill ink pens and parchment paper. 19 minutes ago, Rebound said: Federal Law defines an automatic weapon and a bump stock does not meet that definition. However, a bump stock is not an “arm,” either, and therefore it should not be protected by the Second Amendment. This case had nothing to do with the 2nd Amendment. It had to do with the ATF rewriting federal rules on interpreting what federal law defined as a machine gun. This ruling had to do with that process. If Congress wants to pass a law banning bump stocks, they certainly can and would almost certainly be upheld in the courts as Constitutional to do so. 3 minutes ago, robosmith said: You have NO UNDERSTANDING of my understanding. AR's with bumpstocks perform substantially the same as machine guns. Duh You are dishonestly changing your argument now. You did not claim they performed substantially the same as machine guns. You claimed that a bump stock converts them into machine guns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robosmith Posted June 14 Author Report Share Posted June 14 4 minutes ago, User said: First, this has nothing to do with this discussion. Second, at the time of the 2nd Amendment, knowledge existed of repeating firearms. There was the Belton Gun and the Girardoni rifle... among others. Third, the concept of advancements in weaponry, including firearms, was well known. There is a reason they used "arms" instead of single-shot, muzzle-loading muskets when writing the Second Amendment, just like they didn't write the First Amendment only to include quill ink pens and parchment paper. This case had nothing to do with the 2nd Amendment. It had to do with the ATF rewriting federal rules on interpreting what federal law defined as a machine gun. This ruling had to do with that process. If Congress wants to pass a law banning bump stocks, they certainly can and would almost certainly be upheld in the courts as Constitutional to do so. You are dishonestly changing your argument now. You did not claim they performed substantially the same as machine guns. You claimed that a bump stock converts them into machine guns. Substantially the same performance as machine guns makes them machine guns. Duh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 14 Report Share Posted June 14 Just now, robosmith said: Substantially the same performance as machine guns makes them machine guns. Duh No, it doesn't. Those are entirely different comments you made, and now you are just trying to mash them together. Can you ever just be more honest? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Posted June 14 Report Share Posted June 14 2 hours ago, User said: No, it doesn't. You have no understanding of how firearms function, how bump stocks function, or what the terms are to describe a semi-automatic firearm vs a machine gun. Exactly. Discussing firearms with a lefty is a frustrating task as most of them are ignorant. I personally believe bump stocks aren't really beneficial to anything but whatever. Go shoot some cans or whatever just don't be a crazy person and take out a movie theater with it 1 hour ago, User said: No, it doesn't. Those are entirely different comments you made, and now you are just trying to mash them together. Can you ever just be more honest? The answer is no 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebound Posted June 14 Report Share Posted June 14 2 hours ago, West said: Exactly. Discussing firearms with a lefty is a frustrating task as most of them are ignorant. I personally believe bump stocks aren't really beneficial to anything but whatever. Go shoot some cans or whatever just don't be a crazy person and take out a movie theater with it The answer is no Well if it’s you or your family that goes to a country music festival and gets mowed down like those people in Las Vegas, I guess you’ll just happily celebrate the Constitutionality of the whole thing. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted June 14 Report Share Posted June 14 6 hours ago, robosmith said: Supreme Court strikes down Trump's federal ban on bump stocks In REALTY a bump stock does convert a semi-automatic weapon into a machine gun. no, in reality a bump stock allows you to squeeze the trigger really fast. That isn't a machine gun. Which is why it lost. Having said that it allows for a performance similar to a machine gun and should be allowed to be restricted in the same way. But if i'm not mistaken that happens at the state level in the states? There are states where you can buy a machine gun i believe. 6 hours ago, User said: No, it doesn't. You have no understanding of how firearms function, how bump stocks function, or what the terms are to describe a semi-automatic firearm vs a machine gun. Ahhh i see you were already educating him before i wrote my reply 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted June 14 Report Share Posted June 14 35 minutes ago, Rebound said: Well if it’s you or your family that goes to a country music festival and gets mowed down like those people in Las Vegas, I guess you’ll just happily celebrate the Constitutionality of the whole thing. This is the problem with the kind of limited understanding that people have about guns. It wasn't the bump stocks that made that situation deadly, and frankly just using those same rifles and semi-automatic mode with a slightly different configuration probably would have led to more casualties. Arguably a slightly different setup as far as cartridge a platform goes would have been even worse. For that matter driving a large moving van for the crowd probably would have made things worse as we have seen in other examples. People who know nothing of firearms tend to think that somehow a fully automatic machine gun is the most lethal thing imaginable and slaughters people as fast as the bullets come out of the barrel. In reality they are usually less lethal than well aimed semi-automatic fire. You will never put an end to the violence of crazy people by attempting to control which tool they are going to use to slaughter. We have seen major mass murderers using knives, trucks, bombs and fire, even poison gas. Not to mention the number one mass murder tool as far as body count goes in the united states, airplanes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted June 15 Report Share Posted June 15 5 hours ago, User said: No, it doesn't. Those are entirely different comments you made, and now you are just trying to mash them together. Can you ever just be more honest? One man killed 61 and wounded 413 in Las Vegas using an AR-15 with a bump stock. Its about time you started being honest 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted June 15 Report Share Posted June 15 11 minutes ago, Aristides said: One man killed 61 and wounded 413 in Las Vegas using an AR-15 with a bump stock. Its about time you started being honest One man killed 86 people and wounded of 434 in France using a truck. It's about time YOU started being honest. You don't care about how many died or suffered in the slightest. You care about virtue signaling. And no he didn't kill anyone with a bump stock. He killed them with a rifle. And would have killed them with a rifle without the bump stock. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Posted June 15 Report Share Posted June 15 2 hours ago, Rebound said: Well if it’s you or your family that goes to a country music festival and gets mowed down like those people in Las Vegas, I guess you’ll just happily celebrate the Constitutionality of the whole thing. Hey man I dont support crazy people shooting up a music festival. You however have not condemned the rioting and the subsequent propaganda from 2020 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatomontes99 Posted June 15 Report Share Posted June 15 You guys are wasting all your time debating an aspect of this case that was ancillary. The ATF did not have authority to create law [Full Stop]. Machine guns have nothing to do with this because this isn't a machine gun like device. If anything, it simulates full auto. There's a difference and it is very important. Like them or hate them, the law must be made by congress. The ATF did not follow the law. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 15 Report Share Posted June 15 1 hour ago, Aristides said: One man killed 61 and wounded 413 in Las Vegas using an AR-15 with a bump stock. Its about time you started being honest What does this have to do with anything I was saying here or show how I was not being honest? That is rhetorical, it doesn't have anything to do with what I was saying and I have been honest this whole time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robosmith Posted June 15 Author Report Share Posted June 15 7 hours ago, User said: No, it doesn't. Those are entirely different comments you made, and now you are just trying to mash them together. Can you ever just be more honest? My posts are ALWAYS completely honest. I'm sorry you FAILED to understand the equivalence I thought was simple enough it didn't have to be explained. Now I know that NOTHING is simple enough for you to understand. 6 hours ago, West said: Exactly. Discussing firearms with a lefty is a frustrating task as most of them are ignorant. I personally believe bump stocks aren't really beneficial to anything but whatever. Go shoot some cans or whatever just don't be a crazy person and take out a movie theater with it The answer is no The answer is you FAIL to understand, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robosmith Posted June 15 Author Report Share Posted June 15 1 hour ago, West said: Hey man I dont support crazy people shooting up a music festival. You however have not condemned the rioting and the subsequent propaganda from 2020 But you DO support crazy people having access to machine guns. 🤮 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 15 Report Share Posted June 15 2 minutes ago, robosmith said: My posts are ALWAYS completely honest. I'm sorry you FAILED to understand the equivalence I thought was simple enough it didn't have to be explained. Now I know that NOTHING is simple enough for you to understand. You are still not being honest now. This: "In REALTY a bump stock does convert a semi-automatic weapon into a machine gun. " Does not equal this: "AR's with bumpstocks perform substantially the same as machine guns. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robosmith Posted June 15 Author Report Share Posted June 15 37 minutes ago, gatomontes99 said: You guys are wasting all your time debating an aspect of this case that was ancillary. The ATF did not have authority to create law [Full Stop]. Machine guns have nothing to do with this because this isn't a machine gun like device. If anything, it simulates full auto. There's a difference and it is very important. Like them or hate them, the law must be made by congress. The ATF did not follow the law. Really? What's the difference? It looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck; IT'S A DUCK. Duh 1 minute ago, User said: You are still not being honest now. This: "In REALTY a bump stock does convert a semi-automatic weapon into a machine gun. " Does not equal this: "AR's with bumpstocks perform substantially the same as machine guns. " It has ALL the functionality of a machine gun, so it's a machine gun. The details of the mechanism don't matter when it comes to KILLING PEOPLE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 15 Report Share Posted June 15 2 minutes ago, robosmith said: It has ALL the functionality of a machine gun, so it's a machine gun. The details of the mechanism don't matter when it comes to KILLING PEOPLE. Now, you are back to the same original stupidity as before. That is not the definition of a machine gun. Functioning similar to a machine gun, doesn't make something a machine gun. Words have meanings. You can run people over with a car, too; that doesn't make a car a machine gun. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted June 15 Report Share Posted June 15 25 minutes ago, gatomontes99 said: If anything, it simulates full auto. For that matter so does your thumb and your pants pocket. Kids have been playing around with bumpfiring since semi-automatics were available. Hook a thumb through your belt loop, pull the gun forward with your finger on the trigger and voila. With just a little practice you can bump fire any semi auto gun as long as it's got a little recoil . You can make a rocker switch in a few seconds too with an elastic band and some paper. I even saw a mini gatling gun lever device that mounts on the trigger guard and rapidly pulls the trigger as you rotate it. Hell just learn to pull the trigger fast. That's all the bumpfire is doing. If you learn to shoot 'mad minute ' style with your middle finger and drop that trigger under 3 lbs you can get insanely fast. Here's a vid of Miculek shooting a bump stock vs his normal semi auto rig. Now he's a professional shooter but he normally only shoots revolver. The bump stock jams regularly on him. That is a common problem with bumpfire devices of any type. It does NOT magically turn the gun into full auto. His own gun shoots faster than most people think of a 'machine gun' as being and does so with extreme accuracy. THis whole thing is just utter nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted June 15 Report Share Posted June 15 (edited) 29 minutes ago, User said: Now, you are back to the same original stupidity as before. That is not the definition of a machine gun. Functioning similar to a machine gun, doesn't make something a machine gun. Words have meanings. You can run people over with a car, too; that doesn't make a car a machine gun. An AR15 with a bump stock increases its rate of fire up to 800 rounds per minute. A M16 rate of fire on full auto is 700 - 800 rounds per minute. So yes, it does make it a machine gun. A gun can't can't drive you to work, your kid to school, yourself on vacation or to the store and it can't deliver your Skip the Dishes, Amazon purchases or get you an Uber or cab. It won't delver all the goods and services you need to live to the places you can get them. This absurd comparison is very tired. Edited June 15 by Aristides Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted June 15 Report Share Posted June 15 14 minutes ago, robosmith said: Really? What's the difference? It looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck; IT'S A DUCK. Duh Robo - it is a huge difference. Bumpfires are toys. They do not perform the same as a machine gun. They cause jams a LOT. Accuracy goes right out the window. Even once you're used to them they are finicky as hell. That's why teh shooter had 10 guns. A shooter firing a regular AR will tend to hit more targets more effectively in less time than with a bump stock. Bump stocks are fun at the range where you can stand still and you're not panicking or jacked on adrenaline and you have ideal conditions. They are NOT helpful in actual tense situations where you are switching targets fast and you're freaked out. 3 minutes ago, Aristides said: An AR15 with a bump stock increases its rate of fire up to 800 rounds per minute. No it does not. Ever shot one? I have. Under perfect ideal conditions it might for a VERY BRIEF PERIOD but they are far too finiky. I guarantee the vast majority of practiced shooters can get off more rounds with a well tuned 'regular' ar and be far more accurate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Posted June 15 Report Share Posted June 15 Who's the ignoramus that's stating a bump stock would allow you to fire 800 rounds a minute? Your rifle would melt down long before that happens. The hyperbole is ill informed and dishonest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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