Zombies in schools

[betsy]

About 4 years ago, a mother of a 8 year old boy (who came regularly as an after-school kid), asked me if he can come to my daycare tomorow (PD day) and stay the whole day. When I said it was okay, she then told me that she'll make sure he gets his medication so he'll behave well. This was news to me. I never saw him mis-behave unnaturally while at the daycare after school.

The mom explained that at school, he is very active and overly "sensitive" that he easily cries when upset....and the teacher said he seemed to be suffering from ADD (Attention-deficit-something)...and that he will have to be on Ritalin.

I told mom about my observation, that yes he is an active boy....but nothing unusual for a boy his age. That it's normal for children to get rambunctious sometimes, and so far, he listens when I tell him to settle down. Mom said his doctor did not agree that he should be on Ritalin...but the teacher wants him to be on it.

Mom noticed one side-effect...his appetite is gone. He doesn't eat much at mealtimes.

I told mom that tomorrow, let him come to me without taking his Ritalin (just put the pill on the side)...and if there's any problem, I'll give him the pill.

The whole day went without any incident. I told the boy that as far as I see, there's nothing wrong with him. That he just have to pay more attention and do what the teacher says. He ate a big lunch that day!

He ate like a hungry lumberjack!

I don't know if they did manage to get the teacher to change her mind...or if he was "doped" for the rest of the schoolyear. The family had moved not long after and we've lost touch.

You have to question why suddenly there's this big plague called ADD hitting schoolchildren in epidemic-proportion.

The fact that a teacher can demand that a child be on medication....even when the doctor was not agreeable to it, doesn't sit well with me.

Is ADD and Ritalin a convenient tool to make an oversized classroom more manageable for teachers?

I know that there were research finidngs after that about the negative effects of Ritalin. I don't know if it's still being used....or if they've found a substitution for it.

[margrace]

About 4 years ago, a mother of a 8 year old boy (who came regularly as an after-school kid), asked me if he can come to my daycare tomorow (PD day) and stay the whole day. When I said it was okay, she then told me that she'll make sure he gets his medication so he'll behave well. This was news to me. I never saw him mis-behave unnaturally while at the daycare after school.

The mom explained that at school, he is very active and overly "sensitive" that he easily cries when upset....and the teacher said he seemed to be suffering from ADD (Attention-deficit-something)...and that he will have to be on Ritalin.

I told mom about my observation, that yes he is an active boy....but nothing unusual for a boy his age. That it's normal for children to get rambunctious sometimes, and so far, he listens when I tell him to settle down. Mom said his doctor did not agree that he should be on Ritalin...but the teacher wants him to be on it.

Mom noticed one side-effect...his appetite is gone. He doesn't eat much at mealtimes.

I told mom that tomorrow, let him come to me without taking his Ritalin (just put the pill on the side)...and if there's any problem, I'll give him the pill.

The whole day went without any incident. I told the boy that as far as I see, there's nothing wrong with him. That he just have to pay more attention and do what the teacher says. He ate a big lunch that day!

He ate like a hungry lumberjack!

I don't know if they did manage to get the teacher to change her mind...or if he was "doped" for the rest of the schoolyear. The family had moved not long after and we've lost touch.

You have to question why suddenly there's this big plague called ADD hitting schoolchildren in epidemic-proportion.

The fact that a teacher can demand that a child be on medication....even when the doctor was not agreeable to it, doesn't sit well with me.

Is ADD and Ritalin a convenient tool to make an oversized classroom more manageable for teachers?

I know that there were research finidngs after that about the negative effects of Ritalin. I don't know if it's still being used....or if they've found a substitution for it.

Hi Betseu good question.

I think Ritalin is the answer to big uncontrollable classes. The teachers who stuck it out over the last few years have been brain washed into thinking that this is the only way to control a class.

My grandson is Add and has a learning disability. He is a hard lad to control, but his mother is a mental health specialist. She never allowed anyone to medicate her son. Live is extremely interesting living with this boy who is now 18 but only time will tell how he survives. No drug would ever help him. He is on his own now and everyone in the family is waiting with baited breath to see how he does.

No regular school would ever take him on but the Seventh Day Adventists in BC have some excellent schools and they did a lot to help him.

[Drea]

oops! double post

[Drea]

Poor kid!

I don't believe in medicating children.

Each child is going to be different -- teachers need to know this and structure their curiculum appropriately. Perhaps this child would benefit from some physical activity and very strict structure. IE: Very clear time for rough and tumble, very clear time for quiet reading time. Make it the same every day so the child knows exacty what to expect each day. Hyperactive (I'd never call them ADD) children need to know what to expect. Surprises can really throw them off.

I'm not an expert, I had a roommate whose daughter was diagnosed with ADD. Mom was low income and couldn't afford the medication (didn't want her daughter on it anyway) so we used the techniques as above. Didn't always work -- there were some really bad days, but she's now 11 and doing very well (as long as she has her structure).

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Betsy,

You have to question why suddenly there's this big plague called ADD hitting schoolchildren in epidemic-proportion.

There were no such things as ADD, etc, wheen I was a kid. I was labeled 'hyperactive', and my mom tried to limit my sugar intake. There were some kids worse than me, but the 'old methods' were used. (I still remember a Nun wrestling another kid down to the floor in a headlock in about grade 2 or 3. Would have been in about 1974 or 75)

Unruly children got the strap, not excuses and drugs. If you ask me, ADD is a result of someone's thesis that was seized upon and perpetuated by the pharmaceutical industry. Get rid of ritalin, and bring back the strap. Teach kids 'consequences', not excuses and the notion that 'I'm not responsible for what I do'.

[betsy]

Dear Margrace, Drea and Theloniusfleabag,

It is true, there was no such thing as ADD for the last decade(?)...and now, all of a sudden it seems so common. I have some sort of a theory for it.....sure, it's hyperactivity. But hyperactivity can be triggered not only by sugar. Lack of sleep...or being tired can easily trigger that. You know how they start to bounce off walls, mix a couple of kids together and they start feeding off each other? And if the adult in charge do not know how to control or divert the situation, it is chaos.

Children lead a very hectic lifestyle now compared to ours when we were kids.

So it could also be that these kids supposedly afflicted with ADD, are just actually stressed out.

Some children do have a real ADD syndrome....but I don't believe they are this many.

I had one 5 year old who only come irregularly as a drop in. He has to be on medication. But mind you, his was not only ADD...but also Tourette's syndrome. One time, his parents were late in picking him up and his medication wore off. Boy, he just spouted the most colorful language. We were all speechless. You could hear a pin drop.

[margrace]

Dear Margrace, Drea and Theloniusfleabag,

It is true, there was no such thing as ADD for the last decade(?)...and now, all of a sudden it seems so common. I have some sort of a theory for it.....sure, it's hyperactivity. But hyperactivity can be triggered not only by sugar. Lack of sleep...or being tired can easily trigger that. You know how they start to bounce off walls, mix a couple of kids together and they start feeding off each other? And if the adult in charge do not know how to control or divert the situation, it is chaos.

Children lead a very hectic lifestyle now compared to ours when we were kids.

So it could also be that these kids supposedly afflicted with ADD, are just actually stressed out.

Some children do have a real ADD syndrome....but I don't believe they are this many.

I had one 5 year old who only come irregularly as a drop in. He has to be on medication. But mind you, his was not only ADD...but also Tourette's syndrome. One time, his parents were late in picking him up and his medication wore off. Boy, he just spouted the most colorful language. We were all speechless. You could hear a pin drop.

I truly believe that there really is little ADD out there. However, some, like my grandson who definitley has it, are unable to cope with the realities of life. He thinks therefore he does. You and I think and then evaluate, what will happen if I do that. He has no such inhibitions, he just does. Afterwards he appologizes profusly.

Every idea in the book was tried with him, he loves farming and he was good at it, he could have inherited a beautiful farm with a big business. He just could not control himself.

Sadly his father had to sell the farm, the reality, which my grandson admitted was that there was no way he could handle it.

But I still think that Ritalin is terrible for any child. Lets cut down the size of classes and put more help in there for the teachers. Then someone would be there for time out with a poblem child

[August1991]

In grammar school, four of every five children taking medications like Ritalin for behavioral disorders are boys.

Some US newspaper

This use of Ritalin by boys must be seen in the context of boys falling behind girls in academic success.

It seems to me that boys and girls don't learn the same way. One theory is our education system is regimented and lends itself to checking that students can complete minor, detailed tasks such as pasting pictures and writing straight titles. Girls may be better at this than boys. (IME, female check out clerks are faster and more accurate than male check out clerks.)

Unable to fit in to such regimentation, boys require Ritalin. (In the army, they'd be yelled at.)

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear August1991,

It seems to me that boys and girls don't learn the same way.

They are taught the same way, but see things differently. Part 'Nature', part 'Nurture', part regimentation, but they are not the same. Equal but different.

Unable to fit in to such regimentation, boys require Ritalin.

I vehemently disagree.

[Argus]

Dear Betsy,

You have to question why suddenly there's this big plague called ADD hitting schoolchildren in epidemic-proportion.

There were no such things as ADD, etc, wheen I was a kid. I was labeled 'hyperactive', and my mom tried to limit my sugar intake. There were some kids worse than me, but the 'old methods' were used. (I still remember a Nun wrestling another kid down to the floor in a headlock in about grade 2 or 3. Would have been in about 1974 or 75)

Unruly children got the strap, not excuses and drugs. If you ask me, ADD is a result of someone's thesis that was seized upon and perpetuated by the pharmaceutical industry. Get rid of ritalin, and bring back the strap. Teach kids 'consequences', not excuses and the notion that 'I'm not responsible for what I do'.

Gee, Flea. You're sounding like a conservative there.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Argus,

Gee, Flea. You're sounding like a conservative there.

On some issues, I am a 'conservative'. On some, I am a socialist, and on others I am a communist. On relatively few I am a 'libertarian', and on even fewer I am like Jesus.

[geoffrey]

ADD is a complete farce, its definitely a big money maker for the pharmacuticals.

Kids aren't challenged enough in school. I've gotten to where I'm at in my education without ever exerting any effort. I've skipped classes throughout highschool and in elementary school I was an ass to all my teachers (until the parents learnt of this and then it ended in a hurry!). Yet I came out near top of my class.

Until the education system gets less politically correct and starts putting kids into streamed courses from early on (based on IQ tests or whatever), your going to have kids that just absolutely don't care about what's being taught.

Less intelligent people will have no interest in theoretical stuff and more intelligent people will have little interest in woodworking or whatever else. When we understand these differences and lose our hesitation to tell the parents your kid just isn't going to be that doctor/lawyer/scientist, then ADD will become a non-issue. Kids will be interested in what they learn when it applies to their strengths and weaknesses.

We are needlessly keeping too many kids in school, taking courses that are completely outside their interests and future careers. Most should be put into trade pathways from early on, too many people graduate university now too. So much in wasted resources for our society.

[newbie]

ADHD and ADD are not farces. From http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/adhd.cfm

according to the most recent version of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders2 (DSM-IV-TR), there are three patterns of behavior that indicate ADHD. People with ADHD may show several signs of being consistently inattentive. They may have a pattern of being hyperactive and impulsive far more than others of their age. Or they may show all three types of behavior. This means that there are three subtypes of ADHD recognized by professionals. These are the predominantly hyperactive-impulsive type (that does not show significant inattention); the predominantly inattentive type (that does not show significant hyperactive-impulsive behavior) sometimes called ADD—an outdated term for this entire disorder; and the combined type (that displays both inattentive and hyperactive-impulsive symptoms).

I have first hand knowledge. One of our sons has had this since birth. He was medicated once in school on ritalin and he has made a very significant improvement. He still takes this medication as an adult and functions fine in society. I don't believe this drug is for everyone. There are other non-addictive stimulants that are available. But to say this disorder does not exist is to deny the medical science.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear newbie,

But to say this disorder does not exist is to deny the medical science.

Perhaps I am a bit harsh with my statements, but I will readily say that if ADD does exist (and if it did then it probably always did, but didn't have a name until recently), it has been used more often as an excuse or a profitable cash cow, than it has spawned solutions.

We are needlessly keeping too many kids in school, taking courses that are completely outside their interests and future careers. Most should be put into trade pathways from early on, too many people graduate university now too. So much in wasted resources for our society.

I disagree with geoffrey here, this is the stuff communist Russia tried, and if capitalism has a free hand, the way our society will go..toward 'A Brave New World'.

[geoffrey]

We are needlessly keeping too many kids in school, taking courses that are completely outside their interests and future careers. Most should be put into trade pathways from early on, too many people graduate university now too. So much in wasted resources for our society.

I disagree with geoffrey here, this is the stuff communist Russia tried, and if capitalism has a free hand, the way our society will go..toward 'A Brave New World'.

Well why should we waste so much educating people that will never use it. Focus our limited resources on the bright kids and challenge them, the other we put into trade specialisation.

I see your Brave New World analogy, and how this could occur from this. However, don't you also see the waste in resources by giving these people that will never use their schooling all this attention.

Remember, its the challenged kids that gets all the attention. This is counter-productive to having an intelligent and advanced society.

[newbie]

Dear newbie,

But to say this disorder does not exist is to deny the medical science.

Perhaps I am a bit harsh with my statements, but I will readily say that if ADD does exist (and if it did then it probably always did, but didn't have a name until recently), it has been used more often as an excuse or a profitable cash cow, than it has spawned solutions.

I definitely agree with that. It was getting to the point where Ritalin was over prescribed, and ADD was used as an excuse for "bad" behaviour in large classrooms. However, in our case, the medication was a Godsend and we are very grateful for the diagnosis and the drug.

[margrace]

ADD is a complete farce, its definitely a big money maker for the pharmacuticals.

Kids aren't challenged enough in school. I've gotten to where I'm at in my education without ever exerting any effort. I've skipped classes throughout highschool and in elementary school I was an ass to all my teachers (until the parents learnt of this and then it ended in a hurry!). Yet I came out near top of my class.

Until the education system gets less politically correct and starts putting kids into streamed courses from early on (based on IQ tests or whatever), your going to have kids that just absolutely don't care about what's being taught.

Less intelligent people will have no interest in theoretical stuff and more intelligent people will have little interest in woodworking or whatever else. When we understand these differences and lose our hesitation to tell the parents your kid just isn't going to be that doctor/lawyer/scientist, then ADD will become a non-issue. Kids will be interested in what they learn when it applies to their strengths and weaknesses.

We are needlessly keeping too many kids in school, taking courses that are completely outside their interests and future careers. Most should be put into trade pathways from early on, too many people graduate university now too. So much in wasted resources for our society.

I agree with you on this geoffrey, the problem is you cannot box people. There are always a significent number who stoy outside the box.

The biggest difficuly with education is the my kid is better than your kid syndrome. I observed this back in the late 60's when my kids hit high school. There was an excellent school in our area for trades but it was considered only for what the general public regarded then as politically incorrect retards.

By sending a child to that school one officially labelled them. I fought it then and still think that it was a pretty stupid way of looking at things.

However when streaming was promoted in our area for my much younger son in the 80' a boy who went through school with him scored in the middle 90's in everything. All he wanted to do was to be a carpenter and he did albeit he owns his own business now.

My son chose to take a semester off school and learn about the Produce world, buying and selling fruit and vegetables, when he went back to his high school one semester later he was not longer recognized by the teachers who had taught him before, rather hurtful. However once again he tried something different and took a semester with the OPP. Although all the tests he took showed he would do well in that type of environment he graduated and went into a factory. He hated it but again was encouraged to take more responsiblities in that environment. The problem was he did not have the faith in himself to be in upper management.

Another boy, the same age as my son was a whiz with computers, once again it was the same as my son. He drifted, the frustrating thing about this boy was that he skipped school, he found it boring, but his average at exam time was 95%. He now works in a small factory looking after their computer systems and as far as I know is quite happy.

This is the problem with our school systems, we try to box kids and as one cannot box adults you certainly cannot box kids. What is the solution, you tell me.

There are some kids who, to me, appear to be complete duds. Not a nice thing to say but it was my observation.

[Melanie_]

I agree that ADD is often "diagnosed" more for the sake of the teacher maintaining order than for any real disorder in the child. Also, other disorders, particularly food allergies, often have the same symptoms as ADD - but it is much easier to give a kid Ritalin than to cut dairy products out of their diet.

For those interested in a good book, very readable and written by a Canadian doctor with ADD, read Scattered Minds by Gabor Mate. I don't buy into his theories 100%, but they give some good food for thought.

[fryingpan]

ADD is a complete farce, its definitely a big money maker for the pharmacuticals.

Kids aren't challenged enough in school. I've gotten to where I'm at in my education without ever exerting any effort. I've skipped classes throughout highschool and in elementary school I was an ass to all my teachers (until the parents learnt of this and then it ended in a hurry!). Yet I came out near top of my class.

Until the education system gets less politically correct and starts putting kids into streamed courses from early on (based on IQ tests or whatever), your going to have kids that just absolutely don't care about what's being taught.

Less intelligent people will have no interest in theoretical stuff and more intelligent people will have little interest in woodworking or whatever else. When we understand these differences and lose our hesitation to tell the parents your kid just isn't going to be that doctor/lawyer/scientist, then ADD will become a non-issue. Kids will be interested in what they learn when it applies to their strengths and weaknesses.

We are needlessly keeping too many kids in school, taking courses that are completely outside their interests and future careers. Most should be put into trade pathways from early on, too many people graduate university now too. So much in wasted resources for our society.

I agree. Someone has to do these types of jobs, so why not the kids who don't seem to care very much for studying and academics? I've seen people in the academic/university strands in high school who don't seem to care about school at all. I've also seen people in these streams who will never find a career in these fields due to lack of ability, yet they still keep taking the course over and over when they fail.

Instead of wasting these kids' and the teachers' time, why not enroll these kids in trade schools? They can do something they like, and get paid quite well (since trades are in high demand right now).

[betsy]

We have done so much for these kids so they can have a future. However, let's face it. Some of these kids will never go anywhere for they've been raised seeing their parents lived off the "pogie system"...so a lot of them will end up doing the same, or they have chosen the path to self-destruction.

What about those kids who are doing well? The achievers? They don't have to be specially gifted....but you know, the ones with the positive attitudes and go-getters?

I think they are getting lost in the shuffle...in our concentration towards the "lemons"....we are losing sight of these gems. We must show these gems that we take notice of their positive efforts and enthusiasm...offer an incentive of some sort...something that will keep them motivated and going.

[fryingpan]

We have done so much for these kids so they can have a future. However, let's face it. Some of these kids will never go anywhere for they've been raised seeing their parents lived off the "pogie system"...so a lot of them will end up doing the same, or they have chosen the path to self-destruction.

What about those kids who are doing well? The achievers? They don't have to be specially gifted....but you know, the ones with the positive attitudes and go-getters?

I think they are getting lost in the shuffle...in our concentration towards the "lemons"....we are losing sight of these gems. We must show these gems that we take notice of their positive efforts and enthusiasm...offer an incentive of some sort...something that will keep them motivated and going.

Yup, I agree 100%. There is no point in trying to help someone who doesn't want your help and doesn't seem to care. But the ones who do work and have the right attitude deserve recognition and motivation. They are the ones who will be the successful doctors, lawyers, and engineers, which this country is going to need when the baby boomers retire.

[Black Dog]

Well why should we waste so much educating people that will never use it. Focus our limited resources on the bright kids and challenge them, the other we put into trade specialisation.

And how do you seperate the Alphas from the Epsilons?

[geoffrey]

Well why should we waste so much educating people that will never use it. Focus our limited resources on the bright kids and challenge them, the other we put into trade specialisation.

And how do you seperate the Alphas from the Epsilons?

I knew that was coming from you.

By the time they hit high school, most of the gifted kids are known and most of the 'developmentally challenged' are known. It's easy to draw the line there. Maybe even draw it at the university line?

I'm just not convinced on the ideas of wasting so much energy and resources on someone that will never be at par with the rest. Instead, teach them a trade and make them useful in that regard. I see too many not-so-bright people at the university level. It's kind of a waste don't you think?

Our academic and intellectual resources are very limited, but applied to the more gifted population, the Alpha's in our little example here, would see way more results than applying them to those destined to never succeed in a job that requires intelligence.

You must agree this was an incrediably efficient aspect of the Brave New World. I don't advocate a society like that, but a system based on education to people's strengths makes sense to me.

[Black Dog]

By the time they hit high school, most of the gifted kids are known and most of the 'developmentally challenged' are known. It's easy to draw the line there. Maybe even draw it at the university line?

Given there's no really reliable guage of intelligence and given the degree to which external factors (household income, family structure etc.) play on educational success, I think your model is flawed. An individual is not their test scores; I find the notion of setting down a path for kids based on arbitrary measures to be vaguely totalitarian and antithetical to the principles of a free and democratic society.

I balk at any model that sees education as nothing more than a path to productivity.

I'm just not convinced on the ideas of wasting so much energy and resources on someone that will never be at par with the rest. Instead, teach them a trade and make them useful in that regard. I see too many not-so-bright people at the university level. It's kind of a waste don't you think?

Nope. They are there because they want to be there and, if they are at university, they are paying their way. I think the system already shortchanges people; I'd hate to see that become the focus of the system.

Our academic and intellectual resources are very limited, but applied to the more gifted population, the Alpha's in our little example here, would see way more results than applying them to those destined to never succeed in a job that requires intelligence.

But if one assumes such a Randian/Social Darwinist model, then the bright kids will succeed regardless and the dummies will fall behind. This whole notion makes me queasy. It's a short trip (intellectually speaking) from deciding what kids get attention in class to deciding what people should be allowed to breed.

You must agree this was an incrediably efficient aspect of the Brave New World. I don't advocate a society like that, but a system based on education to people's strengths makes sense to me.

Hell, if you want efficiency, why not make Ritalin use mandatory? Row upon row of doped up kids waiting for their next lesson (divided, of course, into seperate streams for social optimization).