Muslim Rage Over Cartoon

[jbg]

Don't we have the same responsibility to speak out that you say Muslims do? Shouldn't they be able to expect the same from us that you expect from them? Is it right for us to expect them to 'accept' collateral damage?

I think Jews and Christians have been very vocal in decrying the violence of their fringe elements.

Otherwise, as usual, you make good points even if we don't always agree.

[Argus]

Seems the crazed turban set still can't get over those cartoons, and are still trying to punish the Danish newspaper which originally published them.

So-called Canadian Arrested in Bomb Plot

Despite all the denials of the useful-idiot set to try and suggest that Muslims are no more violent than anyone else, every day sees more evidence to the contrary.

That a so-called Canadian is involved in the bomb-plot should surprise no one. A poll taken last year showed that almost 80% of Canadian Muslims feel that anyone who insults or disparages Islam ought to be punished. There just isn't any belief in freedom of speech when it comes to their religion - whether you're a so-called moderate or not.

[Black Dog]

That a so-called Canadian is involved in the bomb-plot should surprise no one. A poll taken last year showed that almost 80% of Canadian Muslims feel that anyone who insults or disparages Islam ought to be punished.There just isn't any belief in freedom of speech when it comes to their religion - whether you're a so-called moderate or not.

That's not the first time you mentioned this poll, nor is it the first time you mentioned it without bothering to provide a cite.

[Guest American Woman]

A poll taken last year showed that almost 80% of Canadian Muslims feel that anyone who insults or disparages Islam ought to be punished.

That's not the first time you mentioned this poll, nor is it the first time you mentioned it without bothering to provide a cite.

I'd appreciate a link to that poll, Argus.

Edited October 27, 2009 by American Woman

[Argus]

That's not the first time you mentioned this poll, nor is it the first time you mentioned it without bothering to provide a cite.

I'd appreciate a link to that poll, Argus.

It seems to be a lot harder to find than it was when I first heard about it. Possibly this is because it was funded by the CBC, and the CBC doesn't seem to have much interest in putting out the actual poll so much as the rosier spin they put on the figures. For example, the following:

Asked about the arrests last summer of the 18 Muslim men and boys who were allegedly plotting terrorist attacks in southern Ontario, 73 per cent of the Muslim respondents said these attacks were not at all justified and 82 per cent said they had no sympathy for those who wanted to carry them out.

It's made to sound great but wait... if 73% said the attacks were not at all justifed... doesn't that infer that 27% felt they WERE? And if 82% had no sympathy for the would-be terrorists, then that would seem to suggest 18% DID have sympathy.

CBC - Environics

I went to the Environics site. They list the prospectus for the survey but don't have the survey results, just a link back to CBC, which also doesn't have them. I'll look around again when I have more time because I know I saw the actual numbers pro and con for this and other questions.

[Michael Hardner]

It's made to sound great but wait... if 73% said the attacks were not at all justifed... doesn't that infer that 27% felt they WERE? And if 82% had no sympathy for the would-be terrorists, then that would seem to suggest 18% DID have sympathy.

It doesn't seem to say what the general population response was to those questions. I doubt that 100% said that they had 'no sympathy' for example.

[Guest American Woman]

It seems to be a lot harder to find than it was when I first heard about it. Possibly this is because it was funded by the CBC, and the CBC doesn't seem to have much interest in putting out the actual poll so much as the rosier spin they put on the figures.

[...]

I went to the Environics site. They list the prospectus for the survey but don't have the survey results, just a link back to CBC, which also doesn't have them. I'll look around again when I have more time because I know I saw the actual numbers pro and con for this and other questions.

I appreciate your efforts to find the link. I just have a hard time, in light of the percentages you did reference, believing that 80% of Canadian Muslims think people who insult or disparage Islam should be punished; especially in light of the fact that your cite says that 80% of Canadian Muslims are broadly satisfied with their lives in Canada and only 17 per cent feel that many or most Canadians are hostile toward their religion.

Edited October 28, 2009 by American Woman

[PocketRocket]

It's made to sound great but wait... if 73% said the attacks were not at all justifed... doesn't that infer that 27% felt they WERE? And if 82% had no sympathy for the would-be terrorists, then that would seem to suggest 18% DID have sympathy.

Well, it also occurs to me that if someone, when asked, were to say "I don't know the circumstances so cannot speak to that", or some such, that would go into the 27% (or 18%) category.

It's also possible that many of those polled were simply shy, or did not want to give an answer of any kind.

Then again, it's also possible that some of them were plotting an attack of their own.

It's a strange and wonderful world. Anything is possible.

Sometimes that is not a good thing.

[Argus]

I appreciate your efforts to find the link. I just have a hard time, in light of the percentages you did reference, believing that 80% of Canadian Muslims think people who insult or disparage Islam should be punished; especially in light of the fact that your cite says that 80% of Canadian Muslims are broadly satisfied with their lives in Canada and only 17 per cent feel that many or most Canadians are hostile toward their religion.

Broadly satisfied yes, but that doesn't mean they aren't angered by what they see as insults to Islam. A lot of Muslims see themselves as Muslims first, and Canadians second.

When asked whether they identify first as Muslim or first as Canadian, 56 percent of Canadian Muslims chose Muslim first, while 23 percent chose Canadian first... There is a notable generational difference on this question, with Muslims aged 18 to 29 markedly more likely than average (77%) to describe themselves as Muslim first.

I did find this somewhat more complete listing of the poll's results on a government web site.

Three quarters (75%) of Canadian Muslims were aware of the arrests of 18 men and boys in the Greater Toronto Area on terrorism charges in 2006. Of those Muslims who reported an awareness of these arrests, three quarters (73%) said the attacks, if carried out, would have been not at all justified. Thirteen percent (of the 75 percent subsample who had heard of the arrests) said the attacks would have been either completely (5%) or somewhat (8%) justified. The combined total of those in the subsample saying the attacks would have been at least somewhat justified (13%) amounted to a little under 10 percent of the overall sample.

Policy Research Institute

[Guest American Woman]

Broadly satisfied yes, but that doesn't mean they aren't angered by what they see as insults to Islam. A lot of Muslims see themselves as Muslims first, and Canadians second.

When asked whether they identify first as Muslim or first as Canadian, 56 percent of Canadian Muslims chose Muslim first, while 23 percent chose Canadian first... There is a notable generational difference on this question, with Muslims aged 18 to 29 markedly more likely than average (77%) to describe themselves as Muslim first.

I wonder if there's ever been a poll asking people if they consider themselves Christians first or [fill in the nationality of whatever country]?

I'm not sure what people mean when they say they consider themselves a "Muslim first" and Canadian second, but I can see why that would be perceived as a problem.

I did find this somewhat more complete listing of the poll's results on a government web site.

Three quarters (75%) of Canadian Muslims were aware of the arrests of 18 men and boys in the Greater Toronto Area on terrorism charges in 2006. Of those Muslims who reported an awareness of these arrests, three quarters (73%) said the attacks, if carried out, would have been not at all justified. Thirteen percent (of the 75 percent subsample who had heard of the arrests) said the attacks would have been either completely (5%) or somewhat (8%) justified.

The combined total of those in the subsample saying the attacks would have been at least somewhat justified (13%) amounted to a little under 10 percent of the overall sample.

Policy Research Institute

I honestly think that 5% is within what would be pretty normal of the extremist end of any group regarding any race, religion, what-have-you. There were even conservative Christians in the U.S. who more or less said the 9-11 attacks were our fault. Furthermore, I'm sure there are Blacks who think white cops deserve to be shot, KKK members who think Blacks should be shot, Conservative Christians who think abortion doctors deserve to be killed, Conservative Christians who think women who get pregnant deserve to die in a back alley if they attempt to abort.

Edited October 28, 2009 by American Woman

[Guest American Woman]

Evidently some still haven't let go of their rage over the cartoon:

Police shoot man attacking Muhammad cartoonist

Police shot a Somali man wielding an ax and a knife after he broke into the home of an artist whose cartoon of the Prophet Muhammad with a bomb-shaped turban outraged the Muslim world, the head of Denmark's intelligence agency said Saturday.

[Argus]

Evidently some still haven't let go of their rage over the cartoon:

Police shoot man attacking Muhammad cartoonist

Police shot a Somali man wielding an ax and a knife after he broke into the home of an artist whose cartoon of the Prophet Muhammad with a bomb-shaped turban outraged the Muslim world, the head of Denmark's intelligence agency said Saturday.

The Muslim world isn't capable of very much, but long, simmering hatred is definitely their specialty. No, they haven't forgotten. It was only last month two men were arrested by the FBI for helping to plan a terrorist attack on the Danish newspaper which publi9shed the cartoons.

Of course, the irony is almost laughable, and completely escapes almost all of them - that their violent outrage was sparked over a cartoon which basically depicted them as violent.

So is calling someone an illiterate cretin really an insult when they ARE an illiterate cretin?

[JB Globe]

The Muslim world isn't capable of very much, but long, simmering hatred is definitely their specialty.

I am not a bigot.

I am not a bigot.

I am not a bigot.

I am not a bigot.

I am not a bigot.

I am not a bigot.

I am not a bigot.

I am not a bigot.

I am not a bigot.

I am not a bigot.

I am not a bigot.

I am not a bigot.

[Argus]

I am not a bigot.

I am not a bigot.

I am not a bigot.

I am not a bigot.

I am not a bigot.

I am not a bigot.

I am not a bigot.

I am not a bigot.

I am not a bigot.

I am not a bigot.

I am not a bigot.

I am not a bigot.

Not sure about that, but your posts are definitely the work of a wack job.

[JB Globe]

Not sure about that, but your posts are definitely the work of a wack job.

I don't hate Islam, I just think it's evil.

[Michael Hardner]

I don't hate Islam, I just think it's evil.

[edited|I have changed my post based on Kimmy's assertion that this is sarcasm.

Edited January 5, 2010 by Michael Hardner

[Michael Hardner]

I don't hate Islam, I just think it's evil.

Also - here's a quote from you that's hard to reconcile with your statement:

I don't know what benefit there is in the vilify-Islam-movement, other than a fleeting sense of superiority among certain bigoted individuals.

[kimmy]

Ok, so you LIKE evil things ? Gotcha.

Also - here's a quote from you that's hard to reconcile with your statement:

I think the reason you're having a hard time reconciling those two posts with Globe's earlier messages is that your sarcasm detector is broken.

The "I am not a bigot" and "I don't hate Islam, I just think it's evil" posts are his characterization of other posts being made.

-k

[Oleg Bach]

Only idiot insult Muslims and only idiots piss on icons of Christ..only idiots put their hand in the mouth of a barking dog. What was the uncontrolable need that this cartoonist had to insult Islam..what was the purpose? Much like our western renegade artists that depict Jesus taking it up the ass or a cruxifix submerged in urine..what drives these idiot artist on? It must be a lack of talent - and taking the easy way out in the realm of creation. It was utterly stupid to publish offensive material...BUT what do we expect from a western mentality where we have a judge that deems kiddy porn as art?

[Oleg Bach]

Once again Muslims show us just how peaceful Islam really is. How soon before a fatwa, and how soon before the author of the cartoon goes into hiding for a decade? Or, worst of all, how soon before they kill him, like so many others? Oh well, I can't say that I'm suprised.

Where is the sense in your approach. Spit in a man's face and you are not surprised that he is enraged? This whole handling of sensitive and stupid Jews - Muslims and Christians has gotten out of hand..we all know that all these groups have very emotional and reactionary members that are not to smart and do not see the big picture..who react without thinking because of limited thinking ability - pissing off a stupid person and having him react violently is simply stupid in itself.

[Wilber]

Unfortunately it is next to impossible not to piss off a stupid person.

[Argus]

I don't hate Islam, I just think it's evil.

I don't "hate" Islam. I think the Islamic world is backwards and violent. I have made that judgement on them, as a group, based upon many years of accumulated behaviour and without regards to any presumed race, creed or colour.

Your defense of them, however, is entirely based on their presumed race and colour. Your bigotry, in other words, is patently obvious.

[Michael Hardner]

I think the reason you're having a hard time reconciling those two posts with Globe's earlier messages is that your sarcasm detector is broken.

The "I am not a bigot" and "I don't hate Islam, I just think it's evil" posts are his characterization of other posts being made.

-k

I encourage folks to use the <sarcasm></sarcasm> tags in such a case, as it's sometimes hard to recall who stands for what around here.

[naomiglover]

So is calling someone an illiterate cretin really an insult when they ARE an illiterate cretin?

Your problem is that you're unable to distinguish between Muslims.

Just because my uncle is a rabid Zionist Jew who advocates killing all Muslims and pissing on the Christian pigs, I don't think it's okay to label all Jews as having his view.

[Michael Hardner]

Your problem is that you're unable to distinguish between Muslims.

Just because my uncle is a rabid Zionist Jew who advocates killing all Muslims and pissing on the Christian pigs, I don't think it's okay to label all Jews as having his view.

At least you and your uncle live in the same culture. A better analogy might be to talk about Robert Mugabe and George W Bush in the same sentence as part of the 'Christian world', as if there's nothing else that matters in the world than one's religion.