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U.S. Support for Israel’s War Has Become Indefensible


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15 minutes ago, ironstone said:

I'm certain that the IDF does not use the same tactics as Hamas in that they don't rape the women and girls, they don't behead children or deliberately target civilians. It is Hamas that causes the casualties when they use their own as human shields. It is Hamas that hides in Shifa hospital with civilians.

War isn't a game of exact reciprocity either. They kill 1300 so we can't kill more than 1300? Doesn't work like that. The IDF has the right to go in and flush out Hamas whether they are in their hundreds of miles of tunnels or on the ground behind women and children as they are apt to do.

Sorry, not buying your "devil made me do it" defense of EVIL.

Killing innocent bystanders enmasse is much WORSE than "rape women and girls," even though BOTH have long historical precedent in warfare.

And IDF ARE deliberately targeting civilians using ASYMMETRICAL warfare supplied largely by the US.

I want NO PART of that. We should supply ONLY defensive weapons to Israel.

 

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14 hours ago, robosmith said:

Isolated mistakes is not the same as carpet bombing an urban environment pulverizing ALL the buildings.

They're not carpet bombing. As for pulverizing buildings, the issue is you need to get at the enemy, who is often in tunnels that need to be got at. That means large bombs. 

1 hour ago, robosmith said:

Gaza is much smaller than that. Doesn't take hundreds of bombers to level the place.

And yet Israel has been fighting Hamas for six months and still haven't taken all the territory. To what do you attribute this? 

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55 minutes ago, robosmith said:

Killing innocent bystanders enmasse is much WORSE than "rape women and girls," even though BOTH have long historical precedent in warfare.

No, it is NOT. 

What we saw on October 7th was the kind of barbarism and savagery the West has outgrown. Even the Germans didn't act like that in WW2. The glee that Hamas fighters took in murdering elderly people in their gardens, children in their rooms, women they could rape and torture before murdering, is just horrifying. 

All Israel is doing is standard urban warfare but taking much more care than other countries. Russia lined its artillery pieces up wheel to wheel to bombard Chechen cities without a care in the world about how many civilians they killed. Syria did the same in their own country. The Saudis have done the same in Yemen. The death tolls in these other wars are orders of magnitude larger than in Gaza. 

And those are just some of the more recent ones. 

 

 

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50 minutes ago, robosmith said:

Killing innocent bystanders enmasse is much WORSE than "rape women and girls," even though BOTH have long historical precedent in warfare.

That's according to Hamas, so I wouldn't put much trust in what they say.

Hamas members typically do not wear military uniforms either by the way, so perhaps that's why they are counted as civilians?

 

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2 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

No, it is NOT. 

What we saw on October 7th was the kind of barbarism and savagery the West has outgrown. Even the Germans didn't act like that in WW2. The glee that Hamas fighters took in murdering elderly people in their gardens, children in their rooms, women they could rape and torture before murdering, is just horrifying. 

All Israel is doing is standard urban warfare but taking much more care than other countries. Russia lined its artillery pieces up wheel to wheel to bombard Chechen cities without a care in the world about how many civilians they killed. Syria did the same in their own country. The Saudis have done the same in Yemen. The death tolls in these other wars are orders of magnitude larger than in Gaza. 

And those are just some of the more recent ones. 

You got your OPINION and I got EXPERTS.

Israel’s military campaign in Gaza seen as among the most destructive in recent history, experts say

Quote

The Israeli military campaign in Gaza, experts say, now sits among the deadliest and most destructive in recent history.

In just over two months, researchers say the offensive has wreaked more destruction than the razing of Syria’s Aleppo between 2012 and 2016, Ukraine’s Mariupol or, proportionally, the Allied bombing of Germany in World War II. It has killed more civilians than the U.S.-led coalition did in its three-year campaign against the Islamic State group.

The Israeli military has said little about what kinds of bombs and artillery it is using in Gaza. But from blast fragments found on-site and analyses of strike footage, experts are confident that the vast majority of bombs dropped on the besieged enclave are U.S.-made. They say the weapons include 2,000-pound (900-kilogram) “bunker-busters” that have killed hundreds in densely populated areas.

 

6 minutes ago, ironstone said:

That's according to Hamas, so I wouldn't put much trust in what they say.

Hamas members typically do not wear military uniforms either by the way, so perhaps that's why they are counted as civilians?

The Gaza Ministry of Health estimates have been corroborated by others.

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2 hours ago, robosmith said:

Experts? A couple of college professors at a university in Oregon using low-resolution, publicly available satellite pictures and feeding them into a computer using an experimental algorithm whose accuracy they never bothered to evaluate? And whose numbers have been contradicted by the UN more than once. The UN's numbers, using high-resolution satellite imagery is less than half that produced by these two clowns.

My initial doubts about those estimates arose back in December, when I found out that the United Nations Satellite Centre (UNOSAT) had published their own damage estimate that was about half of the one produced by our “experts”. UNOSAT’s estimate, based on satellite imagery from Nov 26, was about 37k, while Van Den Hoek&Scher estimated it to be in the 67.7k-88.1k range. https://unosat.org/products/3769 https://twitter.com/JamonVDH/status/1729295868711649319
 
When I asked them about the reason for such a huge difference between their estimates and the official UN agency numbers, none of them responded to my question. Few days ago I tried to reach them once again and asked the same question about the last UNOSAT estimate - 69k damaged buildings - which, once again, was half of what the “experts” claimed (138k-172k range) around the same time when UNOSAT images were taken. https://unosat.org/products/3793 https://twitter.com/JamonVDH/status/1746291096387539427
 
This time I did receive a response and the picture began to clarify. It turned out that unlike UNOSAT who base their counts on high-resolution satellite optic imagery, Van Den Hoek & Scher rely on publicly available satellite radar data based on inSAR technology. And this brings us to a first major limitation of their method - the “images” their analysis is based on have a much lower resolution - 40m - unlike the 0.3m resolution of the optical images used by UNOSAT.
 
This means that if their algorithm detects some damage within a 40x40m “pixel”, all the buildings within the same “pixel” are labeled as “likely damaged”. Moreover, because the calculations employed in inSAR typically use a 5x5 window, this means that the “color” of a pixel is affected by the changes in the 200x200m windows around it. In other words, any building within a 100m radius around actual damage can be potentially also labeled as “likely damaged”.
 
I have contacted them once again to make sure that my understanding of their method is correct, and asked them whether they found a way to circumvent these limitations and to make sure that the algorithm doesn’t generate a massive quantity of “false positives” (i.e., intact buildings that are mistakenly tagged as “damaged”). https://x.com/MarkZlochin/status/1764746557872545895?s=20 https://x.com/MarkZlochin/status/1764771718445314305?s=20
 
The response I got from Van Den Hoek was nothing short of amazing. It turned out that they never bothered to evaluate the accuracy of the algorithm. The only verification they did was to check that it doesn’t generate any spurious signals in a completely “clean” environment, with zero damage. That’s all. This is the basis on which the dramatic comparisons to carpet bombings in WWII Germany were based on - an experimental algorithm whose accuracy has never been tested, consistently giving damage estimates that were at least twice as large as the official UN Satelite Center numbers. Official numbers that Van Den Hoek & Scher, as well as some of the “journalists” who used their estimates, were aware of, but still continued as if it’s nothing. Bad science meeting poor journalism. A deadly combination.
 
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2 hours ago, robosmith said:

The Gaza Ministry of Health estimates have been corroborated by others.

No, they've just been largely accepted and regurgitated by others. 

According to these statistics, hospital-registered deaths contain substantially fewer women and children than implied by the 70 per cent figure. For instance, an MoH report released on the 3 March showed that since the start of the war only 58 per cent of the hospital-registered deaths are women and children (see bar-chart reproduced in Appendix 3 of this article). If we restrict analysis to 2024 deaths alone, this figure drops all the way down to 42 per cent. This is still a large proportion, but it should be remembered that women and children (the latter defined as persons under 18 years of age) make up of 75 per cent of Gaza’s population. As such, this 42 per cent figure actually reflects a significant avoidance of civilian casualties on the part of the IDF.

 

https://fathomjournal.org/statistically-impossible-a-critical-analysis-of-hamass-women-and-children-casualty-figures/

Edited by I am Groot
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Israeli ‘AI Targeting System’ Has Caused Huge Civilian Casualty Count In Gaza: Report

The targeting program has reportedly been used in conjunction with another called “Where’s Daddy,” which tracked bombing targets to their family homes.
Apr 5, 2024, 02:52 PM EDT
 
 
 

An artificial-intelligence-fueled targeting system known as “Lavender” has been used for months by the Israeli military in Gaza to select bombing targets with minimal human oversight, according to a new report published Wednesday. 

According to the report, which was published by the Israeli-Palestinian outlet +972 along with the website Local Call, military personnel approved the AI-selected targets with what one source said was often just a “rubber stamp,” taking only around “20 seconds” to review each target before approving a bombing. 

The report, which was based on unnamed sources and documents, said such review was done simply to confirm a target was male — despite a study of a random sample identifying a 10% error rate in the program’s designations when it targeted people who were not militants. Despite that error rate, according to the report, sources said they received approval around two weeks into the current war to automatically adopt Lavender’s kill lists. What’s more, the military reportedly pursued targeted individuals at home, often with family present — the work of another program ominously called “Where’s Daddy?” 

Sometimes, because of a lag in the “Where’s Daddy?” program, families were reportedly killed at home even when the main target was not present, the report said. It wasn’t clear from the report the extent to which the programs are still in use, though it said they were especially active in the early weeks of the war. 

“At 5 a.m., [the air force] would come and bomb all the houses that we had marked,” one unnamed senior officer, referred to in the story as “B,” said. “We took out thousands of people. We didn’t go through them one by one — we put everything into automated systems, and as soon as one of [the marked individuals] was at home, he immediately became a target. We bombed him and his house.”

The outcome of the program, according to the story’s sources, was tens of thousands of targets, and thousands of Palestinian civilians killed in strikes, including women, children and men not involved in combat.

The report underscored global concerns at the rate of civilian casualties in Gaza, where some 33,000 people have died in Israel’s military campaign.…

 

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israel-lavender-wheres-daddy-artificial-intelligence-targeting-bombings_n_66103150e4b04fa396148ee6

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3 hours ago, I am Groot said:

All Israel is doing is standard urban warfare but taking much more care than other countries.

Not by western standards. Remember Israel claims to be an enlightened western-style rights-based democracy not a brutal dictatorship like Russia or Syria or Saudi. So saying they’re somewhat better than those countries isn’t saying much. Certainly western nations don’t bring about the massive death tolls that Israel is racking ip. 
 

3 hours ago, I am Groot said:

The death tolls in these other wars are orders of magnitude larger than in Gaza. 

Proportionately that might not be true. Gaza is only 2.5m ppl compressed into a tiny area. 

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34 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Experts? A couple of college professors at a university in Oregon using low-resolution, publicly available satellite pictures and feeding them into a computer using an experimental algorithm whose accuracy they never bothered to evaluate? And whose numbers have been contradicted by the UN more than once. The UN's numbers, using high-resolution satellite imagery is less than half that produced by these two clowns.

My initial doubts about those estimates arose back in December, when I found out that the United Nations Satellite Centre (UNOSAT) had published their own damage estimate that was about half of the one produced by our “experts”. UNOSAT’s estimate, based on satellite imagery from Nov 26, was about 37k, while Van Den Hoek&Scher estimated it to be in the 67.7k-88.1k range. https://unosat.org/products/3769 https://twitter.com/JamonVDH/status/1729295868711649319
 
When I asked them about the reason for such a huge difference between their estimates and the official UN agency numbers, none of them responded to my question. Few days ago I tried to reach them once again and asked the same question about the last UNOSAT estimate - 69k damaged buildings - which, once again, was half of what the “experts” claimed (138k-172k range) around the same time when UNOSAT images were taken. https://unosat.org/products/3793 https://twitter.com/JamonVDH/status/1746291096387539427
 
This time I did receive a response and the picture began to clarify. It turned out that unlike UNOSAT who base their counts on high-resolution satellite optic imagery, Van Den Hoek & Scher rely on publicly available satellite radar data based on inSAR technology. And this brings us to a first major limitation of their method - the “images” their analysis is based on have a much lower resolution - 40m - unlike the 0.3m resolution of the optical images used by UNOSAT.
 
This means that if their algorithm detects some damage within a 40x40m “pixel”, all the buildings within the same “pixel” are labeled as “likely damaged”. Moreover, because the calculations employed in inSAR typically use a 5x5 window, this means that the “color” of a pixel is affected by the changes in the 200x200m windows around it. In other words, any building within a 100m radius around actual damage can be potentially also labeled as “likely damaged”.
 
I have contacted them once again to make sure that my understanding of their method is correct, and asked them whether they found a way to circumvent these limitations and to make sure that the algorithm doesn’t generate a massive quantity of “false positives” (i.e., intact buildings that are mistakenly tagged as “damaged”). https://x.com/MarkZlochin/status/1764746557872545895?s=20 https://x.com/MarkZlochin/status/1764771718445314305?s=20
 
The response I got from Van Den Hoek was nothing short of amazing. It turned out that they never bothered to evaluate the accuracy of the algorithm. The only verification they did was to check that it doesn’t generate any spurious signals in a completely “clean” environment, with zero damage. That’s all. This is the basis on which the dramatic comparisons to carpet bombings in WWII Germany were based on - an experimental algorithm whose accuracy has never been tested, consistently giving damage estimates that were at least twice as large as the official UN Satelite Center numbers. Official numbers that Van Den Hoek & Scher, as well as some of the “journalists” who used their estimates, were aware of, but still continued as if it’s nothing. Bad science meeting poor journalism. A deadly combination.
 

I have seen videos of the destruction on news feeds, and it is extensive with blocks and blocks of crumbled or bombed out buildings. AKA unliveable.

Don't really care how it compares to Dresden, cause Palestinian residents of Gaza are NOT NAZIS.

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36 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

No, they've just been largely accepted and regurgitated by others. 

According to these statistics, hospital-registered deaths contain substantially fewer women and children than implied by the 70 per cent figure. For instance, an MoH report released on the 3 March showed that since the start of the war only 58 per cent of the hospital-registered deaths are women and children (see bar-chart reproduced in Appendix 3 of this article). If we restrict analysis to 2024 deaths alone, this figure drops all the way down to 42 per cent. This is still a large proportion, but it should be remembered that women and children (the latter defined as persons under 18 years of age) make up of 75 per cent of Gaza’s population. As such, this 42 per cent figure actually reflects a significant avoidance of civilian casualties on the part of the IDF.

 

https://fathomjournal.org/statistically-impossible-a-critical-analysis-of-hamass-women-and-children-casualty-figures/

Corroborating sources

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On 4/5/2024 at 5:00 PM, I am Groot said:

If Israel doesn't remove Hamas from power, Hamas has vowed to repeat the Oct 7 massacre as often as possible. Since you want Israel to stop attacking that suggests you want Hamas to remain in power. That will obviously lead to more massacres.

The key feature of terrorism is that literally anyone can do it if they are motivated to do so
 

1.  Anyone who thinks terrorism can be ended once a list of specific individuals is killed or captured doesn’t know what they are talking about 

2. Anyone who doesn’t understand that indiscriminately killing tens of thousands of innocent civilians, mostly women and children, deliberately burning down family homes for no reason other than cruelty, and inflicting a massive famine on a population of over 2 million will only motivate more and worse terrorism for generations to come is seriously deluding themselves. 

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11 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Uhm, yeah, okay. Sure.

The full story

 

‘Lavender’: The AI machine directing Israel’s bombing spree in Gaza

The Israeli army has marked tens of thousands of Gazans as suspects for assassination, using an AI targeting system with little human oversight and a permissive policy for casualties, +972 and Local Call reveal.

By Yuval Abraham April 3, 2024
 
 
Interview with the journalist who broke the the story 
 

Journalist Who Broke Story on Israel’s AI Warfare Discusses the Technology

 

Israeli journalist Yuval Abraham says entire Palestinian families are being wiped out inside their homes.

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1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

Subjecting civilian populations to crimes against humanity in order to compel your enemy’s surrender is not morally or legally justifiable. 

Gee...guess that makes everyone in Gaza a war criminal then.

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13 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Not by western standards.

Yes, by Western standards. I've already posted the account by Newsweek which lists all the efforts Israel has been making to avoid civilian casualties. These are not efforts Americans or other Western allies went to when they were in Iraq or Afghanistan, never mind earlier wars. 

13 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Remember Israel claims to be an enlightened western-style rights-based democracy not a brutal dictatorship like Russia or Syria or Saudi. So saying they’re somewhat better than those countries isn’t saying much.

First, Israel makes no claims. Second, they are not 'somewhat' better. Third, you avoid the point that all this 'horror' over what Israel is doing in Gaza was nowhere to be found as the death toll mounted into the hundreds of thousands in other such conflicts. Why?

13 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Certainly western nations don’t bring about the massive death tolls that Israel is racking ip. 

Do you have any idea how many civilians died in the conflicts in Afghanistan or Iraq?

13 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Proportionately that might not be true. Gaza is only 2.5m ppl compressed into a tiny area. 

1% of the population after six months of brutal war is not an enormous number. If you look at the casualty figures for the last huge war we had, which was WW2, even the comparatively small nations with fewer battles like Finland suffered as much or more. Finland's population at the time was 3.7m but 96,000 people died. France was 41m and casualties were 600k or about 1.5% of the population. Germany, on the other hand, lost more than 10% of their population. In Poland about 17% of the population died.

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13 hours ago, robosmith said:

I have seen videos of the destruction on news feeds, and it is extensive with blocks and blocks of crumbled or bombed out buildings. AKA unliveable.

And that is all you WILL see on TV. If it bleeds it leads. Boring stuff doesn't get on the TV.

13 hours ago, robosmith said:

Don't really care how it compares to Dresden, cause Palestinian residents of Gaza are NOT NAZIS.

Aren't they? I would say from all I've seen that Palestinian residents are far, far more supportive of exterminating Jews than the population of Germany ever was in WW2.  Now not every resident of Gaza supports Hamas, but not every German supported the Nazis, either. They still had to suffer so that the West could defeat the Nazis. 10% of the German population died in WW2.

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13 hours ago, robosmith said:

There is no corroborating source for Hamas statistics on deaths. Don't you understand that there is no way to actually verify the numbers? Do you imagine the World Health Organization has inspectors going around to hospitals and morgues counting bodies? I doubt they have anyone in Gaza at all. And if they do it's a Palestinian working for them who is subject to being shot out of hand by Hamas if he says anything to contradict their figures. That's assuming he would even want to, which he likely would not.

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13 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

The key feature of terrorism is that literally anyone can do it if they are motivated to do so
 

1.  Anyone who thinks terrorism can be ended once a list of specific individuals is killed or captured doesn’t know what they are talking about 

Israel has lived with terrorism for most of its existence. It knows how to handle it. What happened on October 7 was not the act of a terrorist group. No terrorist group can gather up 3,000 heavily armed gunmen for an attack. Only a government that controls a large territory and population can do that.

13 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

2. Anyone who doesn’t understand that indiscriminately killing tens of thousands of innocent civilians,

It's not indiscriminate.

13 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

mostly women and children,

According to Hamas.

13 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

deliberately burning down family homes for no reason other than cruelty,

According to Hamas.

13 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

and inflicting a massive famine on a population of over 2 million will only motivate more and worse terrorism for generations to come is seriously deluding themselves. 

What so you imagine would be worse terrorism than Oct 7? And don't think for an instant that if Hamas had been able to carry on deeper into Israel, if it had the strength it would not have done the same to every single man, woman and child in Israel. Because it most definitely would, and has said so. Nor would it have difficulty recruiting men to do it.

2 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Subjecting civilian populations to crimes against humanity in order to compel your enemy’s surrender is not morally or legally justifiable. 

The West has done it in every single war. So has every other country. What makes Israel different aside from them being Jews?

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7 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Gee...guess that makes everyone in Gaza a war criminal then.

Because YOU IMAGINE that "everyone in Gaza" including the children, are "subjecting civilian populations to crimes against humanity"?

You are delusional.

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6 hours ago, I am Groot said:

And that is all you WILL see on TV. If it bleeds it leads. Boring stuff doesn't get on the TV.

That is bad enough.

6 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Aren't they? I would say from all I've seen that Palestinian residents are far, far more supportive of exterminating Jews than the population of Germany ever was in WW2.  Now not every resident of Gaza supports Hamas, but not every German supported the Nazis, either. They still had to suffer so that the West could defeat the Nazis. 10% of the German population died in WW2.

 

The conflict between Palestinians and Jews was STARTED by ZIONISTS declaring Palestine land THEIRS in 1948.

They terrorized 10s of thousands of Palestinians out of their homes to cement their Jewish majority territory.

There is NO COMPARISON between Palestinians fighting to regain THEIR HOMES & LAND, and Nazis deporting Jews to death camps.

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6 hours ago, I am Groot said:

There is no corroborating source for Hamas statistics on deaths. Don't you understand that there is no way to actually verify the numbers? Do you imagine the World Health Organization has inspectors going around to hospitals and morgues counting bodies? I doubt they have anyone in Gaza at all. And if they do it's a Palestinian working for them who is subject to being shot out of hand by Hamas if he says anything to contradict their figures. That's assuming he would even want to, which he likely would not.

NO DATA ^HERE to confirm your OPINIONS.

The Science Is Clear. Over 30,000 People Have Died in Gaza

Quote

In December, the medical journal The Lancet, published two critiques of the death surveillance process done by extremely experienced scholars at Johns Hopkins and The London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine. Both concluded that the Gazan numbers were plausible and credible, albeit by somewhat different techniques and logic.

The Hopkins’ analysis looked at internal aspects of the data like comparing hospital trend reports to the overall numbers, but also compared the death rates among U.N. employees with the overall MOH reports in terms of trends and mechanisms of death. There are a huge number of U.N. employees in Gaza, and very close correlations between the rates of death of U.N. employees and the overall population, and regarding the fraction dying under bombs in their homes.

The London School’s analysis looked at some of the same issues, found near perfect correlation between Government bombing reports and satellite imagery, but focused on 7,000 deaths reported through health facilities and morgues during last October. In Gaza, there is a resident ID system which involves a number assigned to young children, and the assigned numbers have risen sequentially over more than half a century with a couple of exceptions. At two different times 20 years apart, there have been “catch-up” campaigns where people of any age who had been missed or had migrated to Gaza could get an ID number. The data analyzed by the London group came directly from many health facilities and morgues, and constituted most of the summary numbers later released by the MOH. In the data, when people’s ID numbers were plotted against the decedent’s age, there were two broad bands of age associated exactly with the ID numbers that had been given out in those catch-up campaigns. Given that this data was flowing from many different medical and morgue facilities, the authors concluded that it is very unlikely that there could be meaningful data fabrication.

 

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3 hours ago, robosmith said:

Because YOU IMAGINE that "everyone in Gaza" including the children, are "subjecting civilian populations to crimes against humanity"?

You are delusional.

No I don't. But I'm intelligent enough to know war is hell. 

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