U.S. Support for Israel’s War Has Become Indefensible

[robosmith]

U.S. Support for Israel’s War Has Become Indefensible

Quote

Sheer force cannot make Palestinians accept the violence done to them, the destruction wrought on their homes, and their fate as a subject population, deprived of self-determination. Recent polls show two-thirds of Gazans blaming Israel for their suffering, and most of the rest blaming the United States, while in the West Bank support for armed struggle has risen. Defenders of Israel will often reference a quote attributed to Golda Meir: “If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel.” But that’s not how Palestinians experience it. Even before October 7, the rate of settler violence against Palestinians in the West Bank was on track to reach an all-time high in 2023. More attacks followed.

A good pretext for a war does not make a war just. War needs to be carried out without brutality and drive at a just political end. Israel is failing on both counts. Hamas may be horrific, but just because you’ve diagnosed a malignant tumor doesn’t mean you hand a rusty scalpel to a drunk and tell him to cut away while the patient screams in terror.

All of which calls into question America’s support for this war. Washington never even tried to make its aid conditional on Israel’s abiding by the standards of wartime conduct that Americans have come to expect. The Biden administration has twice bypassed congressional review in order to provide weapons to Israel. Senator Bernie Sanders proposed having the State Department investigate possible Israeli human-rights violations, but the Senate rejected the bid. Any policy relying on less debate and greater ignorance should raise alarms in a democracy. The administration’s policy has already hurt America’s standing globally.

Defenders of the war often ask: If not this, what should Israel be doing? Some of the answers to that question are fairly easy. Israel should not approve strikes that will predictably kill more than 100 civilians for limited military gain. It should not bomb entire neighborhoods to rubble. And it must make an aggressive commitment to providing humanitarian relief, rather than being a stumbling block to groups trying to save lives in the midst of starvation.

Other answers are more difficult, because to imagine a postwar Gaza that might lead to peace, or at least to the weakening of violent forces around the region, would be to imagine a very different Israeli government—one that could credibly commit to helping facilitate the rebuilding of a Palestinian government in Gaza and the provision of full political rights to the people there. Instead, Israel has a government that just announced the largest West Bank land seizure in decades, and whose prime minister offers nothing to Palestinians but “full Israeli security control of all the territory west of the Jordan.”

Perhaps October 7 will be Israel’s 9/11, or 20 9/11s—not just because of the scale of the losses, but because of the foolishness and cruelty of the response. And a few years from now, if I talk with a survivor of this devastating war, will he blame Hamas for provoking it? I would guess that he’ll blame the country that bombed him without mercy and restricted the delivery of food while his family starved to death. And he’ll blame America for enabling it. And so will the rest of the world. And they’ll be right. 

The only thing which is certain is the Palestinians would have NO PUSHBACK against Israeli barbarism from the US if Trump were POTUS.

It is CLEAR that Israel's extreme right government is intent on ethnic cleansing of West Bank and Gaza Palestinians which is why they have NO PLAN for SAFELY moving Palestinians in South Gaza before invading Rafah.
 

[Rebound]

Of course, Hamas can surrender any time they want.

[herbie]

It's got to the point people are wondering if they have to. Israel's dragged this invasion of a miniscule place on for so damn long it looks like the siege of Stalingrad. Endless destruction and civilian casualties topped with a sprinkling of utter military incompetence.

 

[robosmith]

7 minutes ago, herbie said:

It's got to the point people are wondering if they have to.

Have to what? 

7 minutes ago, herbie said:

Israel's dragged this invasion of a miniscule place on for so damn long it looks like the siege of Stalingrad. Endless destruction and civilian casualties topped with a sprinkling of utter military incompetence.

It appears that the goal is far more to make Gaza uninhabitable than just to find and kill Hamas members.

First step in highly motivating Palestinians to LEAVE. AKA, ethnic cleansing.

Similar to the harassment of Palestinians in the West Bank.

Edited April 5, 2024 by robosmith

[herbie]

6 minutes ago, robosmith said:

Have to what? 

surrender.

6 minutes ago, robosmith said:

It appears that the goal is far more to make Gaza uninhabitable than just to find and kill Hamas members.

certainly beginning to look that way.

[West]

^^^ the OP supports taking young women as hostages and using children as human shields

[robosmith]

3 minutes ago, West said:

^^^ the OP supports taking young women as hostages and using children as human shields

Quote where ^this is said or ADMIT YOU'RE LYING.

[I am Groot]

9 minutes ago, robosmith said:

Quote where ^this is said or ADMIT YOU'RE LYING.

If Israel doesn't remove Hamas from power, Hamas has vowed to repeat the Oct 7 massacre as often as possible. Since you want Israel to stop attacking that suggests you want Hamas to remain in power. That will obviously lead to more massacres.

[Nationalist]

The only way these cornered Palestinians survive, is by leaving Gaza and crossing into Egypt. I understand a giant camp is being setup for that on the Egyptian side of that border.

Edited April 5, 2024 by Nationalist

[robosmith]

18 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

If Israel doesn't remove Hamas from power, Hamas has vowed to repeat the Oct 7 massacre as often as possible. Since you want Israel to stop attacking that suggests you want Hamas to remain in power. That will obviously lead to more massacres.

Neither I nor the article I posted says ANYTHING about Israel NOT eliminating Hamas.

No ONE said "stop attacking," WE say STOP KILLING non-combatants with indiscriminate BOMBS and FAMINE.

And neither you nor West has quoted anything which supports HIS CLAIM.

The thing that none of the Israel supporters here acknowledge is that Netanyahu and the IDF are just as responsible for Hamas' successful attack as is Hamas. They KNEW about the plans for a year, and when it happened took 10+ HOURS to respond with force. In addition, 3 weeks before the attack, Netanyahu's aid was asked by Qatar if he wanted $Ms of aid to continue being paid TO HAMAS and they were told to CONTINUE PAYING HAMAS.

Sorry but I just don't believe that Netanyahu thought he was "buying peace" while continuing to tolerate violence against Palestinians in the West Bank.

5 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

The only way these cornered Palestinians survive, is by leaving Gaza and crossing into Egypt. I understand a giant camp is being setup for that on the Egyptian side of that border.

Why do you "understand" that when Egypt has repeatedly refused to open the gate?

[Nationalist]

16 minutes ago, robosmith said:

Neither I nor the article I posted says ANYTHING about Israel NOT eliminating Hamas.

No ONE said "stop attacking," WE say STOP KILLING non-combatants with indiscriminate BOMBS and FAMINE.

And neither you nor West has quoted anything which supports HIS CLAIM.

The thing that none of the Israel supporters here acknowledge is that Netanyahu and the IDF are just as responsible for Hamas' successful attack as is Hamas. They KNEW about the plans for a year, and when it happened took 10+ HOURS to respond with force. In addition, 3 weeks before the attack, Netanyahu's aid was asked by Qatar if he wanted $Ms of aid to continue being paid TO HAMAS and they were told to CONTINUE PAYING HAMAS.

Sorry but I just don't believe that Netanyahu thought he was "buying peace" while continuing to tolerate violence against Palestinians in the West Bank.

Why do you "understand" that when Egypt has repeatedly refused to open the gate?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/16/egypt-building-walled-enclosure-in-sinai-for-rafah-refugees-videos-suggest

Your gonna be wrong again...aren't ya.

[robosmith]

5 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/16/egypt-building-walled-enclosure-in-sinai-for-rafah-refugees-videos-suggest

Your gonna be wrong again...aren't ya.

Wrong to ask you a question? That IS admittedly highly at risk of a waste of time.

[Nationalist]

Just now, robosmith said:

Wrong to ask you a question? That IS admittedly highly at risk of a waste of time.

You asked...I answered.

You're gonna be wrong...again.

[robosmith]

9 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/16/egypt-building-walled-enclosure-in-sinai-for-rafah-refugees-videos-suggest

Your gonna be wrong again...aren't ya.

Yep, waste of time. From your cite:

Quote

The videos, dated 15 February, gave little indication of authorities installing water or other infrastructure. Satellite imagery released by Planet Labs on the same day shows cleared strips of land adjacent to the Gaza border.

...

Egypt has pushed back against any suggestion, including from Israeli ministers, that Palestinians could flee into northern Sinai. The president, Abdel Fatah al-Sisi, and the foreign minister, Sameh Shoukry, rejected what they called “the forced displacement of Palestinians from their land”.

Looks like EMERGENCY CONTAINMENT, not meant to HOUSE ANYONE, let alone 1M+ refugees.

5 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

You asked...I answered.

You're gonna be wrong...again.

Your cite is a BUST.

[WestCanMan]

2 hours ago, herbie said:

It's got to the point people are wondering if they have to. Israel's dragged this invasion of a miniscule place on for so damn long it looks like the siege of Stalingrad. Endless destruction and civilian casualties topped with a sprinkling of utter military incompetence.

If you think of it from a different angle, everyone under 60 yrs old could have walked from the north end of the gaza strip to Egypt in a single day. It's only 25 miles long.

The fact that the Israelis are taking so long to go 25 miles means that they're not trying to indiscriminately kill civilians. 

Basically all the people who are still in Gaza are being used as meat-shields. 

Edited April 5, 2024 by WestCanMan

[Nationalist]

26 minutes ago, robosmith said:

Yep, waste of time. From your cite:

Looks like EMERGENCY CONTAINMENT, not meant to HOUSE ANYONE, let alone 1M+ refugees.

Your cite is a BUST.

We will see...

[I am Groot]

2 hours ago, robosmith said:

Neither I nor the article I posted says ANYTHING about Israel NOT eliminating Hamas.

No ONE said "stop attacking," WE say STOP KILLING non-combatants with indiscriminate BOMBS and FAMINE.

The IDF can no more avoid harming civilians in an urban war than any other army has in the past. The US has done the same, even in more rural settings, like drones firing into wedding parties - or dumb pilots dropping bombs on Canadians training and practicing on the ground.

[robosmith]

8 hours ago, Nationalist said:

We will see...

Let us know when they put in water, sewage and electricity, k?

[robosmith]

6 hours ago, I am Groot said:

The IDF can no more avoid harming civilians in an urban war than any other army has in the past. The US has done the same, even in more rural settings, like drones firing into wedding parties - or dumb pilots dropping bombs on Canadians training and practicing on the ground.

Isolated mistakes is not the same as carpet bombing an urban environment pulverizing ALL the buildings.

[Nationalist]

5 hours ago, robosmith said:

Let us know when they put in water, sewage and electricity, k?

Sure. You let me know when you get something right...k?

[robosmith]

6 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Sure. You let me know when you get something right...k?

^Too much work, you'll just have to read ALL my posts.

Of course, NOTHING EVER penetrates your cognitive dissonance, so I don't expect you to be able recognize "right" when it bites you in the ass, since your record proves you CANNOT.

[ironstone]

On 4/5/2024 at 1:59 PM, robosmith said:

The only thing which is certain is the Palestinians would have NO PUSHBACK against Israeli barbarism from the US if Trump were POTUS.

It is CLEAR that Israel's extreme right government is intent on ethnic cleansing of West Bank and Gaza Palestinians which is why they have NO PLAN for SAFELY moving Palestinians in South Gaza before invading Rafah.

You talk about Israeli barbarism?  This is what they are fighting against:

They are telling the world exactly what their intentions are with Israel and Jews everywhere.

And this is who you are defending?

[ironstone]

12 hours ago, robosmith said:

Isolated mistakes is not the same as carpet bombing an urban environment pulverizing ALL the buildings.

I certainly do not claim to be any kind of military expert, but I can say for sure that the IDF does not carpet bomb.

Actual carpet bombing is more akin to the massive bombing raids in WW2. Hundreds of bombers, sometimes up to a thousand on one raid. 

[robosmith]

7 minutes ago, ironstone said:

You talk about Israeli barbarism?  This is what they are fighting against:

They are telling the world exactly what their intentions are with Israel and Jews everywhere.

And this is who you are defending?

Where do you see me defending Hamas?

They can BOTH be in the wrong. Hamas barbarism DOES NOT justify Israeli barbarism.

3 minutes ago, ironstone said:

I certainly do not claim to be any kind of military expert, but I can say for sure that the IDF does not carpet bomb.

Actual carpet bombing is more akin to the massive bombing raids in WW2. Hundreds of bombers, sometimes up to a thousand on one raid. 

Gaza is much smaller than that. Doesn't take hundreds of bombers to level the place.

[ironstone]

1 minute ago, robosmith said:

Where do you see me defending Hamas?

They can BOTH be in the wrong. Hamas barbarism DOES NOT justify Israeli barbarism.

I'm certain that the IDF does not use the same tactics as Hamas in that they don't rape the women and girls, they don't behead children or deliberately target civilians. It is Hamas that causes the casualties when they use their own as human shields. It is Hamas that hides in Shifa hospital with civilians.

War isn't a game of exact reciprocity either. They kill 1300 so we can't kill more than 1300? Doesn't work like that. The IDF has the right to go in and flush out Hamas whether they are in their hundreds of miles of tunnels or on the ground behind women and children as they are apt to do.