Ukraine Can't Win the War

[Nationalist]

4 hours ago, User said:

Dude, you are back to not answering my questions or responding to all of what I post again. 

You have as much influence on world events with Russia here as you do with Ukraine or US policy. And to that point, you can support US/Ukraine policy that puts more pressure on Russia to stop the war if that is what you are really after here. That is my point in saying this, that you are ignoring Russia and the policy you do support plays into what Russia wants... why, it is almost as if you support Russia here and you do cheer for them to win. 

So again, what are your motives? Why do you continue to push inaccurate assertions and things that might as well be Russian propaganda?

I watched the video... was there any particular point you wanted to discuss beyond the fact these guys are saying the same thing you are? 

I did not call you a puppet or anyone a puppet. 

What reality is it you think I am ignoring here?

Nothing any of us...and that includes Brandon...Will convince the Russians to retreat. Nothing. Do I want an end to the war? Of course. So knowing the reality of the situation, which course of action would you figure serves the purpose of ending the war?

1. Demanding Russia retreat from Crimea and the eastern region they've taken?

2. Negotiating terms for an end to the war?

[User]

7 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Nothing any of us...and that includes Brandon...Will convince the Russians to retreat. Nothing. Do I want an end to the war? Of course. So knowing the reality of the situation, which course of action would you figure serves the purpose of ending the war?

1. Demanding Russia retreat from Crimea and the eastern region they've taken?

2. Negotiating terms for an end to the war?

You are speaking with a forked tongue and this is a false dilemma. 

Russia will have little motivation to negotiate for an end to the war, what makes you think they would, if we are not supporting Ukraine and you oppose our support for Ukraine. 

 

 

[Nationalist]

4 hours ago, User said:

You are speaking with a forked tongue and this is a false dilemma. 

Russia will have little motivation to negotiate for an end to the war, what makes you think they would, if we are not supporting Ukraine and you oppose our support for Ukraine. 

 

 

Russia has said they are will to negotiate a peace deal all along.

Zelinsky made it illegal to deal with Putin. 

[User]

5 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Russia has said they are will to negotiate a peace deal all along.

Zelinsky made it illegal to deal with Putin. 

I already addressed your absurd claims in the other thread, which you ignored. 

Let me copy paste if for you so you can ignore it again:

"I am, quite frankly, not entirely interested in your history revision here, leaving out a lot of details to make such specious conclusions. 

I mean, before Zelensky passed that law, Putin make the proclomation that several terroritories would be Russian forever... which prompted this response, not that Borris Johnson was characterized a month earlier as sabotaging peace talks... (which is also disputed) and missing a lot of context around the unrealistic demands being made at the time...

“He does not know what dignity and honesty are. Therefore, we are ready for a dialog with Russia, but with another president of Russia,” Zelensky said on Friday.

https://nypost.com/2022/10/04/zelensky-signs-law-declaring-talks-with-putin-impossible/"

This is precisely why I question your motives here and why you likely ignore the question whenever I ask it. You are literally here pushing Russian propaganda, like honest and noble Putin has been willing to deal all along! Give me a break. 

[Nationalist]

22 hours ago, User said:

I already addressed your absurd claims in the other thread, which you ignored. 

Let me copy paste if for you so you can ignore it again:

"I am, quite frankly, not entirely interested in your history revision here, leaving out a lot of details to make such specious conclusions. 

I mean, before Zelensky passed that law, Putin make the proclomation that several terroritories would be Russian forever... which prompted this response, not that Borris Johnson was characterized a month earlier as sabotaging peace talks... (which is also disputed) and missing a lot of context around the unrealistic demands being made at the time...

“He does not know what dignity and honesty are. Therefore, we are ready for a dialog with Russia, but with another president of Russia,” Zelensky said on Friday.

https://nypost.com/2022/10/04/zelensky-signs-law-declaring-talks-with-putin-impossible/"

This is precisely why I question your motives here and why you likely ignore the question whenever I ask it. You are literally here pushing Russian propaganda, like honest and noble Putin has been willing to deal all along! Give me a break. 

You asked my motivation for wanting a peace deal. For thinking Johnson killed the '22 peace negotiation. For believing Ukraine cannot possibly win back the territory Russia has taken.

I told you. You don't believe me. It seems you cannot fathom why anyone would take the position I have, unless they want Russia to succeed. Unfortunately I just don't care who controls Crimea or those eastern provinces. If I care at all, it's that business as usual is not interrupted. 

The reality of the situation is and always has been, unless NATO wades in with troops, it's a war of attrition that Ukraine can't win. Thus common sense dictates a truce be negotiated.

And I do not believe Johnson's claims of innocence. Not for a second. NATO found an opportunity to ditch all their old munitions and justified spending billions on new munitions. Marvie...at the cost of hundreds of thousands of lives...

Edited May 19 by Nationalist

[User]

3 hours ago, Nationalist said:

You asked my motivation for wanting a peace deal. For thinking Johnson killed the '22 peace negotiation. For believing Ukraine cannot possibly win back the territory Russia has taken.

I told you. You don't believe me. It seems you cannot fathom why anyone would take the position I have, unless they want Russia to succeed. Unfortunately I just don't care who controls Crimea or those eastern provinces. If I care at all, it's that business as usual is not interrupted. 

The reality of the situation is and always has been, unless NATO wades in with troops, it's a war of attrition that Ukraine can't win. Thus common sense dictates a truce be negotiated.

And I do not believe Johnson's claims of innocence. Not for a second. NATO found an opportunity to ditch all their old munitions and justified spending billions on new munitions. Marvie...at the cost of hundreds of thousands of lives...

So, you believe Russia, push Russian propaganda, believe Putin... and think there is some big NATO conspiracy to push a war in Ukraine so they can spend money on munitions. This is not a serious position. 

It's also duplicitous because there will be no real reason for Russia to negotiate a truce if we don't support Ukraine... and you cheered on Russia destroying them. 

Yeah, its pretty clear whose side you are on here and who you want to win, as you have explicitly been quoted as saying as much here:

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, User said:

So, you believe Russia, push Russian propaganda, believe Putin... and think there is some big NATO conspiracy to push a war in Ukraine so they can spend money on munitions. This is not a serious position. 

It's also duplicitous because there will be no real reason for Russia to negotiate a truce if we don't support Ukraine... and you cheered on Russia destroying them. 

Yeah, its pretty clear whose side you are on here and who you want to win, as you have explicitly been quoted as saying as much here:

Except you ignore the entire quote. That's not like you but..."So you warmongering know what it is to doom thousands to their death..."

And do they? Yup. I doubt many give a sh1t how many dead...you included apparently...as long as Ukraine fights on...while NATO feeds Zelinsky cash. And when this ends, companies like Blackrock will own their a55es.

I can't believe that in this instance, you can't see the trees for the forest. 

[Moonbox]

9 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Except you ignore the entire quote. That's not like you but..."So you warmongering know what it is to doom thousands to their death..."

The entire quote is there.  That bolded part makes absolutely no difference, and it's weird that you somehow think it does. 

If you hadn't feverishly spent the last two years promoting Putin's nonsense propaganda and doing everything you can to undermine Ukraine's struggle to remain free, someone might give you the benefit of the doubt.  

You said literally said you're hoping for the destruction of Ukraine, and everything you've done and said on the topic since has demonstrated that's what you actually want to see.    

That you think you're fooling anyone here is a joke, but it speaks loudly of your cowardly character.  

 

 

 

[Nationalist]

5 hours ago, Moonbox said:

The entire quote is there.  That bolded part makes absolutely no difference, and it's weird that you somehow think it does. 

If you hadn't feverishly spent the last two years promoting Putin's nonsense propaganda and doing everything you can to undermine Ukraine's struggle to remain free, someone might give you the benefit of the doubt.  

You said literally said you're hoping for the destruction of Ukraine, and everything you've done and said on the topic since has demonstrated that's what you actually want to see.    

That you think you're fooling anyone here is a joke, but it speaks loudly of your cowardly character.  

 

 

 

Ohhh...poor babyyy...

Did that mean ild reality thing make you look stoopid again?

What a LOSER.

[User]

19 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Except you ignore the entire quote. That's not like you but..."So you warmongering know what it is to doom thousands to their death..."

And do they? Yup. I doubt many give a sh1t how many dead...you included apparently...as long as Ukraine fights on...while NATO feeds Zelinsky cash. And when this ends, companies like Blackrock will own their a55es.

I can't believe that in this instance, you can't see the trees for the forest. 

I did not ignore the entire quote. 

Further qualifying your statement that you were saying it so that warmongers know what it is to doom thousands to their deaths doesn't change anything. You still said it. 

Are you now saying you didn't mean it? That would be some additional context that means something. 

You are pushing conspiratorial nonsense now. 

I can see just fine. 

[Nationalist]

37 minutes ago, User said:

I did not ignore the entire quote. 

Further qualifying your statement that you were saying it so that warmongers know what it is to doom thousands to their deaths doesn't change anything. You still said it. 

Are you now saying you didn't mean it? That would be some additional context that means something. 

You are pushing conspiratorial nonsense now. 

I can see just fine. 

None of which means I "support" Putin. What I do "support" is an end to this ridiculous charade. And end to the war and the mass killing and destruction. 

NATO has no intention of jumping into the fray, and Ukraine should have ignored Johnsons overtures and signed a peace deal 2 years ago.

Now I wouldn't be surprised if Russia takes Odessa.

[User]

2 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

NATO has no intention of jumping into the fray, and Ukraine should have ignored Johnsons overtures and signed a peace deal 2 years ago.

What was this peace deal you keep saying existed that you blame Johnson for killing?

 

[Nationalist]

32 minutes ago, User said:

What was this peace deal you keep saying existed that you blame Johnson for killing?

 

"When we returned from Istanbul, Boris Johnson came to Kiev and said that we would not sign anything with [the Russians] at all. And [said] ‘let’s just continue fighting.’

https://dailytelegraph.co.nz/news/boris-johnson-derailed-ukraine-peace-deal-key-zelensky-ally/

 

[User]

13 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

"When we returned from Istanbul, Boris Johnson came to Kiev and said that we would not sign anything with [the Russians] at all. And [said] ‘let’s just continue fighting.’

https://dailytelegraph.co.nz/news/boris-johnson-derailed-ukraine-peace-deal-key-zelensky-ally/

 

No, perhaps you didn't quite understand the question. 

I asked you to explain what this peace deal was. You present this as if there was an actual deal, that both sides agreed to, and then Johnson came in and blew it up. 

What there was, was a one-sided peace deal offered by Russia, which offered no security guarantees for Ukraine and Ukraine never agreed to it nor did the trust Russia. The guy you are quoting also said that too. 

So, there was never any real deal on the table. And yet again, this is one guys take on events that are disputed. 

You also ignore the fact that Ukraine was already engaged in deals BEFORE Putin invaded. Leaks from the Russian side showed that Putin rejected a deal BEFORE the invasion. 

You ignore that Putin and Russia are not trustworthy, Putin had already invaded Crimea, and was already running a shadow war in the Donbas against Ukraine. 

But yeah, sure, you want us to believe there was a peace deal on the table ready to sign and only if Borris Johnson didn't blow it up, we could have peace. 

Give me a break. 

[Nationalist]

45 minutes ago, User said:

No, perhaps you didn't quite understand the question. 

I asked you to explain what this peace deal was. You present this as if there was an actual deal, that both sides agreed to, and then Johnson came in and blew it up. 

What there was, was a one-sided peace deal offered by Russia, which offered no security guarantees for Ukraine and Ukraine never agreed to it nor did the trust Russia. The guy you are quoting also said that too. 

So, there was never any real deal on the table. And yet again, this is one guys take on events that are disputed. 

You also ignore the fact that Ukraine was already engaged in deals BEFORE Putin invaded. Leaks from the Russian side showed that Putin rejected a deal BEFORE the invasion. 

You ignore that Putin and Russia are not trustworthy, Putin had already invaded Crimea, and was already running a shadow war in the Donbas against Ukraine. 

But yeah, sure, you want us to believe there was a peace deal on the table ready to sign and only if Borris Johnson didn't blow it up, we could have peace. 

Give me a break. 

Here's a break...from the same link.

"Kiev threw out the preliminary deal as soon as Russia withdrew its troops from the vicinity of Kiev, as a gesture of good will. The pullback was portrayed by Kiev and its Western backers as a major Ukrainian military victory, which greatly reinforced the positions of those willing to pour military aid into the country.

Earlier this year, Russian President Vladimir Putin presented a draft agreement “on permanent neutrality and security guarantees for Ukraine” during a meeting with African leaders in Moscow. At the time, Putin said the Ukrainian delegation initially agreed to sign a neutrality pact that would also cap Ukraine’s heavy weapons and hardware."

There are always 2 sides to every issue and the truth is generally in the middle somewhere.

I have no doubt that Johnson was sent to squash any peace deal that was being negotiated. 

On May 20th Zelinsky's extended term ends. There will be no election in that democracy NATO claims to be protecting though.

Here are some rather generous stats...

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1296573/russia-ukraine-military-comparison/

The Russians are now moving into northern Ukraine hardly opposed. In the meantime, they are moving towards Odessa. Should they take it, Ukraine will be fcked. No sea port, no trade other than by land and air.

How much further would you say Zelinsky should take this?

Edited May 20 by Nationalist

[User]

3 hours ago, Nationalist said:

There are always 2 sides to every issue and the truth is generally in the middle somewhere.

What are the 2 sides you are presenting here and what is the truth in the middle you accept? You are only pushing one persons version of events and ignoring the others so far. 

3 hours ago, Nationalist said:

On May 20th Zelinsky's extended term ends. There will be no election in that democracy NATO claims to be protecting though.

And? Ukraine is being invaded right now, they are at war. Democracy doesn't work well when you are in the middle of a war with your country being invaded. 

And what is your point here? This goes back to your extremely disgusting views on how Ukraine deserves it? As if Putin and Russia are better or even close to being the same? Give me a break. 

3 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Here are some rather generous stats...

Did you have a point?

3 hours ago, Nationalist said:

The Russians are now moving into northern Ukraine hardly opposed. In the meantime, they are moving towards Odessa. Should they take it, Ukraine will be fcked. No sea port, no trade other than by land and air.

Hardly opposed? Sigh... a gross exaggeration. Ukraine is stretched thin right now, but Russia is hardly advancing "hardly opposed" and Ukraine has been working to bolster defenses and has stopped and hampered Russian advances in some places. 

As I have said before, this is war; there are going to be ebbs and flows as each side continually pushes on the other across the front. There may even be some break throughs here and there... you are acting like this is the war is over, when it is not. 

 

 

3 hours ago, Nationalist said:

How much further would you say Zelinsky should take this?

The question betrays your clear skewed POV here... why not how far is Putin willing to take this? Russia invaded Ukraine, they are defending themselves. They take it as far as they wish to continue to survive.  

 

[myata]

"Inevitable", what? The end of law-based international order?

The beginning of the era where anyone can invade anybody, yes with nukes?

Return to the era where might means right, this time with nukes?

One cannot be that naive to not get how much more this is about than just "Ukraine". So only two options, logically: 1) brainless 2) liar.

Pick one or both.

Edited May 20 by myata

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, User said:

What are the 2 sides you are presenting here and what is the truth in the middle you accept? You are only pushing one persons version of events and ignoring the others so far. 

And? Ukraine is being invaded right now, they are at war. Democracy doesn't work well when you are in the middle of a war with your country being invaded. 

And what is your point here? This goes back to your extremely disgusting views on how Ukraine deserves it? As if Putin and Russia are better or even close to being the same? Give me a break. 

Did you have a point?

Hardly opposed? Sigh... a gross exaggeration. Ukraine is stretched thin right now, but Russia is hardly advancing "hardly opposed" and Ukraine has been working to bolster defenses and has stopped and hampered Russian advances in some places. 

As I have said before, this is war; there are going to be ebbs and flows as each side continually pushes on the other across the front. There may even be some break throughs here and there... you are acting like this is the war is over, when it is not. 

 

 

The question betrays your clear skewed POV here... why not how far is Putin willing to take this? Russia invaded Ukraine, they are defending themselves. They take it as far as they wish to continue to survive.  

 

On one side you have Ukraine. A state that's existed for 33 years. The eastern provinces were under Russian rule since the mid-1600's. That portion of Ukraine has always been majority Russian. 

After '91 when Ukraine was created, Ukrainian nationalists began to suppress Russian culture and language. I don't blame them for doing so. The Ukrainians had every reason to not like Russians and there was a strong nationalist...or nation-building sentiment.  Unfortunately this lead to the Russians of that eastern area to rebel and finally in 2014 a referendum was held first in Crimea and then in the eastern provinces in which they voted to separate from Ukraine and ally themselves with Russia. 

Russia took Crimea immediately. The nationalist forces in Ukraine began attacking the provinces and a sort of guerrilla war broke out.

Was Russia supporting the Russian separatists? Yes. 

Do I understand the Ukraine wanting to nationalize their language and culture? Yes.

Eventually, the Russian Duma...not Putin...decided to move their military into the disputed region. The invasion and war began.

Like I said...2 sides to the story. Should Russia have invaded? Not in my opinion. They already had Crimea which really was the strategic prize. But they decided they had to defend the separatists.

When that happened I examined the potential of both forces and realized if Russia wanted the Eastern region, they had more than enough strength to take it. Which they did.

All our money and arms have only prolonged the rather inevitable outcome. IMO, Russia has no desire to "rule" western Ukraine. I think they'll get to the Dnieper river and Odessa and stop. Dug in as they are already, Russian forces and the separatist provinces will be a reality for the foreseeable future.

It makes little to no sense for Ukraine to continue to commit national hari cari. They should negotiate peace with the Russians and re-build the west. That would save lives and allow both sides to "heal".

As for NATO...what they are doing now is just gross. It's downright mean. We (NATO) had no skin in this fight and should have stayed out of it. All they accomplished was to prolong the inevitable...at the cost of billions of our money...and hundreds of thousands of lives.

Edited May 20 by Nationalist

[Moonbox]

17 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Ohhh...poor babyyy...

Did that mean ild reality thing make you look stoopid again?

What a LOSER.

As usual, you can't actually defend yourself, or your logic - just limp insults.  🤡  

[Nationalist]

7 hours ago, Moonbox said:

As usual, you can't actually defend yourself, or your logic - just limp insults.  🤡  

Logic? Lol...Moonbat have you been paying attention?

https://news.sky.com/story/russia-advancing-from-multiple-positions-after-delays-in-western-military-aid-kharkiv-governor-warns-13134928

The dirty little secret is, Ukraine's military is decimated. They are begging Europe to return all the Ukrainian refugees and are pulling men off the streets in Ukraine. 

Your logic is non-existent. The logical thing to do is negotiate a peace deal.

[myata]

Note how there are no intelligible answers? Let's try again:

"Inevitable", what?

A complete and final dismantling of the peaceful world order?

The end (de facto already) of the Charter and with it, the whole concept of the United Nations?

No means or foundations of security other then groups and alliances armed to the throat including nukes?

This is "inevitable", that future? Great job: you've only proven who you are. Or brainless, brainlessly repeating obvious lies. Pick one or both. What other options?

Edited May 21 by myata

[User]

16 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Unfortunately this lead to the Russians of that eastern area to rebel and finally in 2014 a referendum was held first in Crimea and then in the eastern provinces in which they voted to separate from Ukraine and ally themselves with Russia. 

You might as well be working for Putin pushing this propaganda. 

Unfortunately, this led to the Russians rebelling?!

Russia funded that rebellion, armed that rebellion, and pushed that rebellion. Hell, Russia was putting troops there covertly to back them as well. 

Let's not pretend like this was all some naturally occurring uprising here. 

16 hours ago, Nationalist said:

But they decided they had to defend the separatists.

This is such revisionist BS. Not based on any facts and 100% pushing pro-Russian propaganda. 

16 hours ago, Nationalist said:

It makes little to no sense for Ukraine to continue to commit national hari cari. They should negotiate peace with the Russians and re-build the west. That would save lives and allow both sides to "heal".

They can't negotiate peace with someone from a position of weakness if we are not supporting them and a real peace deal must come with security guarantees which Russia is not offering. 

You expect Ukraine to give Russia everything and basically just trust that Russia is going to behave like a honest and trustworthy peace partner. 

AFTER Russia had already taken Crimea and had already instigated the rebellion in the Donbas. 

16 hours ago, Nationalist said:

As for NATO...what they are doing now is just gross. It's downright mean. We (NATO) had no skin in this fight and should have stayed out of it. All they accomplished was to prolong the inevitable...at the cost of billions of our money...and hundreds of thousands of lives.

No, this is exactly what you should be saying about Russia. You show more disdain towards NATO for supporting Ukraine against Russia than you do for what Russia did to Ukraine in the Donbas. 

And yet again... none of this was actually a direct response to anything I had previous just said to you. 

[Perspektiv]

25 minutes ago, User said:

security guarantees

Even with security guarantees, with Russia this is meaningless.

It would almost take US boots or Ukraine joining NATO once Russia leaves to secure this guaranty.

Otherwise its an offer that holds no weight.

[myata]

Not much luck so far. Could this be the real reason:

1 hour ago, User said:

You show more disdain towards NATO for supporting Ukraine against Russia than you do for what Russia did to Ukraine in the Donbas. 

And more of course, just round the corner:

- What it does to the international order based on law and peaceful coexistence?

- What did it do to the UN Charter and the system of world security?

- How will it work out in the future, where every dictator thug respecting themselves will have a few hundred nukes, just in case?

Keep trying your best to overlook the obvious.

[Moonbox]

2 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Logic? Lol...Moonbat have you been paying attention?

https://news.sky.com/story/russia-advancing-from-multiple-positions-after-delays-in-western-military-aid-kharkiv-governor-warns-13134928

To what?  That after 6 months of delays for arms supply, Russia managed to capture a handful of tiny villages, before stalling out yet again?  

6 hours ago, Nationalist said:

The dirty little secret is, Ukraine's Russia's military is decimated. They are begging Europe to return all the Ukrainian refugees punishing the hundreds of thousands who left the country to avoid the draft, and are dragging men off the streets in Ukraine Russia to serve as cannon fodder.  

Fixed that for you.  

6 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Your logic is non-existent. The logical thing to do is negotiate a peace deal.

My logic easily demonstrates how bad yours is.  See the above quote.  Russia has manpower shortages too, and also shittier leadership, less motivated troops, and nothing worthwhile to fight for.   

The logical thing to do isn't to make a shitty peace deal on Russian terms.  LOL!