User Posted June 18 Report Share Posted June 18 39 minutes ago, Perspektiv said: No, but am also a realist. No, you are literally advocating for just that... when there are other options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonbox Posted June 18 Report Share Posted June 18 On 6/17/2024 at 12:00 PM, User said: My bad, I was not quite onto your little troll job yet. I am now. Of course you were. You were the example I was following. Maybe you realize now how irritating and pointless it is. Maybe not. That's up to you! 🫡 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perspektiv Posted June 18 Author Report Share Posted June 18 3 hours ago, User said: No, you are literally advocating for just that... when there are other options. What options don't involve more war? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 18 Report Share Posted June 18 42 minutes ago, Perspektiv said: What options don't involve more war? LOL, more war is what happens when you don't effectively surrender like you want Ukraine to do. Of course that is the other option. Your argument is falsely that effectively surrendering is the only option. 1 hour ago, Moonbox said: Of course you were. You were the example I was following. Maybe you realize now how irritating and pointless it is. Maybe not. That's up to you! 🫡 The only thing you are proving is how irritatingly pointless you are trying to be in more threads than one, all because you got caught repeatedly lying and still won't own up to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUI_Offender Posted June 18 Report Share Posted June 18 11 hours ago, Perspektiv said: Negotiations is the only way to end this nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUI_Offender Posted June 18 Report Share Posted June 18 On 6/17/2024 at 5:43 AM, Nationalist said: Hilarious. You still carry the "RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA" torch eh? I guess when ya got nothing better...bullshit will suffice. Come on now. Give us the full Monte. "TRUMP! RUSSIA! OIL! AAAHHH! WE ALL GONNA DIIIEEE!" So pathetic. At least I am not a Nationalist Socialist like yourself. Seriously, why not just come out of the closet, and say that you get all your political opinions from bad YouTube videos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted June 18 Report Share Posted June 18 2 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said: At least I am not a Nationalist Socialist like yourself. Seriously, why not just come out of the closet, and say that you get all your political opinions from bad YouTube videos. I'm white...I'm a nationalist...and I wear it well Gawd Damnit. Giggle You can't shame me for wanting what's best for my nation. Sorry Tweenkie-Poo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perspektiv Posted June 18 Author Report Share Posted June 18 46 minutes ago, User said: more war is what happens when you don't effectively surrender like you want Ukraine to do. Translation, you don't have a other solution to continuing the conflict. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 18 Report Share Posted June 18 Just now, Perspektiv said: Translation, you don't have a other solution to continuing the conflict. Your claim was that negotiation was the only way. My only point was that it wasn't. But yes... Russia is trying to conquer Ukraine or, allegedly now, concede to negotiate outrageous terms in their favor. The options are... you surrender to them or you fight them. You support effective surrender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted June 18 Report Share Posted June 18 13 minutes ago, User said: Your claim was that negotiation was the only way. My only point was that it wasn't. But yes... Russia is trying to conquer Ukraine or, allegedly now, concede to negotiate outrageous terms in their favor. The options are... you surrender to them or you fight them. You support effective surrender. Wait a minute. I read Putin's offer. It didn't even include Odessa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUI_Offender Posted June 18 Report Share Posted June 18 1 hour ago, Perspektiv said: Translation, you don't have a other solution to continuing the conflict. Translation, you want the Holodomor 2.0 to occur. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 18 Report Share Posted June 18 27 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said: Translation, you want the Holodomor 2.0 to occur. Exactly. Russia Takes Crimea Russia Starts Proxy War in Donbas Russia Invades Ukraine These guys want Ukraine to negotiate peace with Russia, as if that means there will actually be peace. Meanwhile, Russia takes the time for negotiations or "peace" to push more proxy wars or prepare for another invasion for whatever excuse they dream up next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUI_Offender Posted June 19 Report Share Posted June 19 4 hours ago, Nationalist said: Wait a minute. I read Putin's offer. It didn't even include Odessa. You still have not elaborated as to why Odessa should be given to Russia as a "peace" agreement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted June 19 Report Share Posted June 19 1 hour ago, DUI_Offender said: You still have not elaborated as to why Odessa should be given to Russia as a "peace" agreement. I don't think it should be given to Russia. I'm a bit surprised by its absence from the Russian offer, but that's it. With this offer, Ukraine maintains its primary sea port. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perspektiv Posted June 19 Author Report Share Posted June 19 14 hours ago, User said: My only point was that it wasn't. Of course, you can continue the conflict. Always other options. In my opinion, best option is to grind this out until you feel desperation from the other side. You negotiate with a high hand, not when they are making gains and can demand more at the table. Ultimately, and I am quite confident on it, Ukraine will lose some land to Russia. Negotiations will not bring peace. You're bringing a stop to the conflict. There will be no peace possible, until Ukraine either joins NATO, or has high volumes of US personel stationed in the country along with weapons that better rival Russia's. You don't break into a home knowing the person is heavily armed. You know its a soft target, you will never stop. Russia is as cocky as it is, because it knows it can continue straddling a certain line, and there will be no actual intervention from anyone other than weapons. Right now, they have the negotiating power. This war continues for a year or two, and am not so confident that still will be the case. When they need to negotiate, will be the time to make a pitch to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 19 Report Share Posted June 19 1 hour ago, Perspektiv said: Of course, you can continue the conflict. Always other options. And, yet again, you flip-flop. Are you an entirely different person all of a sudden because your entire post is contradictory to everything you have been saying so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted June 19 Report Share Posted June 19 3 hours ago, User said: And, yet again, you flip-flop. Are you an entirely different person all of a sudden because your entire post is contradictory to everything you have been saying so far. Wait a minute. No he did not "flip-flop". He acknowledged other potential avenues to proceed. Not one he'd choose (me either), but other avenues none the less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 19 Report Share Posted June 19 5 minutes ago, Nationalist said: Wait a minute. No he did not "flip-flop". He acknowledged other potential avenues to proceed. Not one he'd choose (me either), but other avenues none the less. Yes, repeatedly throughout this discussion, he claimed negotiations were the "only" way out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted June 19 Report Share Posted June 19 Just now, User said: Yes, repeatedly throughout this discussion, he claimed negotiations were the "only" way out. K I'm not gonna wade through this thread, so I'll take your word for it. IMO...it's the most rational way out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perspektiv Posted June 19 Author Report Share Posted June 19 58 minutes ago, User said: he claimed negotiations were the "only" way out. Only way out of this conflict. Of actual warfare. You can fight it out, perpetually if you like. But I would like to believe that eventually the pressure will be on to bring this to a stop. I just don't understand how you expect to have this end without negotiation. Ukraine already has a losing hand. They have an army destroying their country. Negotiation 101, you ratchet the pressure on Russia, and bring them to their knees, and negotiate on terms that work for both. Security for Ukraine is non negotiable, meaning joining NATO, or US troops stationed in Ukraine, to name an example. Concessions for guaranteed security. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted June 19 Report Share Posted June 19 24 minutes ago, Perspektiv said: Only way out of this conflict. Of actual warfare. You can fight it out, perpetually if you like. But I would like to believe that eventually the pressure will be on to bring this to a stop. I just don't understand how you expect to have this end without negotiation. Ukraine already has a losing hand. They have an army destroying their country. Negotiation 101, you ratchet the pressure on Russia, and bring them to their knees, and negotiate on terms that work for both. Security for Ukraine is non negotiable, meaning joining NATO, or US troops stationed in Ukraine, to name an example. Concessions for guaranteed security. Ok this is true. The question is...what's it gonna be? Negotiated peace? Or an escalation of unthinkable proportions? Tell me...does anyone want to risk the unthinkable? Anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUI_Offender Posted June 19 Report Share Posted June 19 1 hour ago, Perspektiv said: blah...blah.... When are you going to provide a source for the claim you made, that North Korea's ammunition production far outpaces the west as a whole??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted June 19 Report Share Posted June 19 1 hour ago, DUI_Offender said: When are you going to provide a source for the claim you made, that North Korea's ammunition production far outpaces the west as a whole??? Quote Since September 2023, the DPRK has delivered more than 10,000 containers of munitions or munitions-related materials to Russia. Russia has imported shipping containers carrying military-related cargo from the DPRK through Vostochny Port for use in the Ukraine conflict since early October 2023 almost 5 million rounds including 152 mm and 122mm, Have been shipped since the treaty was signed...I can only assume that these were from NK war stocks....but if they were recently manufactured then i would say his statement is true. NK is out producing the western military total production of shells...Keep in mind NK has well over 20,000 arty pieces alone, not counting rocket or self propelled...there whole defense strategy is based on arty.... Quote “While North Korea’s arms factories (for non-Russian exports) operate at 30% capacity due to shortages of raw materials and electricity, the factories producing weapons and artillery shells for Russia are operating at full capacity https://www.state.gov/imposing-measures-in-response-to-navalnys-death-and-two-years-of-russias-full-scale-war-against-ukraine/#:~:text=Since September 2023%2C the DPRK,conflict since early October 2023 Meaning it's total manufacturing capacity has not being reached...and judging by the numbers they are delivering...that is a lot of capacity... Note i did not say they were the best quality, no way your going to have the same accuracy as western arty, but in these cases it is qty not quality. Quote WASHINGTON — The U.S. Army said it awarded $1.5 billion in contracts to nine companies in the U.S., Canada, India and Poland to boost global production of 155mm artillery rounds. Army officials have recently stated that 155mm artillery munition production will increase to 28,000 per month in October, which is double what the Army was producing at the start of the year. The plan is to build roughly 60,000 a month in FY24, reaching 80,000 by FY25. By FY26, the plan is to build 100,000 a month. https://www.defensenews.com/land/2023/10/06/us-army-awards-15b-to-boost-global-production-of-artillery-rounds/ Not sure what the rest of NATO is producing but no where near the amount Ukraine needs or wants , considering they are consuming between 1000 to 5000 a day, and that is restrained ammo usage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted June 19 Report Share Posted June 19 Ukraines biggest problem right now is they are at the whim of their allieds, for example US republican delays to aid meant Russia made huge gains on the battle field, which means Ukrainian soldiers suffered huge causalities' in defending. Not just the US but the rest of NATO failed to step up in any meaningful way either... That's the problem with the entire west they get bored very early, and loss interest... God knows what is going to happen when trump gets in, but i'm sure aid is not going to flow like it has been, and Canada and europe are never going to step in and fill those shoes... If NATO was smart they would be dumping in huge amounts of aid right now...But since that is not going to happen, it would be in Ukraines best interest to start peace talks... Ukraine is not in charge of it's destiny...it is heavily relying on NATO to come through and we have failed to make a major difference... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUI_Offender Posted June 19 Report Share Posted June 19 (edited) 3 hours ago, Army Guy said: almost 5 million rounds including 152 mm and 122mm, Have been shipped since the treaty was signed...I can only assume that these were from NK war stocks....but if they were recently manufactured then i would say his statement is true. It's definitely false. Currently, the US is producing almost 30 million rounds of ammunition per month, predominantly for Ukraine. 3 hours ago, Army Guy said: Not sure what the rest of NATO is producing but no where near the amount Ukraine needs or wants , considering they are consuming between 1000 to 5000 a day, and that is restrained ammo usage. The US alone is expected to double it's monthly ammunition production to 60 million shells/month, and the target is 70-80 million per month. That is the United States alone. with NATO, that number will easily eclipse 100 million shells per month by the beginning of 2025. which is exponentially higher than what North Korean is capable of. The problem is that Russia is out producing NATO countries in ammunition by a 3:1 ratio as of March 2024. Russia produces 250,000 artillery shells per month, which means NATO countries currently produce roughly 80-85,000 artillery shells for Ukraine. However, that is expected to double by 2025. The bottom line, is that North Korea is definitely not producing anywhere near the artillery that NATO countries do. Edited June 20 by DUI_Offender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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