Ukraine Can't Win the War

[User]

47 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Except you didn't quote me.  You made up a useless strawman, and now you're just playing dumb about it.  When you can quote me saying you denied what Trump said as you suggested, let me know.  Until then, this was just another useless smoke screen you've thrown up to confuse the debate.  

I have been quoting you the whole time. What is this straw man? 
 

The “debate” so far is little more than you are uber fixated about n a few stupid comments Trump made months ago, while you ignore everything else.

 Oh, the drama! 
 

48 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Other than the Kremlin taking clips of Trump deliberately lying on their behalf on global television, and blasting it on repeat for months?  No consequences there, alright.  Nope nope nope!  🤡

OK… and? It’s the Kremlin, they will lie and spin anything anyway. So what? What is the actual observable quantifiable thing you are here complaining about being so awful? 

[Moonbox]

1 hour ago, User said:

The “debate” so far is little more than you are uber fixated about n a few stupid comments Trump made months ago, while you ignore everything else.

Because they were more than just stupid comments. 🤣  This debate is about Donald Trump's intentions for Ukraine.  When he tells deliberate, disgraceful and obvious lies on the Kremlin's behalf, in what clownworld reality do you figure that signals support for Ukraine?  

I've asked you about a dozen times now to provide some sort of reasoning or explanation for why he would do such a thing, and you've ran away just as many times.  

1 hour ago, User said:

OK… and? It’s the Kremlin, they will lie and spin anything anyway. So what? What is the actual observable quantifiable thing you are here complaining about being so awful? 

So the Kremlin lies and spins "anything", and spends billions annually on Ukraine war propaganda.  Why do you think they do that?  For funsies?  🤡

[User]

3 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Because they were more than just stupid comments. 🤣  This debate is about Donald Trump's intentions for Ukraine.  When he tells deliberate, disgraceful and obvious lies on the Kremlin's behalf, in what clownworld reality do you figure that signals support for Ukraine? 

See… you slip up and add in these little lies: “on the kremlin’s behalf”

And as I already pointed out, you continue to be hyper fixated only on a few stupid comments, because you got nothing else.

You have been ignoring the things Trump has done since his first Presidency because you don’t care, you only want to hate Trump.
 

6 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

So the Kremlin lies and spins "anything", and spends billions annually on Ukraine war propaganda.  Why do you think they do that?  For funsies?  🤡

 So… you can’t offer any explanation to quantify just how bad you keep claiming this all is. 

[Moonbox]

2 minutes ago, User said:

See… you slip up and add in these little lies: “on the kremlin’s behalf”

It wasn't a slip.  It was intentional, just like it was intentional for Trump to lie on behalf of the Kremlin:

Unless you can provide an explanation on how parroting the Kremlin's propaganda was helpful to Ukraine, rather than the  Kremlin, you've clowned yourself again!  🤡

Feel free to provide an explanation for why Trump would lie like this, but we already know you'll just run away!  

6 minutes ago, User said:

You have been ignoring the things Trump has done since his first Presidency because you don’t care, you only want to hate Trump.

Are you referring to all the praise he's heaped on Putin, and the criticism on Zelensky?  Or are you talking about how since his second term he's overseen an observable and enormous decrease in material support for Ukraine, how he's attempted to bully Zelensky towards comically Russian-tilted peace plans, or how he's continued to spread a message of hopelessness and defeatism for Ukraine, and about Russia's inevitable victory?  

What part of the above has been helpful to Ukraine, rather than Russia, exactly?  🤣

[User]

34 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Unless you can provide an explanation on how parroting the Kremlin's propaganda was helpful to Ukraine, rather than the  Kremlin, you've clowned yourself again!  🤡

 

It was your absurd baseless assertion to defend with any kind of facts. It isn’t my job to disprove it with some alternative theory. 
 

The only clown here continues to be you as you cry over a few stupid comments made months ago because you must hate Trump. 
 

36 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Are you referring to all the praise he's heaped on Putin, and the criticism on Zelensky

No. I am referring to the actual literal measurable impactful and meaningful support of arms, munitions, and logistics the US continues to provide day after day after day, including what Trump did BEFORE the invasion to prevent it from happening.

You want to focus on a few stupid comments because that is all you got. 
 

 

[John Stone]

Ukraine can't win the war?

Could Great Britain triumph over the Nazi before the U.S. became involved? 

ah, NO! 

It was a near run thing for Great Britain, the U.S. was their saving grace.

So said, the greatest of British leaders, Winston Churchill. 

Is Ukraine now  so much different than GB, then?  

[Moonbox]

22 hours ago, User said:

The only clown here continues to be you as you cry over a few stupid comments made months ago because you must hate Trump. 

This is just the petulant and delusional coping mechanism you employ ad nauseum whenever anyone criticizes Trump. 

I've shown that:

1)  Trump has deliberately lied on multiple occasions to Russia's benefit.  

2) Trump continues to push a hopeless and defeatist narrative for Ukraine, and to bully Zelensky into accepting comically Russian-tilted peace terms. 

3) Trump has drastically reduced US material support for Ukraine 

Only in sycophantic MAGA clownworld would all of the above facts somehow paint a picture that Donald Trump is  committed to supporting Ukraine, rather than the exact opposite appearing to be true.  

22 hours ago, User said:

No. I am referring to the actual literal measurable impactful and meaningful support of arms, munitions, and logistics the US continues to provide day after day after day, including what Trump did BEFORE the invasion to prevent it from happening.

Were you talking about how the US (under Biden) went from being the largest supplier of military aid to Ukraine (the orange) to paying for almost nothing as soon as Trump was inaugurated?  

Wow wow wow.  Look how much Donald Trump has done for Ukraine since getting re-elected.  This is exactly what the Ukrainians needed!  🤡🤡🤡

[herbie]

You seem to forget you're arguing with the Putin blowing lying, demented surrender monkey's #1 fan who has no idea of the level of the World's contempt for the disrupting excuse of a 'leader'.

Ignorant that the words peace and surrender ate two different things.

[User]

4 hours ago, herbie said:

You seem to forget you're arguing with the Putin blowing lying, demented surrender monkey's #1 fan who has no idea of the level of the World's contempt for the disrupting excuse of a 'leader'.

Ignorant that the words peace and surrender ate two different things.

Well, we have not forgotten what a petty, pathetic, lying scumbag you are. 

[herbie]

The corrupt scambag is the one ready to sell out Ukraine to the Russians for the benefit of his billionaire clique.
You remind me of those still in Berlin bunkers gathering pistols and cyanide to do in themselves, their wives and their children to prove their loyalty to the regime.

[User]

20 minutes ago, herbie said:

The corrupt scambag is the one ready to sell out Ukraine to the Russians for the benefit of his billionaire clique.
You remind me of those still in Berlin bunkers gathering pistols and cyanide to do in themselves, their wives and their children to prove their loyalty to the regime.

He screamed into the void…

[User]

On 12/10/2025 at 11:46 AM, Moonbox said:

This is just the petulant and delusional coping mechanism you employ ad nauseum whenever anyone criticizes Trump. 

This is a stupid lie. Even here, I agree and also criticize Trump for saying stupid things. The only one acting petulant and crying is you, because you make outlandishly absurd or other ridiculous and extreme conclusions that I do take issue with. 
 

 

On 12/10/2025 at 11:46 AM, Moonbox said:

Only in sycophantic MAGA clownworld would all of the above facts somehow paint a picture that Donald Trump is  committed to supporting Ukraine, rather than the exact opposite appearing to be true.  

This is the problem. You are so obsessed with hating Trump, you only focus on the tiny handful of facts or other things you can lie about, to paint this picture while ignoring everything else. 
 

 

On 12/10/2025 at 11:46 AM, Moonbox said:

Were you talking about how the US (under Biden) went from being the largest supplier of military aid to Ukraine (the orange) to paying for almost nothing as soon as Trump was inaugurated?  

Wow wow wow.  Look how much Donald Trump has done for Ukraine since getting re-elected.  This is exactly what the Ukrainians needed!  🤡🤡🤡

Yet again, I’ve already pointed out this is expenditures, not a representation of current aid being delivered. 
 

What Ukraine needed was a leader that scared Russia and did something BEFORE they invaded. Notice, Russia didn’t invade while Trump was President. Trump supplied Ukraine with weapons before an invasion, the very weapons that helped prevent Russia from completely conquering them the first week.

Trump threatened Putin directly while he was President. 

Again, you want to ignore all these facts. 

[John Stone]

...............  if the Dems win a tripartite in the next General, and Ukraine still exists, what support will be provided to Ukraine with the WH under new management. 

Likely  Putin's biggest concern.

• 53% want U.S. to help Ukraine 
• 63% of Americans think neither side is winning the war
• More concern that Russia than Ukraine would violate peace deal, 79% vs. 26%

 

[User]

20 hours ago, John Stone said:

...............  if the Dems win a tripartite in the next General, and Ukraine still exists, what support will be provided to Ukraine with the WH under new management. 

Likely  Putin's biggest concern.

• 53% want U.S. to help Ukraine 
• 63% of Americans think neither side is winning the war
• More concern that Russia than Ukraine would violate peace deal, 79% vs. 26%

 

They had support before… and the war drug on… they still have support now from NATO nations…

No one has been willing to give them the material support they need to win outright, only prolong the slow suffering. 

[SpankyMcFarland]

The situation remains grim for Ukraine. One must find hope where one can. In the great victories of the past, Russians often had home advantage but this time their soldiers are on foreign soil and vital domestic infrastructure is also in range. Ukraine’s ability to hit oil refineries and power plants has changed significantly in the last year as domestic production of missiles and long-range drones has ramped up. If it comes down to motivation there’s a big gap: Ukraine must fight; Russia has a choice. 
 

Edited December 16, 2025 by SpankyMcFarland

[Moonbox]

On 12/12/2025 at 4:16 PM, User said:

This is a stupid lie. Even here, I agree and also criticize Trump for saying stupid things. 

No, it's not a lie, because the intent of your "criticism" is to downplay and shift the focus away from the malignant behavior rather than actually acknowledge it. 

Reducing deliberate and repeated lies on behalf of the Kremlin as "saying stupid things" is just another type of deception - minimization.  Since you can't deny the words were spoken, and you can't pretend they were true, all you can do is limply try to dismiss their relevance and importance.  

The fact is that your Orange Messiah intentionally lied and validated the years and the billions the Kremlin spent on Ukraine war propaganda, but you need to convince yourself that this is no big deal and unworthy of consideration.    🤡

On 12/12/2025 at 4:16 PM, User said:

Yet again, I’ve already pointed out this is expenditures, not a representation of current aid being delivered. 

COOL.  You point out a thing.  

Trump doesn't get points for not completely rescinding or impounding funds that Congress already allocated during the Biden administration.  He does get credit for substantially slowing and stymying the flow of that aid, however, and for making absolutely no effort towards new allocations or maintaining military aid for Ukraine beyond the next 6-8 months (after which present allocations will be likely be depleted).  

There's a reason why US aid commitments end after January 2025.  It's the same reason that Trump lies on behalf of the Kremlin. 

Thankfully the rest of the world, and even most Americans, see through Trump's shameful displays.  MAGA clowns and ridiculous sycophantic fools like you don't.  

Edited December 16, 2025 by Moonbox

[John Stone]

An armistice is the only thing that works for Ukraine - it's not defeat and they don't concede  any territory. The dwell period could  go on for  decades  of course (ala NK / SK)  but it would provide some stability to Europe. 

Unfortunately, Russia - specifically Putin,  wants geo-conquest. 

Whatever occurs, it is a very dangerous situation for the World. 

China and NK are paying close attention to the outcome and both have nuclear capability in spades 

The U.S. has a quasi defense pact with Taiwan with Congressional approval - Taiwan has U.S military on the island - to act as a deterrence to China. The question is, with China possessing State status and Taiwan, not ............ could it be argued by China that it is a domestic action (invasion). Of course - that is what they'd argue at the U.N. 

China  of course also wants control  of the South China Sea - like the U.S.  and the Gulf of America. The rewards with the SCS are far greater tho - strategic seaway and underwater energy. 

South Korea on the other hand has a clear cut defense pact with the U.S. The agreement commits the two countries to provide mutual aid if either faces external armed attack - SK is indeed a State. 

If the U.S. continues to disengage from World affairs or gives that impression - it could easily be war.  

The Canadians have troops in Latvia - laughable - they can't be supported but they are NATO - basically serving the same purpose as U.S. Troops in SK and Taiwan - NATO meatballs acting as  a  deterrent. 

Trump, for better or worse, wants a new Global social order - to accomplish that, Ukraine must fall, the U.S. needs to get out of NATO and deals need to be made with both China (NK is a proxy) and Russia. 

 

Edited December 16, 2025 by John Stone

[John Stone]

If Ukraine falls - history will blame  (2) individuals - Bill Clinton and Barack Obama. 

Trump  is correct when he says that he has been tasked with cleaning up their mess - the manner is up for discussion but the present situation is a direct result of those two's actions or inaction. 

That's the problem  with democracy - it's inconsistent - better to punt problems for the next guy. 

[User]

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

No, it's not a lie, because the intent

The intent? My intent doesn’t change the objective facts. See, this is your continued desperation to ignore objective facts and speculate on my intent.

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

Reducing deliberate and repeated lies on behalf of the Kremlin

See, you keep slipping this dumb and dishonest baseless assertion in… “on behalf of the Kremlin”

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

all you can do is limply try to dismiss their relevance and importance.  

This isn’t Uno Reverse. You are the one obsessed with crying about this being more than it is. The fact that you can’t back that up and you can’t answer simple questions to support your assertions is your issue. 
 

 

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

The fact is that your Orange Messiah intentionally lied and validated

Validated… how?

So, you believe it’s true then?  Someone saying something untrue doesn’t somehow “validate” the thing being true, and you are also leaving off the whole walking it back part…

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

He does get credit for substantially slowing and stymying the flow of that aid, however, and for making absolutely no effort towards new allocations or maintaining military aid for Ukraine beyond the next 6-8 months (after which present allocations will be likely be depleted).  

Where is your evidence he has “substantially” done this?

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

There's a reason why US aid commitments end after January 2025.  It's the same reason that Trump lies on behalf of the Kremlin. 

More of your speculation instead of factual evidence.

 

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

Thankfully the rest of the world, and even most Americans, see through Trump's shameful displays.  MAGA clowns and ridiculous sycophantic fools like you don't.  

The rest of the world stood around and did little to nothing to actually equip Ukraine Before Russia invaded to prevent the war from happening.

Trump did. Russia didn’t invade on Trumps watch. 

Your entire phony narrative falls apart as soon as you stop ignoring all the facts. 
 

[SpankyMcFarland]

Unfortunately, China has a strong legal claim to Taiwan but we simply can’t afford to give it up. It’s always been a thorn in the side of the CCP and was one of the first matters Zhou Enlai raised with Kissinger before Nixon went to China. The West must be prepared to do anything necessary to keep that island free as long as possible. Xi is no doubt watching Trump carefully and comparing notes with Putin to see if a grand bargain can be struck when they meet, giving it to him without a fight. Let’s hope the Taiwanese are building a massive herd of sea drones à la Ukraine. As events in the Black Sea have shown, they could wreak havoc on any Chinese fleet. 

[SpankyMcFarland]

On 12/16/2025 at 4:00 PM, John Stone said:

If Ukraine falls - history will blame  (2) individuals - Bill Clinton and Barack Obama. 

Trump  is correct when he says that he has been tasked with cleaning up their mess - the manner is up for discussion but the present situation is a direct result of those two's actions or inaction. 

That's the problem  with democracy - it's inconsistent - better to punt problems for the next guy. 

In the first instance, history will blame Putin’s Russia, a European country that failed to modernise and respect its neighbours. All the other empires that destroyed Europe in the last century are long gone except that one. 

[User]

3 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Unfortunately, China has a strong legal claim to Taiwan but we simply can’t afford to give it up.

What do you mean "legal" claim? This is not some court of law. It was a civil war that never officially ended, with one side retreating to Taiwan, where they have ruled ever since. 

3 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Xi is no doubt watching Trump carefully and comparing notes with Putin to see if a grand bargain can be struck when they meet, giving it to him without a fight.

A grand bargain can be struck between whom and under what circumstance can Taiwan be "given" to China without a fight without Taiwan choosing to do that?

3 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Let’s hope the Taiwanese are building a massive herd of sea drones à la Ukraine. As events in the Black Sea have shown, they could wreak havoc on any Chinese fleet. 

They have been cranking out hypersonic anti-ship missiles. 

 

[SpankyMcFarland]

3 hours ago, User said:

What do you mean "legal" claim? This is not some court of law. It was a civil war that never officially ended, with one side retreating to Taiwan, where they have ruled ever since. 

I mean China’s claim that the island is a renegade province. The US maintains an ambiguous position on Taiwan’s legal status. If it’s just a simple civil war within a country it’s a very lopsided one, more like a local rebellion at this stage. 

Realistically, the best we can hope for is that the One China Two Systems compromise endures for a while yet. 

Anyway, off topic. 
 

Edited December 18, 2025 by SpankyMcFarland

[John Stone]

12 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

In the first instance, history will blame Putin’s Russia, a European country that failed to modernise and respect its neighbours. All the other empires that destroyed Europe in the last century are long gone except that one. 

arguably, history will be kind to Russia ........ daresay they're going to write their own version. 

Clinton, Obama and the West in general  failed to develop the proper deterrence - ya think??

Granted hindsight is 20/20 ........ and a lot of the blame could be put on the victim (Ukraine) for their naive approach to global politics 

Deterrence is a latent  offence - peace  thru strength. 

Consider a Nation with a population of 40mil, 2nd largest in the World in terms of geography that dithers over reequipping it's military and has done so for decades. Deploys 2,000 (unsupported) troops to Latvia under the Aegis of NATO and loudly proclaims  that it is punching above its weight. Do Canadians even know where Latvia is located and its strategic importance - doubtful. 

The U.S. will  demand steep concessions (likely trade) to continue the protection it provides to Canada. 

 

 

[John Stone]

 

This is what deterrence looks like ...... 

The United States on Wednesday approved $11.1 billion US in arms sales to Taiwan, the largest ever weapons package for the island which is under increasing military pressure from China.

The Taiwan arms sale announcement is the second under U.S. President Donald Trump's current administration, and comes as Beijing ramps up its military and diplomatic pressure against Taiwan, whose government rejects Beijing's sovereignty claims.

The proposed arms sales cover eight items, including High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems (HIMARS), howitzers, Javelin anti-tank missiles, Altius loitering munition drones and parts for other equipment, Taiwan's Defence Ministry said in a statement.

Edited December 18, 2025 by John Stone