User Posted March 4 Report Posted March 4 10 minutes ago, Moonbox said: A peace deal with no security guarantees, with a Russian adversary who's demonstrated nothing they sign is worth the paper it's written on? What's that worth to Ukraine? Nothing. Who said there would be a peace deal with no security guarantees? 10 minutes ago, Moonbox said: The idea that American "mineral rights" somehow substitute for actually meaningful security guarantees is a funny magic trick that Republicans are trying to convince the world of. Who said they would? 10 minutes ago, Moonbox said: Did Trump not come out and say that Zelensky is a dictator and that Ukraine started the war? Did he not just halt aid to Ukraine, as we predicted? Trump has backed off that. Trump used that as leverage to get Zelensky to the table for peace... and guess who came back today? 11 minutes ago, Moonbox said: The idea that you're interested in a fact-based discussion is farcical considering the mental backflips you're doing to try justifying the above. These are your own bad arguments, not mine. I don't have to do any backflips. Quote
Moonbox Posted March 4 Report Posted March 4 19 minutes ago, User said: Who said they would? Trump, Vance, Marco Rubio among others. 26 minutes ago, User said: Trump has backed off that. Trump used that as leverage to get Zelensky to the table for peace... and guess who came back today? Publicly validating Putin's propaganda is leverage!? 🤣🤣🤣 Military aid being contingent on a deal is leverage. Openly providing justification for Putin's war efforts accomplishes nothing but emboldening and strengthening Russia. Trump "backing off" on that is just useless, deluded coping on your part - the sort of mental gymnastics you do to rationalize how little your convictions count for when they conflict with what's going on in the MAGA cult. Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he does for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
User Posted March 4 Report Posted March 4 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Moonbox said: Trump, Vance, Marco Rubio among others. That is not what was presented at all. 3 minutes ago, Moonbox said: Publicly validating Putin's propaganda is leverage!? No, he used the funding as leverage, I thought my comments followed yours well enough, apparently not. 3 minutes ago, Moonbox said: Trump "backing off" on that is just useless, deluded coping on your part No, just a fact. Edited March 4 by User Quote
Moonbox Posted March 4 Report Posted March 4 16 minutes ago, User said: That is not what was presented at all. "They also understand that this agreement that was supposed to be signed today was supposed to be an agreement that binds America economically to Ukraine, which, to me, as I’ve explained and I think the President alluded to today, is a security guarantee in its own way because we’re involved; it’s now us, it’s our interests." - Senator Marco Rubio https://www.state.gov/secretary-of-state-marco-rubio-with-kaitlan-collins-of-cnn/ WhOoPs? 19 minutes ago, User said: No, he used the funding as leverage, I thought my comments followed yours well enough, apparently not. Okay fair. So what about his Putin propaganda echoing? Where's your comment on that??? Is this more of MAGA's pick-and-choose what Trump meant and didn't, as it suits you? 🙃 Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he does for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
User Posted March 4 Report Posted March 4 7 minutes ago, Moonbox said: WhOoPs? Whoops what? You said this was supposed to "substitute for actually meaningful security guarantees" Pointing out the fact that the mineral agreement would also be a security guarantee in its own way is just that. 9 minutes ago, Moonbox said: Okay fair. So what about his Putin propaganda echoing? Where's your comment on that??? Is this more of MAGA's pick-and-choose what Trump meant and didn't, as it suits you? What about it? I think those comments were stupid and confined to a dumb truth social post Trump has since backed off of as well as others in the administration in later comments. Quote
Moonbox Posted March 4 Report Posted March 4 11 minutes ago, User said: Pointing out the fact that the mineral agreement would also be a security guarantee in its own way is just that. What sort of silliness are you playing at here? First you question who said it, then when you're shown, you go back and try to argue the exact point I was mocking in the first place? A mineral agreement is in no way, shape or form even remotely a kind of security guarantee for Ukraine. It's absurd to even suggest it is, and for a long list of reasons. 21 minutes ago, User said: I think those comments were stupid and confined to a dumb truth social post Trump has since backed off of as well as others in the administration in later comments. What a comfy fantasy world you live in. When the Orange Buffoon makes yet another deeply stupid and destructive comment that contrasts with your viewpoint on Ukraine, your brain glosses over and makes excuses for it. "He didn't mean it. He backed off...etc etc etc". It doesn't matter. He said it. He meant it. It's being played and repeated in Russia to Putin's delight. Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he does for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
User Posted March 4 Report Posted March 4 3 minutes ago, Moonbox said: What sort of silliness are you playing at here? First you question who said it, then when you're shown, you go back and try to argue the exact point I was mocking in the first place? No, you did not show me who said what you claimed at all. 4 minutes ago, Moonbox said: A mineral agreement is in no way, shape or form even remotely a kind of security guarantee for Ukraine. It's absurd to even suggest it is, and for a long list of reasons. This is a different argument now. Of course it is a form of guarantee, as it give the United States a vested interest in protecting their investments and economic partnerships as well as it being the first step on the path to a broader peace agreement. 6 minutes ago, Moonbox said: What a comfy fantasy world you live in. When the Orange Buffoon makes yet another deeply stupid and destructive comment that contrasts with your viewpoint on Ukraine, your brain glosses over and makes excuses for it. "He didn't mean it. He backed off...etc etc etc". Stating he backed off is simply a fact. 6 minutes ago, Moonbox said: It doesn't matter. He said it. He meant it. It's being played and repeated in Russia to Putin's delight. He has said many things, you ignore all the rest. Did you have a point here? Quote
Moonbox Posted March 4 Report Posted March 4 7 minutes ago, User said: No, you did not show me who said what you claimed at all. My claim is that Zelensky didn't sign because of a lack of security guarantees, and that Trump and his sycophants are comically out there trying to spin a mineral rights deal as a security guarantee. Your limp word games are yet another of your deep intellectual dishonesty - something you complain about ad nauseum on this forum. 40 minutes ago, User said: Stating he backed off is simply a fact. The air has oxygen in it is also a fact. Congratulations on using words. 41 minutes ago, User said: He has said many things, you ignore all the rest. "He has said many things." 🤣 Congratulations on using words again. Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he does for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
User Posted March 4 Report Posted March 4 3 minutes ago, Moonbox said: My claim is that Zelensky didn't sign because of a lack of security guarantees, and that Trump and his sycophants are comically out there trying to spin a mineral rights deal as a security guarantee. Your limp word games are yet another of your deep intellectual dishonesty - something you complain about ad nauseum on this forum. No, this is a revision of your original assertion. Here, let me quote it for you: "The idea that American "mineral rights" somehow substitute for actually meaningful security guarantees" The only one playing dishonest games here is you. I have already pointed this out to you before. The mineral rights deal is a type of security guarantee, no where did Trump or his administration claim, as you said, that it was a substitute for any other meaningful security guarantees. This was one part of the overall plan, that has also involved Trump and his administration talking about European partners positioning troops in Ukraine. 7 minutes ago, Moonbox said: The air has oxygen in it is also a fact. Congratulations on using words. You were the one who had a problem with this simple concept. 8 minutes ago, Moonbox said: Congratulations on using words again. Let me know when you have a point. Quote
-TSS- Posted March 5 Report Posted March 5 If Trump's popularity falls it is because there is going to be some economic downturn which makes people worse off in terms of standard of living. Foreign affairs have no effect on his popularity unless there is some absolute humiliation. Many Americans struggle to point the location of Ukraine on the map. The same goes for Gaza or even the Panama-canal. Therefore Trump can handle foreign affairs like an elephant in a china shop without having to worry about losing support. Quote
eyeball Posted March 5 Report Posted March 5 15 hours ago, User said: Do you want US troops deployed to Ukraine? The old refrain Yankee go home does come to mind. You guys want to be more isolationist and also annex your neighbors and then some. You clearly have some real issues you need to work on. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Moonbox Posted March 5 Report Posted March 5 17 hours ago, User said: The mineral rights deal is a type of security guarantee, no where did Trump or his administration claim, as you said, that it was a substitute for any other meaningful security guarantees. It's not any type of security guarantee, and the fact that Trump and his administration are proposing otherwise is farcical. Uselessly reaching with more of your limp word games doesn't change the above, nor the fact that (as usual) you don't actually have an argument to make about it! 🙃 18 hours ago, User said: Let me know when you have a point. That was the point. You weren't making one. "Trump has said many things?" Okay. We're talking about the retarded, outright lies he's been telling, and the only thing we can get back from you is "that was stupid but...(here's how I cope with the cognitive dissonance)". At any rate, it is pretty funny watching you scrambling for these goofy answers, realizing in your subconscious that everything Trump has done so far in his search for peace has helped Russia and hurt Ukraine's ability to defend itself. He's now: 1) Declared Ukraine started the war, and that Zelensky is a dictator, thus handing Putin a massive propaganda win. 2) He's halted military aid. 3) He's halted intelligence sharing just a start. What steps has he taken against Russia? 😆 Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he does for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
User Posted March 5 Report Posted March 5 11 minutes ago, Moonbox said: It's not any type of security guarantee, and the fact that Trump and his administration are proposing otherwise is farcical. Uselessly reaching with more of your limp word games doesn't change the above, nor the fact that (as usual) you don't actually have an argument to make about it! Again, this is a different argument, if it amounts to any type of security guarantee. I already explained exactly how it is one. You are just saying "nah huh!" is not an argument. 13 minutes ago, Moonbox said: That was the point. You weren't making one. "Trump has said many things?" Okay. We're talking about the retarded, outright lies he's been telling, and the only thing we can get back from you is "that was stupid but...(here's how I cope with the cognitive dissonance)". Yes, to the point, you focus on one posted comment to social media he has walked back on saying and ignore everything else. 14 minutes ago, Moonbox said: At any rate, it is pretty funny watching you scrambling for these goofy answers, realizing in your subconscious that everything Trump has done so far in his search for peace has helped Russia and hurt Ukraine's ability to defend itself. I don't have to scramble for anything. You make a bad assertion, I call you out for it, and look... you have run away from that. Trump is working towards a peace deal, that will help Ukraine. 15 minutes ago, Moonbox said: He's now: 1) Declared Ukraine started the war, and that Zelensky is a dictator, thus handing Putin a massive propaganda win. 2) He's halted military aid. 3) He's halted intelligence sharing just a start. What steps has he taken against Russia? 1-Yes, he made a dumb social media post he has backed away from. 2-Zelensky made a dumb move and posted a video to social media about how much longer this war was going to go on for and how much support he garnered in Europe and how he had funding from them and the US to last through 2025. So, Trump pulled the funding. Zelensky is an id1ot. He knows Trump is working towards a peace deal. Bragging about how much longer this can go for with American support right after that bad Oval Office meeting... he brought that on himself and Ukraine. Trump has signaled he is willing to resume now that Zelensky has responded again as being ready to work with Trump towards peace. 3- See above. Trump is not in this to help Ukraine continue fighting this war forever. Trump has called out Europe for continuing to fund Russia. Trump has been engaged in negotiations with Russia towards peace. At this moment, I don't see Putin telling Trump to go pound sand. So... why would Trump be doing anything other than continuing negotiations with them? Quote
Moonbox Posted March 5 Report Posted March 5 7 minutes ago, User said: Again, this is a different argument, if it amounts to any type of security guarantee. I already explained exactly how it is one. You are just saying "nah huh!" is not an argument. You didn't explain anything of the sort. European troops positioned in Ukraine would be a European security guarantee, and have nothing to do with US mineral rights in Ukraine. 18 minutes ago, User said: 1-Yes, he made a dumb social media post he has backed away from. It's telling that you frame it like that. You understand it was dumb/wrong, but you minimize it as if it doesn't matter. In reality, this is a huge propaganda win for Putin, one that will be played and replayed in Russia for as long as this war goes on. It wasn't just a dumb accident. 20 minutes ago, User said: At this moment, I don't see Putin telling Trump to go pound sand. So... why would Trump be doing anything other than continuing negotiations with them? Why would Putin tell Trump to pound sand? Everything Trump's done so far has helped him. Trump gift-wrapped an enormous moral and propaganda victory, legitimizing his actions on the world stage while at the same time yanking the support Ukraine needs to stand up to him. Putin couldn't have a better friend than that! 🤣👌 1 Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he does for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
User Posted March 5 Report Posted March 5 1 minute ago, Moonbox said: You didn't explain anything of the sort. European troops positioned in Ukraine would be a European security guarantee, and have nothing to do with US mineral rights in Ukraine. Yes, as I explained, the US mineral rights deal was not the only thing on the table. It was one step. You tried to claim it was a substitute for any other security guarantees. 4 minutes ago, Moonbox said: It's telling that you frame it like that. You understand it was dumb/wrong, but you minimize it as if it doesn't matter. In reality, this is a huge propaganda win for Putin, one that will be played and replayed in Russia for as long as this war goes on. It wasn't just a dumb accident. What is telling? Again, it is just a statement of fact. 5 minutes ago, Moonbox said: Why would Putin tell Trump to pound sand? Everything Trump's done so far has helped him. Trump gift-wrapped an enormous moral and propaganda victory, legitimizing his actions on the world stage while at the same time yanking the support Ukraine needs to stand up to him. Putin couldn't have a better friend than that! As I said, Putin is negotiating with Trump to bring about peace, so Trump is doing just that. The point is a peace deal, not to antagonize Putin pointlessly. I already explained why Trump yanked funding. Quote
BeaverFever Posted March 5 Report Posted March 5 (edited) If only USA had allied with Hitler instead of that warmongering Churchill who refused to surrender, WW2 would have ended years sooner and saved millions of lives. Or at least USA could have pressured to cut off aid to the allies if they don’t sign a ceasefire and give up half of Europe to the Nazis . What a warmonger those allies were. Edited March 5 by BeaverFever Quote
User Posted March 5 Report Posted March 5 1 hour ago, BeaverFever said: If only USA had allied with Hitler instead of that warmongering Churchill who refused to surrender, WW2 would have ended years sooner and saved millions of lives. Or at least USA could have pressured to cut off aid to the allies if they don’t sign a ceasefire and give up half of Europe to the Nazis . What a warmonger those allies were. Perhaps you should care more about how your country is still funding "Hitler", along with Europe: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/russia-oil-canada-sanctions-1.7432083 "Millions of dollars worth of Russian oil is coming into Canada thanks to a loophole in federal sanctions, providing much-needed income for the Kremlin to fuel its ongoing invasion of Ukraine." Quote
Aristides Posted March 6 Report Posted March 6 A man sits across from power. His fingers tighten around the arms of his chair. The bully makes no effort to mask his contempt. He sits rigidly, eyes burning with an unnatural intensity, fingers twitching on the armrest of his chair. When he speaks, it is not a conversation but an eruption — words spat like bullets, contempt laced through every syllable. The outburst does not abate. It is not a speech but an assault, designed not to persuade but to disorient, to cow, to humiliate. The bully leans forward, slamming his fists against the table. His face reddens, his voice sharpens. He moves from insults to threats, from history to grandiosity. The great country he leads will no longer be mistreated, he says. Those days are over. The people have had enough. His words are not arguments — they’re sentences, verdicts, pronouncements of doom. “You are nothing,” says the bully, not quite shouting. One of his lackeys smirks. “You think you are independent? You are a failure, a disgrace.” Behind him, the immense generals stand silent, unmoving. They don’t need to speak; their presence says everything. The visitor looks at them and understands what is being offered. This is not diplomacy. It’s a choice between submission and annihilation. The visitor is allowed no rebuttal. He does not speak until the torrent of invective slows, and even then, his words are weak, uncertain. He tries to protest, to insist that he and his country are not to blame, that he has done all he could to maintain peace. The bully’s response is bitter, scornful laughter, as if the very idea is absurd. He rises suddenly—pacing now, shaking his head, muttering to himself in a fevered rant. “You will sign, or we will act. You will agree, or you will cease to exist.” There is no need to say what that means. The visitor has seen the faces of the men behind him. He knows that even if he signs, this meeting is not a negotiation but an autopsy. He has been given no options, only demands. If he yields, his nation dies slowly. If he resists, it dies swiftly. There will be no help coming. The year was 1938. The visitor was the chancellor of Austria, Kurt Schuschnigg. The bully was Adolf Hitler. The place was the Berghof, Hitler’s alpine retreat. Quote
User Posted March 6 Report Posted March 6 @Aristides if you are going to copy paste, you need to provide a link and credit the source. Quote
Moonbox Posted March 6 Report Posted March 6 20 hours ago, User said: Yes, as I explained, the US mineral rights deal was not the only thing on the table. It was one step. You tried to claim it was a substitute for any other security guarantees. LOL nope! The context is that Ukraine didn't want to sign a deal with no security guarantees, and the Trumpian Circus tried to claim that getting mineral rights were somehow American security guarantees. Your typically useless and pedantic deflections over verbiage don't address the absurdity of those claims, or the fact that you can't actually offer an argument about it! 23 hours ago, User said: As I said, Putin is negotiating with Trump to bring about peace, so Trump is doing just that. The point is a peace deal, not to antagonize Putin pointlessly. Because if history has taught us anything, the best way to negotiate with bullying dictators is to strengthen their position and hobble their opponents, right!? Those fumes you're huffing? I want some too! 🤣👌 Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he does for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
User Posted March 6 Report Posted March 6 4 minutes ago, Moonbox said: LOL nope! The context is that Ukraine didn't want to sign a deal with no security guarantees, and the Trumpian Circus tried to claim that getting mineral rights were somehow American security guarantees. That was not your original claim. Once again, you continue evolving your argument, moving those goal posts. The partnership with Ukraine would in fact be a form of security, as we would be invested with them and economic partners. 6 minutes ago, Moonbox said: Your typically useless and pedantic deflections over verbiage don't address the absurdity of those claims, or the fact that you can't actually offer an argument about it! This is a you problem, like many of our discussions. You claim one thing, then do all these dishonest games rather than deal with what you originally claimed. 7 minutes ago, Moonbox said: Because if history has taught us anything, the best way to negotiate with bullying dictators is to strengthen their position and hobble their opponents, right!? Those fumes you're huffing? I want some too! This is your strawman, not mine. Quote
Moonbox Posted March 6 Report Posted March 6 21 minutes ago, User said: That was not your original claim. Once again, you continue evolving your argument, moving those goal posts. As usual, the only argument you can provide is insisting on a dumb straw-man. Your characterization of my claim is completely bogus, and as usual, even after clarification, you can't move on and actually argue the point. It's just deflect, deflect and obfuscate with you, every time. 21 minutes ago, User said: The partnership with Ukraine would in fact be a form of security, as we would be invested with them and economic partners. This isn't an argument. This is just repeating the retarded claim. Economic partnership provides no security guarantee, just like Chinese investment in Mariupol didn't prevent that city from getting flattened. 25 minutes ago, User said: This is your strawman, not mine. Donald Trump's "negotiating for peace" so far has amounted to nothing more than weakening Ukraine's position. He's done Putin nothing but favors, and that isn't strawman. 🤡 Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he does for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
User Posted March 6 Report Posted March 6 15 minutes ago, Moonbox said: As usual, the only argument you can provide is insisting on a dumb straw-man. Your characterization of my claim is completely bogus, and as usual, even after clarification, you can't move on and actually argue the point. It's just deflect, deflect and obfuscate with you, every time. I have quoted you repeatedly throughout this discussion as to what you originally said. It is not a characterization. What you originally claimed was simply wrong. Now you hide behind the term "clarification" when you continue to dishonestly ignore what you originally said and just act like you didn't say that or falsely accuse me of characterizing it incorrectly. Just dumb games. 16 minutes ago, Moonbox said: This isn't an argument. This is just repeating the retarded claim. Economic partnership provides no security guarantee, just like Chinese investment in Mariupol didn't prevent that city from getting flattened. Yes, it is. Pointing out that we would be economic partners and invested is an argument. Did the Chinese invest billions in Mariupol in a long term economic partnership to help Ukraine rebuild and acquire their own economic resources? 17 minutes ago, Moonbox said: Donald Trump's "negotiating for peace" so far has amounted to nothing more than weakening Ukraine's position. He's done Putin nothing but favors, and that isn't strawman. No, that is Zelensky's doing. As I have already explained previously. Quote
Moonbox Posted March 6 Report Posted March 6 2 hours ago, User said: Now you hide behind the term "clarification" when you continue to dishonestly ignore what you originally said and just act like you didn't say that or falsely accuse me of characterizing it incorrectly. No, it's just you throwing up your ubiquitous smoke-screens - your pedantic deflection and obfuscation because you can't actually debate the subject matter. Instead of arguing the actual point, you want to argue about my verbiage. It's pathetic, and just further highlights your lack of intellectual credibility. 2 hours ago, User said: Yes, it is. Pointing out that we would be economic partners and invested is an argument. A retarded one, yes. That's the point. Economic "partnerships" are not security guarantees in any way shape or form. Russia has offered the same to Trump, highlighting how the USA can get mineral access to Ukraine with or without future Ukrainian sovereignty. 2 hours ago, User said: No, that is Zelensky's doing. As I have already explained previously. Now that Trump has shown his true colors and is making life easy for Putin, you've come full circle and are now repeating Nationalist's reasoning. I don't think anyone here is surprised how quickly your convictions on Ukraine evaporated once your Orange Messiah started pissing all over them. 🤡🤡🤡 Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he does for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
User Posted March 6 Report Posted March 6 13 minutes ago, Moonbox said: No, it's just you throwing up your ubiquitous smoke-screens - your pedantic deflection and obfuscation because you can't actually debate the subject matter. Instead of arguing the actual point, you want to argue about my verbiage. It's pathetic, and just further highlights your lack of intellectual credibility. LOL, ah yes, me quoting exactly what you said repeatedly is a "ubiquitous smoke-screen!" YOU made the point, I did directly call you out on your assertion being baseless BS. Instead of owning up to that, you tried to defend it by citing something that had nothing to do with it and are now doing what you usually do, playing these dumb straw man games and changing your argument. 15 minutes ago, Moonbox said: A retarded one, yes. That's the point. Economic "partnerships" are not security guarantees in any way shape or form. Russia has offered the same to Trump, highlighting how the USA can get mineral access to Ukraine with or without future Ukrainian sovereignty. Yes, they are, if we have a vested interest in protecting them, it certainly is. Just like Taiwan, we have an economic reason to see that they stay independent and we have no formal relationship with them or formal military obligation to them... but everyone knows we are essentially backing them. 18 minutes ago, Moonbox said: Now that Trump has shown his true colors and is making life easy for Putin, you've come full circle and are now repeating Nationalist's reasoning. I don't think anyone here is surprised how quickly your convictions on Ukraine evaporated once your Orange Messiah started pissing all over them. I have not come full circle on anything. My positions have been and still are consistent and clear. You are far more interested in your fabrications to argue against though, because you got nothing else. Even now, you repeatedly avoid the actual point I am making here, that Trumps withdrawal of support was completely in response to Zelensky's public comments. Trump has also signalled yesterday, that after Zelensky has come back around, the support is back on the table. Quote
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