Vicious: Martin & Hargrove

[August1991]

This was deliberate.

In Ontario, Hargrove makes the accusation that Harper is an Albertan-first pseudo-separatist who doesn't understand Canada. Then, Hargrove says that even a BQ vote is good if its stops Harper. Then Hargrove retracts it all and says he was misunderstood.

Martin then steps in and says he does not question Harper's patriotism.

Swing voters who don't pay alot of attention to the exact details about who said what will recall a sense of unease about Harper and the Conservatives. They'll vote Liberal.

It reminds me of the old story about the stolen watch. Two acquaintances meet on the street and one says to the other, "Weren't you mixed up in some sort of gang of watch thieves?" And the other says, "Yes. My watch was stolen."

[shoop]

I think you are giving the Liberals too much credit.

I think they are sooooo disorganized and in such disarray that they are giving Buzz a prominent role and they really shouldn't be.

Desperate. Desperate. Desperate.

[August1991]

I think you are giving the Liberals too much credit.

I think they are sooooo disorganized and in such disarray that they are giving Buzz a prominent role and they really shouldn't be.

Desperate. Desperate. Desperate.

Desperate, absolutely.

But we are political junkies who read blogs and the news and know the players. Most people aren't like that and some are clueless about politics. (Intelligence has nothing to do with this; in fact, an intelligent person wouldn't waste their time on politics when the same effort devoted to another subject could be useful.)

Smart politicians seek votes from everyone, including people with a passing interest in elections.

I once compared this to the characters on the TV show Lost. If I were asked which character to vote off the island, a smear such as Hargrove's could possibly sway my vote since I don't know these characters at all.

[sage]

Don't you think any statement made by Buzz Hargrove of all people is wrapped firstly in ideology considering his occupation, and secondly in hypocrisy considering he's not supporting his natural party the NDP?

Anyone who knows who Hargrove is will immediately disregard the comment as ludicrous, much the same as anything else that comes out of his mouth. I guess not much different then Martin on that point.

[Rovik]

Don't you think any statement made by Buzz Hargrove of all people is wrapped firstly in ideology considering his occupation, and secondly in hypocrisy considering he's not supporting his natural party the NDP?

Anyone who knows who Hargrove is will immediately disregard the comment as ludicrous, much the same as anything else that comes out of his mouth. I guess not much different then Martin on that point.

I say that the NDP are glad that he is in Martin's corner not Layton's. I believe Layton said, when asked about Hargrove, was along the lines that Hargrove is out of touch with most Canadians.

[shoop]

I hear you, but there is no way the Liberals planned for Hargrove to make this statement *and* for Martin to refute it.

That is far too conspiracy theory for me and complex.

Remember Ockham's Razor. "Given two equally predictive outcomes, choose the simpler."

It is far likelier that the Buzz just shot off his mouth on this one...

But we are political junkies who read blogs and the news and know the players. Most people aren't like that and some are clueless about politics. (Intelligence has nothing to do with this; in fact, an intelligent person wouldn't waste their time on politics when the same effort devoted to another subject could be useful.)

Smart politicians seek votes from everyone, including people with a passing interest in elections.

ps. With the way this campaign has been run are you really calling Martin a smart politician?

[cybercoma]

Mark my words on this one fellas....You will see voter backlash on Buzz Hargrove for what he did. I can promise you the autoworkers will vote NDP out of spite.

[shoop]

As long as they aren't voting Liberal.

Mark my words on this one fellas....You will see voter backlash on Buzz Hargrove for what he did. I can promise you the autoworkers will vote NDP out of spite.

[tml12]

Mark my words on this one fellas....You will see voter backlash on Buzz Hargrove for what he did. I can promise you the autoworkers will vote NDP out of spite.

And well they should. I tend to agree with Shoop's assessment...the Liberals are so desperate they'll do anything...

[BubberMiley]

Personally, I agree with him. I don't see the difference between breaking up Canada into individual provinces as Harper is suggesting and the Bloq's idea of sovereignty-association. That's why the CPC is gaining ground in Quebec. They're running on a sovereignty-association platform.

[shoop]

thanks tml

They are desperate and grabbing at straws. Nothing they have done since New Year appears to be helping them.

Maybe Kinsella is right and all they are doing is trying to save the few seats they have left...

And well they should. I tend to agree with Shoop's assessment...the Liberals are so desperate they'll do anything...

[geoffrey]

Mark my words on this one fellas....You will see voter backlash on Buzz Hargrove for what he did. I can promise you the autoworkers will vote NDP out of spite.

Or not vote at all...

[betsy]

UPDATE

Boy, oh boy....Harper said what Hargrove said was shocking....to urge Quebecers to vote for separatism. That Martin, as a federalist, should distance himself from Hargrove.

Then guess what, Martin did "back-pedalled", according to M Duffy.

Guests were having another giggle over this latest fiasco. One said, you can be sure Hargrove won't be around...at least not until after the election. They really found it funny that Martin ended up doing damage control (again).....and, acknowledging Harper's patriotism as well!

I forgot who said this but someone did: It only shows that Martin puts the party's interest first before that of our country.

Oh Canada, who luvs ya baby?

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear August1991,

This was deliberate.

In Ontario, Hargrove makes the accusation that Harper is an Albertan-first pseudo-separatist who doesn't understand Canada. Then, Hargrove says that even a BQ vote is good if its stops Harper. Then Hargrove retracts it all and says he was misunderstood.

I am going to have to concur. Someone like a 'huge union' head will ostensibly draw their salary off of the backs of the union workers regardless of who is PM, and they stand a way better chance to out-'tenure' a couple, and possibly several, Prime ministers. What on earth could Hargrove have stood to gain by so blatantly attempting to influence the outcome?

http://start.shaw.ca/start/enCA/News/Natio...rc=n011835A.xml

Oh Canada, who luvs ya baby?

betsy, if only that lovable crooner Telly Savalas were alive to run....

[August1991]

I hear you, but there is no way the Liberals planned for Hargrove to make this statement *and* for Martin to refute it.

That is far too conspiracy theory for me and complex.

Remember Ockham's Razor. "Given two equally predictive outcomes, choose the simpler."

It is far likelier that the Buzz just shot off his mouth on this one...

But we are political junkies who read blogs and the news and know the players. Most people aren't like that and some are clueless about politics. (Intelligence has nothing to do with this; in fact, an intelligent person wouldn't waste their time on politics when the same effort devoted to another subject could be useful.)

Smart politicians seek votes from everyone, including people with a passing interest in elections.

ps. With the way this campaign has been run are you really calling Martin a smart politician?

Martin smart? He's PM. He's a smart politician.

By this little excapade, Martin and Hargrove may have turned potential utter defeat into maybe a squeaker.

Incidentally, Coyne is making roughly the same argument I made above.

As Thelonious noted, Hargrove can take a hit because he doesn't care. There are no Liberal votes in Alberta so that doesn't matter. All the offended Tory political junkies who post comments here or on Coyne's website were never going to vote Liberal anyway.

The purpose here was to stick the words "Albertan-separatist" to Harper. Mission accomplished. Non-political people don't notice the details. Several seats in Ontario, Quebec and the Maritimes may go Liberal now.

This required no conspiracy. Hargrove knew what to do without being told. And he knew that Martin would be a "statesman" and distance himself from Hargrove's comments.

Joe McCarthy used the same tactics in the 1950s.

Good politicians such as Paul Martin don't view politics the way posters to this forum view it. We don't have to go out and get votes from indifferent voters. Martin does.

----

As I have argued here many times, people don't vote the same way they buy a car. When you buy a car, it's worth spending alot of time researching and deciding what car to buy because the decision will have a direct effect on your life. Your solitary, single vote will change absolutely nothing in the results on Monday. Whether you go to vote or not, the result will be absolutely the same.

People aren't fools. They devote much more time deciding what car to buy than they would ever devote to deciding what candidate to vote for. (And yet, federal taxes will take more from their pocket this year than the car that they drive.)

[Guest eureka]

How true, August! Well, most of it anyway. I can't let you think that you could be totally accurate.

[Wilber]

"The purpose here was to stick the words "Albertan-separatist" to Harper. Mission accomplished. Non-political people don't notice the details. Several seats in Ontario, Quebec and the Maritimes may go Liberal now."

It may play well in Ontario but if they are that willing to use one part of the country against another to gain votes, he divides the country even more. If that really was the motive, it's disgusting.

[kimmy]

To me the most likely take-home message for voters was seeing Martin's buddy say Quebecers should vote for the BQ. To me, that's the single impression most likely to grab a casual observer.

But maybe, as an Albertan, I don't recognize the impact that calling someone an "Albertan" elsewhere in Canada would have. Is it really such a vicious thing to say about someone?

-k

[Hicksey]

Is it just me or does anyone else find it funny that whenever the Liberals think they have something to knock Harper down they end up making an apology for it?

[Boru]

Is it just me or does anyone else find it funny that whenever the Liberals think they have something to knock Harper down they end up making an apology for it?

Such as?

Besides, you just know Klein has an ace up his sleeve...waiting for the right moment to bring it out and send the Conservatives to ruin.

[sage]

News flash for everyone. Canadians already knew that Harper was from Alberta. Already knew that he proposed to give the provinces more taxing capacity. Already knew that there exists a small seperatist movement in Alberta.

The sole thing this was trying to do was to scare the GTA into not getting swept away in the blue tide. Of course it was planned.

The Lib's have already wrote off Quebec and now are consolidating their attacks in an area where they think they can hold off a Conservative majority government.

As for the strategy, absolutely tastless, classless, and a complete slap in the face to western Canada and Quebec.

Wasn't it only 2 years ago, Martin was bragging about being the person who would address western alienation?

[Hydraboss]

"\" News flash for everyone. Canadians already knew that Harper was from Alberta. Already knew that he proposed to give the provinces more taxing capacity. Already knew that there exists a small seperatist movement in Alberta. "/"

As an Albertan who works in the oilfield, I come in contact with tons of people on a day to day basis (because of the type of work I do). Everyone from entry level workers to company execs. Let me tell you, there is considerably more of a "separatist movement in Alberta" than anyone likes to admit. I don't subscribe to the theory personally, but there is MAJOR anger out here towards the Lib's, and that is translating into the whole "screw em, we've got the resources" talk. Maybe Kimmy can put her two cents in here (that's $0.019 pre-tax).

The general sentiment I'm getting out here is that if the Lib's were to get in, you would see the "Alberta Firewall" move ahead with great determination. I don't like it, but I can understand it.

I don't believe that Martin intended for Buzz-bomb to shoot off his mouth that way because he looked waaaayyy too shocked during his retraction, and he's not that good of an actor.

[fellowtraveller]

This was deliberate.

Unquestionably deliberate , and the proof arrived on my doorstep this morning. The front section of the newspaper has a large anti-Harper ad from the Canadian Auto Workers. It's filled with the usual hysterical nonsense, about what you'd expect.

No doubt the comments from Hargrove yesterday were intended as an opening salvo, an introduction to the end game. No doubt the massive ego of Hargrove forced him to stray from the script yet again. No doubt poor Martin is yanking what little hair remains on his aged head, mumbling 'Buzz, deliver the message and then shut up!'.

Buzz Hargrove is the new Sheila Copps. All mouth, no brain.

[fellowtraveller]

It just occurred to me that Buzz Hargrove may be a Conservative plant, a mole in the Liberal machine.

How else can this stuff be explained?

Surely some union members must be realizing that their NDP vote is wasted, their Liberal vote means endorsing the increasingly irrelevant and embarassing Hargrove. What does that leave them?

[Guest eureka]

Might there not be a possibility that Hargrove's message was the right one? He is simply encouraging strategic voting and never encouraged any vote for the Bloc.

For those who think these Conservatives are a danger to the future of the country, should they not think a little more than the silly indignation that is being expressed here?