As Kids, They Thought They Were Trans. They No Longer Do. (or why it's ok for parents to question)

[CdnFox]

1 minute ago, Black Dog said:

I legit don't know what to say someone who is too stupid to parse the difference between "Incidents involving imminent risk to children caused by neglect and/or physical or sexual abuse" and the fear that some form of abuse may take place at some possible point in the future

In your case "i'm so sorry i'm wrong, i regret being a total tard about it" would be appropriate.

If you call them and tell them that a child is at risk of abuse they will investigate. It's that simple. They do it every day. Call them and ask if you doubt. Right on the pages i posted it notes it doesn't even have to be physical abuse, emotional abuse or those at risk will be investigated too.

It's cut and dry. You were wrong, and your attempts to dodge that make you look desperate and pathetic.

So - if there genuinely IS a risk to the child you go that route. If it's just your hatred and bias about 'conservatives' then sorry, nobody's interested. 

Tell the parents what's going on with their kids, it's the safest thing to do.

 

[Black Dog]

12 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

In your case "i'm so sorry i'm wrong, i regret being a total tard about it" would be appropriate.

If you call them and tell them that a child is at risk of abuse they will investigate. It's that simple. They do it every day. Call them and ask if you doubt. Right on the pages i posted it notes it doesn't even have to be physical abuse, emotional abuse or those at risk will be investigated too.

It's cut and dry. You were wrong, and your attempts to dodge that make you look desperate and pathetic.

But that's not the scenario described. the scenario was a kid who feared their parents might possibly abuse them, if they learn their trans. This isn't "my dad is drunk and he's threatening me with a tire iron" or "my mom off her meds and acting erratically I'm scared of her." In other words: I do not believe the hypothetical threat of abuse discussed would be sufficient to warrant an investigation, nor would such an investigation be appropriate given the whole point is that the kid doesn't want their parents to know they're trans in the first place. 

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So - if there genuinely IS a risk to the child you go that route. If it's just your hatred and bias about 'conservatives' then sorry, nobody's interested. 

Tell the parents what's going on with their kids, it's the safest thing to do.

 

Ah yes the genuine risk that you don't even believe exists in such cases. Go f**k yourself with some rusty barbed wire you dink.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Black Dog said:

Again the teacher isn't making any "gender based decisions" by respecting their wish to not tell the parents.

Its the parents right to know what is going on in school.

1 hour ago, Black Dog said:

entrusting their lives and safety to teachers with the expectation that they'll be looked after.

Like a babysitter. I don't expect a babysitter to make parental decisions without my consent.

Certainly not ones that entirely can change a child's future.

They aren't a parent, no more than a teacher.

1 hour ago, Black Dog said:

Outing a child to potentially unsupportive parents is deeply unethical.

Its not the teachers job to make these decisions. Its the parents.

1 hour ago, Black Dog said:

So you understand that kids sometimes need protection from their parents

If you suspect abuse this should be flagged to the necessary people. Not taken on by a gym teacher.

1 hour ago, Black Dog said:

So you understand that kids sometimes need protection from their parents

In the event of abuse.

1 hour ago, Black Dog said:

yet you support a policy that could put kids at risk

Teachers going in further than their responsibilities, could do the same.

[Michael Hardner]

Speaking of changing a child's future, I received a message from a stranger the other day about a teacher that was in my family and how they changed not only her future but her child's future through guidance and example.

I don't know. Just seems like a human thing to do, to help people if they ask.

[CdnFox]

29 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

But that's not the scenario described.

It is precisely the scenario described.  As i said - "If there is GENUINE fear for the child's safety report it".

If there is no genuine concern then too bad.  As noted the school can play a role in informing the parents in a healthy way but that's it.

I mean kids are worried they'll get yelled at if they bring home bad grades, or if the teacher has disciplined them or something. IF they're genuinely worried about abuse then call the authorities and they will help, if they know a kid is worried and is going to go tell their parents tonight they will intervene.

If the home is violent - it's going to be violent regardless, deal with it as a violent home.

Meanwhile  you put the kids at risk of suicide by denying them a supportive home by not telling the parents.

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Ah yes the genuine risk that you don't even believe exists in such cases.

Yes - that. If it DOES exist deal with it. Why would you leave a kid in an abusive home?

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Go f**k yourself with some rusty barbed wire you dink.

Man you just can't go more than 10 minutes without having fantasies about people's dicks can you Hey if you don't want to be rational about it no problem, we'll just keep the law.

Edited February 12, 2024 by CdnFox

[CdnFox]

 

3 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Speaking of changing a child's future, I received a message from a stranger the other day about a teacher that was in my family and how they changed not only her future but her child's future through guidance and example.

I don't know. Just seems like a human thing to do, to help people if they ask.

 

So you'd approve for example of a teacher abducting a child if they asked?

I don't know.  Just seems like an inhuman thing to do to deny parents the right to know what's happening to their child.

[Black Dog]

38 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Its the parents right to know what is going on in school.

Yes yes you keep saying but you aren't dealing with the specificss at all.

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Like a babysitter. I don't expect a babysitter to make parental decisions without my consent.

But you are entrusting a babysitter with your kid's safety and well-being, you wouldn't want them to make any decision that would risk those. but you would force teachers to do exactly that.

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Certainly not ones that entirely can change a child's future.

I don't think using a different name or wearing different clothes qualifies. Certainly not to the same degree as revealing sensitive information about gender to a parent who is not supportive 

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Its not the teachers job to make these decisions. Its the parents.

i feel like I'm talking to an AI chatbot at this point.

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If you suspect abuse this should be flagged to the necessary people. Not taken on by a gym teacher.

This doesn't make sense because the gym teacher is the individual who would be doing the flagging. No one is asking the  math teacher to go to the parent's house and confront them.

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In the event of abuse.

It is wild me you think it's a bigger deal for teachers to not tell parents something their student asked them not to than it is for the same teacher to call the cops on the parents.

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Teachers going in further than their responsibilities, could do the same.

OK what specific risks are you talking about.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Black Dog said:

But you are entrusting a babysitter with your kid's safety and well-being, you wouldn't want them to make any decision that would risk those.

I also wouldn't want to be left in the dark about anything significant.

A child wanting to change genders qualifies as something significant. Is the child in genuine danger? Perceived danger, is not actual in my opinion. You may die in an aircraft, but is incredibly unlikely. Its just a way to suppress the parents concerns, which are highly justified.

If not, then their safety isn't at risk--the teacher in fact, is breaching in the confidence and trust put in them, by withholding something like this, in my opinion.

3 hours ago, Black Dog said:

who is not supportive

This shouldn't be the teacher's job to determine that a parent's parenting is sufficient to their liking. Is it abusive, or not? If not, leave the parenting to the parents. Laws are there for a reason.

3 hours ago, Black Dog said:

feel like I'm talking to an AI chatbot at this point.

We disagree, but I keep it to the points you're making. You can turn to insults, but I'll stick to the points.

3 hours ago, Black Dog said:

This doesn't make sense because the gym teacher is the individual who would be doing the flagging.

To who they do is what am eluding to. Makes perfect sense.

3 hours ago, Black Dog said:

It is wild me

It is wild to me you feeling a teacher has any rights that trump the parents to authority over a child's medical care, considering the parent has far more responsibility and authority towards that child.

[Michael Hardner]

4 hours ago, CdnFox said:

 

 

So you'd approve for example of a teacher abducting a child if they asked?

 

Sorry?  What does this have to do with what I posted? 🤔

Bizarre.

You should quote the post you're responding to.

[CdnFox]

38 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Sorry?  What does this have to do with what I posted? 🤔

Your claim was that if a child asks for help with something they should be given it period.  So if they say they want to run away or the like child abduction is fine? I mean - it's just human to help people if they ask.

The reality is that children can ask for lots of things that adults decide they shouldnt have or that should not be indulged.

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Bizarre.

No you're just being difficult,   

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You should quote the post you're responding to.

I ....  Did.... go back and look?

[Michael Hardner]

7 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Your claim was that if a child asks for help with something they should be given it period.  So if they say they want to run away or the like child abduction is fine? 

Obviously no. Why would you even have to ask that?

Why do you post like this?  🤔

[Guest]

14 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

I don't know. Just seems like a human thing to do, to help people if they ask.

Correct. Understanding boundaries is a good idea, too.

It would be like me going to my siblings house, and telling her husband how he should raise his kids.

Seeing a 12 year old smoke while babysitting, and not tell them. Keeping it as our secret, heck, buying them cigarettes.

Sure, I sometimes babysit their kids, but I have an understanding that am not their parent.

It is a violation of a parents rights to assume that you are, and to bogart the authority of that parent without reasonable proof that this said parent abused their child.

I told my mom I was a girl as a child, and my mom refuted it. A teacher seeing that as a lack of support  is talking well out of their lane, and in feeling they are helping me, would have potentially seriously harmed me.

Am clearly gender nonconforming, but even clearer, is am not trans.

There are thousands of kids in the UK that were misdiagnosed, or rather now are suing for the affirming care they received. With people petrified to push back, they didn't have a chance.

Jumping the gun, under guise of care and doing so over the authority of the parents is wrong, in my opinion.

I would take my kid out of any school that thought any differently about my rights.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

Why would you even have to ask that?

Its siding with your logic.

If a child feels they are trans, the teacher should affirm it. 

Even if against the parents wishes. It affirms, but is doing so without any knowledge of anything the child is going through. It literally is making a medical decision for that child, without parental consent.

Because "they were asked to".

Kept it secret "because they were asked to".

Am an employer. If I found out an employee of mine was on the run, and begged me not to tell the police, am sorry, but am not going to prison for you. I would turn you in.

It would be unethical for me to do anything other. Found out cash was stolen, and staff justified it due to the lack of a raise we all complained about, is still unethical. Illegal, even.

Your logic is similar to the current trans ideology. Because you feel something, its as good as gospel.

Reality, is biology and laws have a way of getting in the way of that.

Also, sometimes asking questions gets you to the bottom of things, vs following blindly.

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

Correct. Understanding boundaries is a good idea, too.

It would be like me going to my siblings house, and telling her husband how he should raise his kids.

...

It is a violation of a parents rights to assume that you are, and to bogart the authority of that parent without reasonable proof that this said parent abused their child.

...

There are thousands of kids in the UK that were misdiagnosed, or rather now are suing for the affirming care they received. With people petrified to push back, they didn't have a chance.

Jumping the gun, under guise of care and doing so over the authority of the parents is wrong, in my opinion.

I would take my kid out of any school that thought any differently about my rights.

The truth is, though, that there are examples that skew the other way.  And, more common perhaps, a spectrum of cases in between.  A spectrum where the student may need to figure things out for themselves.

One would hope that all involved are careful, which is why I turned the topic towards the liberal sphere on page one as their involvement may have changed, since this phenomenon became a culture battle.

 

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

Its siding with your logic.

It's not.  It's a construction, and a false analogy meant to extend squabbling that isn't relevant or interesting.

My 'logic' is that you help people in this life as best you can.

Made up scenarios about people asking me to kidnap them or fugitive employees don't apply.

[Black Dog]

13 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

I also wouldn't want to be left in the dark about anything significant.

A child wanting to change genders qualifies as something significant. Is the child in genuine danger? Perceived danger, is not actual in my opinion. You may die in an aircraft, but is incredibly unlikely. Its just a way to suppress the parents concerns, which are highly justified.

So you don't trust teachers to make judgements about basically anything but you expect judgments about the actual level of danger a kid faces at home? 

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If not, then their safety isn't at risk--the teacher in fact, is breaching in the confidence and trust put in them, by withholding something like this, in my opinion.

So if a kid goes to a teacher and says "I'm trans but my dad will beat the shit out of me if he finds out" you think the teacher should tell the parents anyway?

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This shouldn't be the teacher's job to determine that a parent's parenting is sufficient to their liking. Is it abusive, or not? If not, leave the parenting to the parents. Laws are there for a reason.

I don't think it's that black and white. You seem to think I'm talking about a kid coming from an abusive environment when I'm actually talking about an environment where abuse is a possibility only if the parents find out about the kid's gender identity.

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We disagree, but I keep it to the points you're making. You can turn to insults, but I'll stick to the points.

Not trying to be insulting but i don't feel you're actually addressing teh issues i'm raising but retreating to talking points.

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It is wild to me you feeling a teacher has any rights that trump the parents to authority over a child's medical care, considering the parent has far more responsibility and authority towards that child.

We're not talking about medical care, you're moving the goalposts.

Edited February 13, 2024 by Black Dog

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

My 'logic' is that you help people in this life as best you can.

Common sense needs to be applied.

Woke ideology is devoid of it.

If you have no clue what you're doing and saw someone fall off a ladder and land hard on their head and moved them, you're doing far worse for this person by not realizing you need to stabilize their neck to avoid further injuring it.

Better yet, call 911, not move it and check for vitals.

You're asking teachers to make medical decisions on the lives of children based on potential ideological thinking, vs medical expertise. Same thing, in my opinion. 

Without my parental consent, no less. 

"I felt the child was at risk" is a sloppy reasoning unless it can be proven in court that the child was at actual risk.

Because kids never make s*** up for attention, to get out of trouble or the like, right?

Literally, every popular girl in my high school, was bi and insanely open about it. 

I dated goth girls. Care to guess how many are still bi or goth?

If a teacher got my child to feel they could and should transition and regretted it, you best believe that school board would be sued for it. 

Thousands of lawsuits for the very same thing are ongoing.

Stay in your lane.

26 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

So you don't trust teachers to make judgements

Its not about trust. It isn't their decision to make without my consent or knowledge. 

27 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

So if a kid goes to a teacher and says "I'm trans but my dad will beat the shit out of me if he finds out" you think the teacher should tell the parents anyway?

I did mention reasonable grounds for abuse being present. This is grounds for escalating matters, but none for the teacher to make medical decisions for that child. 

30 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

where abuse is a possibility only if the parents find out about the kid's gender identity.

Have stats to back how frequent this is, vs fear mongering to suppress concerned parents voices? 

Sorry, when someone points to the risk of someone dying in refuting a concern, I call propaganda, unless presented with stats that show a patterned issue. 

Very hard to refute death in an argument, so very effective.

Should do this on my next traffic ticket.

33 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

We're not talking about medical care

In my opinion, someone who is trans is dealing with a mental health issue. We can agree to disagree.

[Black Dog]

47 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

You're asking teachers to make medical decisions on the lives of children based on potential ideological thinking, vs medical expertise. Same thing, in my opinion. 

Without my parental consent, no less. 

You keep talking about medical decisions. What medical decisions?

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"I felt the child was at risk" is a sloppy reasoning unless it can be proven in court that the child was at actual risk.

Because kids never make s*** up for attention, to get out of trouble or the like, right?

When it comes to kid's safety, I'd prefer they err on the side of caution if the student has expressed concerns.

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Literally, every popular girl in my high school, was bi and insanely open about it. 

I dated goth girls. Care to guess how many are still bi or goth?

But to take your analogy, you're saying kids shouldn't be allowed to experiment with being bi or goth.

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If a teacher got my child to feel they could and should transition and regretted it, you best believe that school board would be sued for it. 

Thousands of lawsuits for the very same thing are ongoing.

If the extent of the school's involvement was respecting the kid's choice of name and pronouns, then your lawsuit is doomed.

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I did mention reasonable grounds for abuse being present. This is grounds for escalating matters, but none for the teacher to make medical decisions for that child. 

What constitutes "reasonable" to you?

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Have stats to back how frequent this is, vs fear mongering to suppress concerned parents voices? 

Sorry, when someone points to the risk of someone dying in refuting a concern, I call propaganda, unless presented with stats that show a patterned issue. 

Very hard to refute death in an argument, so very effective.

Should do this on my next traffic ticket.

Seventy-three percent of transgender adolescents reported psychological abuse, 39% reported physical abuse, and 19% reported sexual abuse.

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In my opinion, someone who is trans is dealing with a mental health issue. We can agree to disagree.

Even if we accept that what "medical decisions" are the teachers making?

Edited February 13, 2024 by Black Dog

[CdnFox]

6 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Obviously no. Why would you even have to ask that?

 

As i say it was literally your contention.  I agree - it's an !diotc principle.  We don't do what kids want just because they as as you suggest.

But i note that when it suits you you're perfectly fine with that thihnking.  "I duuno... just seems right..."  But when it's pointed out how stupid it is then you're "What! Why would you even say that".

Your hypocrisy is staggering.  So can we abandon your original premise and agree that it is NOT a good thing to just do what kids ask?

 

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Why do you post like this?  🤔

It points out the hypocrisy of yourself and those like you on the left,  as well as nicely highlighting exactly why we DO NOT do what kids want just because they ask. Which proves the argument that the parents absolutely should have a say in this.

I'ts not a false comparison, it's not a construction.

I know - you're butthurt because you tried to use a trite argument to sound like others who disagreed with you weren't "Human". And now it's bit you in the ass.

Thanks for helping with the demonstration  

[CdnFox]

8 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

You keep talking about medical decisions. What medical decisions?

When it comes to kid's safety, I'd prefer they err on the side of caution if the student has expressed concerns.

But to take your analogy, you're saying kids shouldn't be allowed to experiment with being bi or goth.

If the extent of the school's involvement was respecting the kid's choice of name and pronouns, then your lawsuit is doomed.

What constitutes "reasonable" to you?

Seventy-three percent of transgender adolescents reported psychological abuse, 39% reported physical abuse, and 19% reported sexual abuse.

Even if we accept that what "medical decisions" are the teachers making?

What a load of bullcrap.  This is why it's getting impossible to take the left seriously and why people are just having politicians pass laws with no more discussion.

"whut medical?"   Right like you didn't know gender dysphoria was a medical condition.

You don't give a flying crap about kids' safety - you've already proven that nicely.  It's safer to deal with the issue with the parents than it is to teach kids to lie to them. So you don't prefer safety.

Being bi or goth is not a medical condition.  Gay people for example can grow up and lead healthy happy normal lives no problem. but kids with gender dysphoria are at an extremely elevated risk of suicide, depression, anxiety and a host of other problems and without help probably will not grow up to be happy or healthy, if they grow up at all and don't kill themselves.

Trans kids are at higher risk of abuse - but do you notice it does NOT say 'from the parents'?   Once you teach kids they have to lie to their parents - they become MORE vunerable.  Their peers can abuse them and they get no support from family because they're keeping secrets. Their teachers can abuse them coaches can abuse them  family friends can and al of that happens -  and they have to stay silent because they've been trained not to speak to their parents about sexuality or gender.

 

Bottom line if you gave a crap about kids your first thought would be 'they need the support of their parents and how do we make that happen',  NOT  teachers should train kids to lie and cover up the truth.

[Black Dog]

29 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

What a load of bullcrap.  This is why it's getting impossible to take the left seriously and why people are just having politicians pass laws with no more discussion.

"whut medical?"   Right like you didn't know gender dysphoria was a medical condition.

We're not necessarily talking about kids with a medical diagnoses of gender dysphoria.

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You don't give a flying crap about kids' safety - you've already proven that nicely.  It's safer to deal with the issue with the parents than it is to teach kids to lie to them. So you don't prefer safety.

The usual source being whatever crack pipe you've ben hitting today.

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Being bi or goth is not a medical condition.  Gay people for example can grow up and lead healthy happy normal lives no problem. but kids with gender dysphoria are at an extremely elevated risk of suicide, depression, anxiety and a host of other problems and without help probably will not grow up to be happy or healthy, if they grow up at all and don't kill themselves.

There's a difference between questioning or experimenting with gender and deep, persistent gender dysphoria.

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Trans kids are at higher risk of abuse - but do you notice it does NOT say 'from the parents'?  Once you teach kids they have to lie to their parents - they become MORE vunerable.  Their peers can abuse them and they get no support from family because they're keeping secrets. Their teachers can abuse them coaches can abuse them  family friends can and al of that happens -  and they have to stay silent because they've been trained not to speak to their parents about sexuality or gender.

So having trusted adults who won't betray a kid's confidence is "teaching them to keep secrets". Uh huh.

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Bottom line if you gave a crap about kids your first thought would be 'they need the support of their parents and how do we make that happen',  NOT  teachers should train kids to lie and cover up the truth.

The fact you think this is the issue shows you are completely disconnected from reality. No hope.

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

Common sense needs to be applied.

Woke ideology is devoid of it.

...

Stay in your lane

Woke ideology? 🤣

This nonsense is on par with references to MSM conspiracies, vaccine-Nazis and the like. There's just no way anyone can be expected to think clearly when this is rattling around their noggins.

Stay in your lane? No, squeezing people who insist on maintaining this nonsense onto the exit ramp is the only appropriate thing to do.

[CdnFox]

52 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

We're not necessarily talking about kids with a medical diagnoses of gender dysphoria.

Transgender tendencies are a very very strong indicator of it.  If your kid can't put weight on a leg, there's swelling and discoloration, and a lot of pain - we're not NECESSARILY talking about a broken leg but only the dumbest of the dumb would suggest that you shouldn't move forward and find out and that means talking to the parents and taking the next step.

Why would you even need to be told that.

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The usual source being whatever crack pipe you've ben hitting today.

Already provided you info on that but hey - i notice you didn't give any sources to prove your contention that it's safer to lie to the parents, so how about you pony that up.

 

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There's a difference between questioning or experimenting with gender and deep, persistent gender dysphoria.

Are you basing that on your years of medical expertise treating children with gender dysphoria?

If not why not leave that up to a doctor, and that means letting the parents know so they can take the approprate next steps.

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So having trusted adults who won't betray a kid's confidence is "teaching them to keep secrets". Uh huh.

Well you just described how most pedophiles behave.  Teachers are not there to be the kid's 'best friend' or teach them to keep secrets.  Hell we posted that story here of that teacher who told their whole class to be sure to remember to lie over summer break if they saw the kids' parents.

It is not a matter of 'trusted confidence' to keep medical information from parents.

 

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The fact you think this is the issue shows you are completely disconnected from reality. No hope.

The fact you attempt to dismiss fact and reason that way shows you know you're in the wrong.  You're like a chihuahua barking on the other side of a fence as the big dogs walk by,

Edited February 13, 2024 by CdnFox

[CdnFox]

43 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Woke ideology? 🤣

This nonsense is on par with references to MSM conspiracies, vaccine-Nazis and the like. There's just no way anyone can be expected to think clearly when this is rattling around their noggins.

 

So you have no rebuttal and can't refute his points so you'll try to pretend that there is no such thing as 'woke' when we both know differently.

Well that's the left for you - if facts don't help then there's always denial.

[eyeball]

2 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

So you have no rebuttal and can't refute his points so you'll try to pretend that there is no such thing as 'woke' when we both know differently.

Well that's the left for you - if facts don't help then there's always denial.

There's no denying you dingbats think everything is subject to a big woke conspiracy involving Nazis and the MSM.

It's just too bad we don't have a vaccine for that.