‘Trump takes personal things personally:’ Liberal strategy to compare Poilievre with Trump ‘desperate,’ and a ‘delicate dance’ that could backfire, say political players

Michael Hardner · January 31, 2024

13 hours ago, Moonbox said:

The solution to wasting money frivolously is to stop doing it. It doesn't have to be rainbows. He just has to stop punching holes in the hull of our ship. It will most assuredly not be sunshine and rainbows for all of the public sector workers that we'll need to dump, but it still needs to happen to not sink the boat.

How much is this going to help us though? I feel like the changes that need to happen are structural, and I'm not convinced that anyone has put forward a vision that's going to help us much. As eyeball says though, a certain segment of people will be quiet for a little while.

CdnFox · January 31, 2024

5 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

How much is this going to help us though? I feel like the changes that need to happen are structural, and I'm not convinced that anyone has put forward a vision that's going to help us much. As eyeball says though, a certain segment of people will be quiet for a little while.

Well if you've ever talked to PP or watched him for any time you'll quickly realize the man doesn't go to the washroom without a calculated plan. His leadership race was extremely thought out, his climb to popularity now is no accident, its a combination of very successfully using social media in an innovative way and having a structured campaign. etc etc. The man is all about the plan.

He would be a complete dolt to talk about the plan now. Nobody who wants to get elected would do that. I doubt we'll hear much in the way of details till the day the race starts. I suspect as we get closer we'll start to hear more flushing out of the goals, but not the plan.

But he's clear about what his priorities are and what he intends to achieve.

The guy has 20 plus years of experience in the house, in cabinet, in opposition, he knows the politics of canada backwards and forwards and he's a meticulous planner. If he can't pull it off there just isn't anyone who can.

Moonbox · January 31, 2024

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

How much is this going to help us though? I feel like the changes that need to happen are structural, and I'm not convinced that anyone has put forward a vision that's going to help us much.

With all due respect, I think this is poor reasoning.

The erosion of our public finances is an issue of poor stewardship and incompetent management. This is becoming a crisis that's already imposing an actual structural burden on Canadians for decades to come. As for vision, or what's going to help us, the first step is to remove the decision makers who are doubling down on policy that's guaranteeing the problem gets worse.

Michael Hardner · January 31, 2024

23 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

1. With all due respect, I think this is poor reasoning. The erosion of our public finances is an issue of poor stewardship and incompetent management. This is becoming a crisis that's already imposing an actual structural burden on Canadians for decades to come. As for vision, or what's going to help us, the first step is to remove the decision makers who are doubling down on policy that's guaranteeing the problem gets worse.

1. You're speaking past me. Yes, spending produces a structural burden but the issues are, to me, deeper than can be solved by the usual cutting of budgets here and there. It's about providing value for the dollar.
Removing the decision makers is fine, but I am only questioning whether the new crew will have any hope of doing better. I'm not defending the current crew - in fact, they have proven their lack of vision in the face of the problem I have outlined.

Moonbox · January 31, 2024

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. You're speaking past me. Yes, spending produces a structural burden but the issues are, to me, deeper than can be solved by the usual cutting of budgets here and there.

I'm not speaking past you. I just think your reasoning appears vague and aimless. Our ballooning public deficits aren't caused by mysterious or esoteric forces. They're a function of unprecedented spending increases that have not generated even remotely commensurate increases in revenue.

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

It's about providing value for the dollar.

Yes, and we're definitely not getting it.

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

Removing the decision makers is fine, but I am only questioning whether the new crew will have any hope of doing better. I'm not defending the current crew - in fact, they have proven their lack of vision in the face of the problem I have outlined.

The bar is set so low for "doing better" that I think your pessimism in that regard is unwarranted. If we're looking at value for the dollar, the worst course of action is borrow and throw more money at the things that haven't been providing it.

Edited January 31, 2024 by Moonbox

Michael Hardner · January 31, 2024

2 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

1. I'm not speaking past you. I just think your reasoning appears vague and aimless.

2. Our ballooning public deficits aren't caused by mysterious or esoteric forces. They're a function of unprecedented spending increases that have not generated even remotely commensurate increases in revenue.

3. Yes, and we're definitely not getting it.

The bar is set so low for "doing better" that I think your pessimism in that regard is unwarranted. If we're looking at value for the dollar, the worst course of action is borrow and throw more money at the things that haven't been providing it.

1. Well, I am saying that we have big problems apart from budget. I don't see what reasoning is in that. It's more of an observation.
2. I believe in being fiscally prudent but you're also using pretty extreme language, which I'm not sure reflects Canada's status relative to other G7 countries in this regard. But it's beside the point of whether or not our problems are structural or not, unless we are figuratively burning the furniture to pay the heating bills. I don't want to get into a side-fight as to the nature of our deficits but I suppose the argument is indeed whether our deficit problem is the worst problem we have, or not.
3. I tend to agree.
4. Well, exactly. You actually disagree that we have structural problems. That things like demographics, productivity, education and even our democratic systems don't need top-to-bottom redesign.

That's why I was confused by your use of the term "reasoning"... it's not reasoning, or figuring, it's more like intuition in my case I would argue.

Moonbox · January 31, 2024

20 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Well, I am saying that we have big problems apart from budget. I don't see what reasoning is in that. It's more of an observation.

How many of these big problems would you say aren't directly tied back to or constrained by the budget?

20 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

2. I believe in being fiscally prudent but you're also using pretty extreme language, which I'm not sure reflects Canada's status relative to other G7 countries in this regard.

The sad part is that is not hyperbole, or exaggerated. Trudeau has doubled our federal debt in 8 years, expanded program spending by an average of 7% per year over that span, and less than half of that can be attributed to COVID. As for our relative status vs the G7, it's grossly misrepresented by the net-debt calculations that the Trudeau Liberals keep waving around. TLDR on that is that it inflates Canada's net balance by the $700B in assets held within CPP and QPP, while not accounting for the associated pension liabilities. It's a peculiarity in Canada's pension system relative to the G7, but a useful obfuscation for the Liberals.

20 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

4. Well, exactly. You actually disagree that we have structural problems. That things like demographics, productivity, education and even our democratic systems don't need top-to-bottom redesign.

No, I do not disagree that we have structural problems. One thing is for certain, however:

Massive deficits and rapidly growing federal indebtedness make present and future structural problems harder to solve.

herbie · January 31, 2024

23 hours ago, eyeball said:

Probably not but I see little reason to believe he'll be much better especially on the economy

Could it be based on history? As in how every time a Liberal govt was tossed out for a Tory one, they did no better, or sometimes worse? Hence the saying "Tory times is tough times". 69c dollars, 18% interest, inflation, slowly ended with a GST, tax hikes, cuts to services we've never recovered from. Years of nothing but bleating about 'crime' while ignoring the start of the housing and homeless crises.
At least we got started on Day Care, Dental and Pharmacare after only flapping gums for 40 years.

eyeball · January 31, 2024

14 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Massive deficits and rapidly growing federal indebtedness make present and future structural problems harder to solve.

Doesn't the fact the entire planet is in the same boat mitigate this at all?

I can see why the lenders would be adverse to some kind of big reset but if it's better to just let everything collapse then I guess it is what it is.

I'm reminded of the 1st Nations practice of the Potlatch where the wealthy and powerful gave their wealth and possessions away as a demonstration of their confidence they would soon acquire more. Maybe our 1% could be convinced to settle everyone's accounts in the same spirit - as a display of their courage and conviction in capitalism.

If they'd rather we have a series of world wars to get it out of of our system, oh well, at least we know what this playbook looks like.

Got popcorn?

Michael Hardner · January 31, 2024

45 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

1. How many of these big problems would you say aren't directly tied back to or constrained by the budget?

2. As for our relative status vs the G7, it's grossly misrepresented by the net-debt calculations that the Trudeau Liberals keep waving around.

3. It's a peculiarity in Canada's pension system relative to the G7, but a useful obfuscation for the Liberals.

4. Massive deficits and rapidly growing federal indebtedness make present and future structural problems harder to solve.

1. It's kind of a catfish question because everything goes to the budget.
2. Ok.... I got the numbers from 3rd party sources not the government.
3. Ok... good to know.
4. Of course that's true, but it's also an age-old excuse for doing nothing. I think we can walk, chew gum and pay for the gum.

eyeball · January 31, 2024

10 minutes ago, herbie said:

At least we got started on Day Care, Dental and Pharmacare after only flapping gums for 40 years.

And now the NDP are securing improvements to the way we encourage more voters to participate in our elections. 👍

If it wasn't for the NDP and the SCC we'd have next to nothing at all to show for the last 10 years.

herbie · January 31, 2024

And I'll push my Blue Democrat policy of offering a $100 tax credit for voting too.

OMG all those people on the streets voting just to buy more wine or another fix, outnumbering the votes of all the billionaires !

Moonbox · January 31, 2024

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. It's kind of a catfish question because everything goes to the budget.

Of course it was, but that was also the point. Badly mishandling the budget makes everything harder.

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

. Ok.... I got the numbers from 3rd party sources not the government.

Okay, but what numbers are those, and what do they really tell us? If it's net-debt to GDP, that comparison is extremely misleading.

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

Of course that's true, but it's also an age-old excuse for doing nothing. I think we can walk, chew gum and pay for the gum.

Who do you imagine is saying we do nothing?

Michael Hardner · January 31, 2024

12 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

1. Badly mishandling the budget makes everything harder.

2. Okay, but what numbers are those, and what do they really tell us? If it's net-debt to GDP, that comparison is extremely misleading.

3. Who do you imagine is saying we do nothing?

1. Let me ask you... if we have a deficit, do all other issues go to the back burner?

2. I was just looking at deficit per capita. We seem to be lower than the US and UK. But I don't want this to turn into you saying I don't care about the budget. I want a government with VISION is the point.

3. Every government since... the Trudeau/Mulroney one two punch...

I am Groot · January 31, 2024

22 hours ago, CdnFox said:

I've posted the data a number of times but the short version is the stock market is artificially inflated due to spending, and many experts note an imbalance with many companies over valuated (and some unexplained under valuated), and that's a bit of a pyramid - when the spending stops that can come crashing down. Much of that activity has been driven by biden's spending.

And as someone heavily invested in the stock market for some years I can tell you that's not any different than it was under Trump.

22 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Biden is also increasing taxes by 4.7 TRILLION dollars, which people are going to feel pretty hard.

Good. They need to increase taxes so they can stop borrowing so much.

22 hours ago, CdnFox said:

There's a bunch of other data along those lines. Not to mention the interest on biden's borrowing is going to start coming due soon and that is going to be a drag on the economy.

You do recall that Trump borrowed a lot of money, too, right? In fact, his tax cuts added massive amounts to the deficit.

22 hours ago, CdnFox said:

You can make the numbers look good for a while if you know what you're doing but the fundamentals are not good. He's trying to puff things up for an election year.

And what politician doesn't do that?

I am Groot · February 1, 2024

2 hours ago, herbie said:

Could it be based on history? As in how every time a Liberal govt was tossed out for a Tory one, they did no better, or sometimes worse?

No, they did not. Mulroney took over from Trudeau's father and inherited a massive deficit in the midst of double-digit inflation and double-digit unemployment. Not exactly the same to slash government spending. Which meant borrowing tens of billions a year at a time of very high interest rates. Doesn't take long for that to get your debt up. They did, however, cut spending year by year, and implemented the GST against ferocious opposition from the Liberals and NDP. People forget that Chretien couldn't improve things either for the first four years he was in office. And he too ran big deficits.

Harper inherited a budget in surplus and kept it there until the rebellion of the three opposition parties against his minority government in the face of a financial recession. He too borrowed big to satisfy them, but then cut that deficit every year thereafter to reach balance.

Trudeau, like his father, thinks any concern about debt or money is beneath him. In good times, he ran up ever higher deficits which exploded when Covid hit. We borrowed more and spent more during covid than any other western nation. Much of it wastefully, and continue to borrow to have big deficits years afterward.

Which means yes, the conservative is going to have to come in and start cutting. And if that means the welfare types, including welfare artists and welfare media and welfare political and legal activists and welfare cultural organizations and welfare corporations have to do without so much government money so be it.

2 hours ago, eyeball said:

And now the NDP are securing improvements to the way we encourage more voters to participate in our elections. 👍

If it wasn't for the NDP and the SCC we'd have next to nothing at all to show for the last 10 years.

Instead, we have a trillion dollars in debt for young people to pay off, weighing down on their backs for the rest of their lives.

eyeball · February 1, 2024

3 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Instead, we have a trillion dollars in debt for young people to pay off, weighing down on their backs for the rest of their lives.

Like every other country around the planet.

And that's on top of having to pick up our tab for climate change inaction.

A big reset is starting to look better, if not inevitable all the time. But perhaps the olde fashioned way of a big world war is the better option. Convince me.

I am Groot · February 1, 2024

7 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Like every other country around the planet.

You get that every other country doesn't have the same level of debt as we do, right?

7 minutes ago, eyeball said:

And that's on top of having to pick up our tab for climate change inaction.

I'm not sure if this is a non-sequitor or not because I have no idea what you're talking about. Are you referring to him throwing billions of dollars into the toilet so he can preen and strut and pretend he's a great environmentalist while actually accomplishing absolutely nothing?

Because he didn't 'have' to do that.

eyeball · February 1, 2024

58 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

You get that every other country doesn't have the same level of debt as we do, right?

So what, not every country has levels of wealth as high as our's.

58 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

I'm not sure if this is a non-sequitor or not because I have no idea what you're talking about. Are you referring to him throwing billions of dollars into the toilet so he can preen and strut and pretend he's a great environmentalist while actually accomplishing absolutely nothing.

No I'm referring to CO2 emissions still increasing along with the wealth gap throughout his entire term, speaking of billions.

Surely you didn't think I imagined Trudeau is a great environmentalist did you? LMAO!

It seems he's as skilled as any at making the 1% happier though so there's something to cheer about don't you think?

GroundskeeperWillie · February 1, 2024

On 1/29/2024 at 8:29 PM, CdnFox said:

He's playing with some pretty serious political fire. If trump gets in JT will have to deal with him for a full year before the election and there's a very good chance trump will decide to even up the score if he sees JT badmouthing him in the meantime.

I have a different take on this. I think any evening of the score will be purely a show put on by Trump. And Trudeau badmouthing Trump is also a show. World leaders are all buddies with one another behind closed doors. Any kind of purported animosity from one politician to another is just to give the public an illusion of politics being real.

CdnFox · February 1, 2024

18 minutes ago, GroundskeeperWillie said:

I have a different take on this. I think any evening of the score will be purely a show put on by Trump. And Trudeau badmouthing Trump is also a show. World leaders are all buddies with one another behind closed doors. Any kind of purported animosity from one politician to another is just to give the public an illusion of politics being real.

That is often true - but not with trump. When that guy gets mad at someone - he means it

herbie · February 1, 2024

1 hour ago, GroundskeeperWillie said:

I think any evening of the score will be purely a show put on by Trump.

Evening up the imaginary score is the first thing the conniving malicious Orange Ass will do.

GroundskeeperWillie · February 1, 2024

1 hour ago, herbie said:

Evening up the imaginary score is the first thing the conniving malicious Orange Ass will do.

I didn't know that TDS also afflicted Canadians.

CdnFox · February 1, 2024

36 minutes ago, GroundskeeperWillie said:

I didn't know that TDS also afflicted Canadians.

Are you kidding? Trudeau is banking on it

Thats the point of this whole thread - justin is desperately trying to get trump on the ballot in canada because many people don't like him here. But - trying to claim that PP is trump or that justin is better to handle trump is probably not going to work much. A little maybe.

GroundskeeperWillie · February 1, 2024

Just now, CdnFox said:

Are you kidding? Trudeau is banking on it

Thats the point of this whole thread - justin is desperately trying to get trump on the ballot in canada because many people don't like him here. [/quote]

Not sure if you are joking or not, but how can Trump be on the ballot? He is not Canadian.

Just now, CdnFox said:

But - trying to claim that PP is trump or that justin is better to handle trump is probably not going to work much. A little maybe.

I honestly don't think Trudeau comparing PP to Trump is going to do anything to revive himself or to hurt PP in any meaningful way. People who hate him will still vote Conservatives. The only difference is that now they will be laughing at his permanent butt-hurt by Trump.