Trudeau and Biden adamant about a two-state solution for Israel

[BeaverFever]

49 minutes ago, blackbird said:

You are obviously a die-hard anti-Semite.  Anything you post is meaningless.

Who cares what the anti-Semitic U.N. or any anti-Semitic country says?  It is Israel's business and it is their territory.  What they believe is necessary for their security is correct.  We all know the surrounding countries are opposed to their existence.  So whose business is it anyway to tell Israel what to do with their territory? 

 The U.N. secretary general just made an announcement promoting carving up Israel.  Just another pat on the back of terrorists and further promoting war in the middle east.

Sorry aren’t tou conservatives the ones eho supposedly get upset whenever someone screams “racism” simply because they couldn’t have their way?  I’m not just an anti -semite but “a die hard anti-semite” just because I believe that international law, not the bible applies to territorial claims?  You’re a joke. 

[CdnFox]

1 minute ago, BeaverFever said:

Sorry aren’t tou conservatives the ones eho supposedly get upset whenever someone screams “racism” simply because they couldn’t have their way?

And as a left winger aren't you the ones who approve of that?  Feels like it's a little late to be complaining now  

[BeaverFever]

14 minutes ago, blackbird said:

You don't appear to know anything about history.  Western society was ruled by the Catholic church for the past 1,700 years and while they were wrong about many things and the power behind the anti-Semitism,  many laws grew out of Judeo-Christian culture and beliefs.  Those beliefs originated from the the Bible such as the ten commandments.  So-called International Law is a relatively recent thing from the 20th century after WW2.  Nations are still sovereign and make the final decision as to what they need to do to protect their security and existence.  No country has to bow to some international group if it threatens their very existence.

It is you who know nothing. Religious beliefs and ignorance prevailed until the dawn of the Age of Reason in the 17th-18th century depending on on how you want to define it. 

International law is what applies, not religious scriptures, period. Nobody in any international court is looking up bible passages for answers. 

No country has the legal right to invade and annex any other country’s territory matter what you think your fictional magical book says  amd the Ocuppied Territories have never been part of the modern State of Israel 

[BeaverFever]

18 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

uhhhh - so you've never heard of crimea huh? LOL - that was 2014 kiddo.     Or the land the russians hold now in ukraine which is already looking like russia will keep at least a good hunk of.

LMAO EXACTLY!

Putin’s annexation of Crimea amd Donbas is BLATANTLY ILLEGAL AND A VIOLATION OF INTERNATIONAL LAW. There’s a war being fought over it amd Russia is under massive international sanctions, you might have heard.  The Israeli occupation of West Bank and Gaza is exactly the same kind of crime. Now good luck convincing Israelis and your fellow conservatives of that but get ready to have them scream at you because your argument isn’t helping them it’s the opposite. 
 

18 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Well not really. The historical use is to use it in conjunction with a country -  "occupied france" or "Occupied poland" or for the allies "occupied germany", even today "occupied ukraine".  You don't call it 'occupied territory" .  so that's NOT how english works

Sorry that’s made-up nonsense you’re spouting. “Occupied” is a simply an adjective you can pair with any noun: an occupied seat, an occupied bathroom and so on. When a military force occupies something that thing is occupied.  When Israel was created those territories were not part of Israel they were officially designated as Palestinian (“Arab”)  they were not simply uninhabited and uncharted voids on a map. 
 

 

[CdnFox]

2 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

LMAO EXACTLY!

Putin’s annexation of Crimea amd Donbas is BLATANTLY ILLEGAL AND A VIOLATION OF INTERNATIONAL LAW.

Uhhhh.... and it's internationally recognized as russian territory now. It's russian, the us and all allies have recognized it as russian airspace and land since it was taken over....   You've proved my point. It was illegal - they did it, and because they could they did. And now they own it.  Despite it being done illegally. My point is well proven.

Quote

There’s a war being fought over it

No, there isn't and seriously - you don't need me to tell you why that was a childish thing to say. They are not fighting a war over crimea - they are fighting the invasion and annexation of Ukraine. And virtually all the experts at this time expect russia to walk away from this conflict owning the donbas.  Russia will again have annexed territory by military force.

And it's not even the only example.  I'm sorry but that's the way it is, even today, even with international law, sucks to be you.

Quote

Sorry that’s made-up nonsense you’re spouting.

It's simple fact.  As i said - the first people to put those words together epecially in relation to israel was in the united nations. And even then it was just to refer to the lands seized in teh 6 day war, but palestinians and their supporters think it sounds cool so it persists.

Why has no one referred to crimea as the 'occupied territories?' hmmmmmmmm

If israel wants to and if they have the muscle to do so they can take those lands and make them part of israel, and while the international community might kick and scream the fact  is they'll accept it and life will go on. 

So palestine had better make sure Israel has other options.

[blackbird]

46 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

No country has the legal right to invade and annex any other country’s territory matter what you think your fictional magical book says  amd the Ocuppied Territories have never been part of the modern State of Israel 

Israel existed there several thousand year ago.  God gave them the land in perpetuity whether you believe it or not.

Our society is built on Judeo-Christian principles whether you acknowledge it or not.  Even respect for human rights of individuals only exists in western societies in general. Nobody said the Bible has to be mentioned because most people today don't believe in it.  But the system they enjoy is because of certain principles that came from the Bible in the past 2,000 years.  Respect for rights is a principle that comes from the Bible because the Bible teaches love thy neighbour and respect human life.  Those principles are built into our laws, even though western countries are abandoning some principles now with abortion, MAID, and same-sex marriage.  That's part of the new sexual revolution and liberalism/progressivism.  Liberals are exploiting the heathen nature of Canada for power.

Edited January 20 by blackbird

[SpankyMcFarland]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

For at least a thousand years before the Reformation, the Catholic Church ruled the western world with an iron fist.  It was basically the only church around.  All others were outlawed.  There was no such thing as denominations until after the Reformation and even then they only came into existence in a few countries in northern Europe and the UK in the last few centuries.  I don't know if you are even aware, the priests controlled everyone's life in communities.  They knew everything that was going on and everyone was expected to be obedient to the Church. 

Perhaps you are not aware of that.  There were no such things as other denominations because it was illegal in most countries until the Reformation.  Then things started to change in some countries.  But only gradually.  There was a hundred years war in Europe that wiped out a large part of the population of Europe following the beginning of the Reformation in the 1500s.

I am aware of that. Do you agree about Luther? The record is hard to deny there and the Catholic Church can hardly be blamed for it. Instead of turning the page on such hatreds he doubled down on them. 
 

 

Edited January 20 by SpankyMcFarland

[SpankyMcFarland]

56 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Sorry aren’t tou conservatives the ones eho supposedly get upset whenever someone screams “racism” simply because they couldn’t have their way?  I’m not just an anti -semite but “a die hard anti-semite” just because I believe that international law, not the bible applies to territorial claims?  You’re a joke. 

The right is just as woke as anybody when it suits them but young people aren’t as easy to intimidate by accusations of anti-Semitism as older people. 

7 minutes ago, blackbird said:

God gave them the land in perpetuity whether you believe it or not.

What does that statement mean to an atheist? 

[blackbird]

3 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

I am aware of that. Do you agree about Luther? The record is hard to deny there and the Catholic Church can hardly be blamed for it. Instead of turning the page on such hatreds he doubled down on them. 
 

 

Yes, I agree that Luther was an anti-Semite, but that doesn't change the fact he was correct in what he believed and stood for in the Reformation.

Not sure what you mean "the Catholic Church can hardly be blamed".  The Catholic church was the power that existed for over a thousand years behind the anti-Semitism.  The anti-Semites throughout Europe were Roman Catholic people down through history.  

Luther and the anti-Semites were just the way the world was for the past 2,000 years.  Nothing particularly unusual about Luther being that way.  That was the way practically everyone was.

[blackbird]

4 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

The right is just as woke as anybody when it suits them but young people aren’t as easy to intimidate by accusations of anti-Semitism as older people. 

What does that statement mean to an atheist? 

Of course it means nothing to an atheist.  But it is still a Biblical fact.  People who are anti-God and anti-Bible and anti-Semites will face God on judgement day.  Can't say they haven't been warned here anyway.

[SpankyMcFarland]

2 hours ago, blackbird said:

Yes, I agree that Luther was an anti-Semite, but that doesn't change the fact he was correct in what he believed and stood for in the Reformation.

Well, he certainly wasn’t correct on the Jews for starters. 

 

2 hours ago, blackbird said:

Not sure what you mean "the Catholic Church can hardly be blamed".  The Catholic church was the power that existed for over a thousand years behind the anti-Semitism.  The anti-Semites throughout Europe were Roman Catholic people down through history.  
 

What I mean is you can’t blame the Catholic Church for all the other acts of anti-Semitism in Christianity, eg Russian Orthodox Church, Luther et cetera. Indeed, such madness persists in Russia to the present day. How many Catholic priests would get away with an accusation as outlandish as this?

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/in-russia-an-old-anti-semitic-blood-libel-gains-political-traction

Quote

On Monday, flanked by the patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church at a press conference in Moscow, the influential Russian Orthodox Church Bishop Tikhon Shevkunov—who is closely linked to Vladimir Putin and serves as the titular chair of the commission charged with investigating the execution of the last Czar, his family, and retinue—called for an investigation into the circumstances surrounding the death of Nicholas II in Yekaterinburg. He was particularly interested in finding out whether the slain monarch was killed in a ritual murder, reviving a widely held belief in the former Soviet Union that the Jews assassinated the Czar in a dark religious ceremony essential to ushering in Bolshevism. That theory had long been domain of ranting conspiracy mongers and eccentric babushkas, but now it appears to be taken seriously by the state itself: Following Shevkunov’s comments, the powerful Investigative Committee, Russia’s equivalent of the FBI, quickly announced that it would take part in such an investigation of alleged ritual killing. Needless to add, Russian Jewish community leaders were outraged.

 

2 hours ago, blackbird said:

Luther and the anti-Semites were just the way the world was for the past 2,000 years.  Nothing particularly unusual about Luther being that way.  That was the way practically everyone was.

That’s a very poor excuse. Luther made things much worse for Jews in Germany, a problem that persisted for many centuries afterwards. For all his other faults, Cromwell was famous for his philo-Semitism and welcomed them. Where did many Jews go after the Reconquista in Spain? To the Ottoman Empire. Things weren’t ideal there but they were much better than in Catholic Spain. 

Edited January 21 by SpankyMcFarland

[taxesanddeath]

How can you implement the 2-state solution when one of the parties keeps yelling from the river to the sea🤔

[blackbird]

57 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

What I mean is you can’t blame the Catholic Church for all the other acts of anti-Semitism in Christianity

I don't swallow that.  They were the power in the western world through the centuries.

We still don't know exactly what went on in the Vatican during WW2.  Is it a surprise that the church took a position of neutrality and impartiality as six million Jews and others were being killed?  Sort of like the present as Trudeau is trying to take a position of neutrality with the war in the middle east.

quote

As part of the effort to survey the approximately 16 million never-before-seen files, unveiled in March 2020, researchers hope to find out more about what happened inside concentration camps and how the Holocaust was carried out, sifting through cables to find out what the church knew and when. Scholars have long known what decisions the church made, including taking a position of neutrality and impartiality as 6 million Jews and millions of others were killed, but hope recently unsealed archives will show why those decisions were made. The documents reveal a complicated mix of actions and views among European Catholics and church leadership; there was both silence and aid, support for Jews and their Nazi tormenters, antisemitism and empathy.   unquote

Documents Reveal Catholic Church's Actions in the Holocaust | TIME

Edited January 20 by blackbird

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

That’s a very poor excuse. Luther made things much worse for Jews in Germany, a problem that persisted for many centuries afterwards.

Luther was not alone.  Basically most of Europe has been anti-Semitic down through the centuries.  Some countries confined Jews to ghettos and did not allow them citizenship. They were not treated humanely or like other citizens.  

The documents uncovered about how the church acted during WW2 and the holocaust reveal:

" The documents reveal a complicated mix of actions and views among European Catholics and church leadership; there was both silence and aid, support for Jews and their Nazi tormenters, antisemitism and empathy."

There you have the unvarnished truth about many European Catholics and church leadership.  

Edited January 20 by blackbird

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

What I mean is you can’t blame the Catholic Church for all the other acts of anti-Semitism in Christianity, eg Russian Orthodox Church, Luther etc

You seem to be trying to shift the blame for anti-Semitism away from the Catholic church even though they are by far the largest church in many European countries and especially for most of the past 2,000 years.

"David Kertzer’s 2022 book The Pope at War explores this policy of neutrality and impartiality and the consequence of Pope Pius XII’s public silence on the mass killings of Jews. Kertzer’s review of newly unsealed files revealed that Pope Pius XII worked hard not to offend Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini and feared that publicly opposing Hitler would turn off German Catholics. Kertzer told the New York Times that he was “flabbergasted” to discover a German Nazi prince who acted as a go-between with Hitler and the Pope and that a top Vatican advisor wrote a letter to the Pope urging him not to protest an order to roundup Italy’s Jews and send them to concentration camps."

Documents Reveal Catholic Church's Actions in the Holocaust | TIME

[WestCanMan]

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

1. That map is a tactical shitshow. 

You can see from a quick glance at that map that you could separate the Israeli army into 3 isolated groups with 2 tanks, a can of Pepsi and an attack dog. 

Of course that mishmash of non-contiguous provinces could never form a country, even if they weren't surrounded by enemies. It's a farce. 

2. You remember how Israel gained all that other territory, right? When they were attacked, by several countries at the same time, they had no choice but take control of Palestinian territory in order to keep their forces united. 

The Palestinians and their bigoted friends tried to go on yet another middle-eastern killing spree against Jews, but this time the Jews didn't get wiped out. They won. 

 

If you live long enough I have no doubt you'll get to witness the genocide that you're spoiling for, because Israel/America's technological advantages can't last forever. A billion muslims will eventually be able to beat 10M Jews. 

[BeaverFever]

59 minutes ago, taxesanddeath said:

How can you implement the 2-state solution when one of the parties keeps yelling from the river to the sea🤔

People from both parties are yelling that actually. 

[blackbird]

"But while the Catholic Church’s top leadership shied away from publicly condemning the atrocities in Germany, the documents also provide information on the Catholics who hid thousands of Jews across Europe. Over 6,000 Jews were hidden in Rome and on Vatican property. There are hundreds of thousands of letters to the Pope from Jewish families begging for help. “The Vatican dealt mainly with distribution of economic relief and by helping [mostly baptized Jews] emigrate to North or South America,” according to Giovanni Coco, Staff Archivist in the Vatican Apostolic Archives.

In some ways, researchers have found more contradictions than clear answers. At the same time Catholic rescuers were helping Jews, some of those same people were also helping Nazis. The Catholic Church worked to win clemency for convicted Nazi war criminals after the war. “The justification given for aid to Nazi war criminals was Christian love and mercy,” says Brown-Fleming, whose research focuses on this effort. “I’m finding that the Holy See wanted to show gratitude for the protection of the city of Rome during the occupation of Rome under the Nazis in 1943. Some German generals later convicted in the Nuremberg Trials had helped to defend property and valuable art and tried to avoid damaging Vatican property and cultural treasures in Rome.”

Documents Reveal Catholic Church's Actions in the Holocaust | TIME

[WestCanMan]

9 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

People from both parties are yelling that actually. 

When one side yells it they mean that they want to commit a genocide.

When the other side says it they mean that they've given up on a two-state solution after 75 years of being the only side trying, and they can't afford to keep shooting down the other side's barrages of thousands of missiles. 

If Hamas just fired 12,000 bombs at your country, would you just say "Awwww, shucks. Can't blame 'em for tryin'! Let's just leave 'em there and give 'em another go. Hopefully we can keep making/buying/receiving gifts of missiles that are capable of shooting down rockets in flight faster than they can make rockets."

Quick question: do you understand the economics of creating 12,000 interceptor missiles, vs just putting rocket propellant into 12,000 tubes and firing them?

Do you think it's harder to create a rocket, or a missile capable of stopping a rocket in mid-flight? Is it cheaper, or more expensive?

Why do I feel like I always have to hold your hand and walk you through these topics? 

Edited January 20 by WestCanMan

[BeaverFever]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

Israel existed there several thousand year ago

Sounds like you believe indigenous peoples have permanent enduring rights to their land that last millennia and any later arrivals have no right to it no matter how long they’ve been settled there. You must be in the process of ceding your property to First Nations and “returning” to Europe then. No?

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

God gave them the land in perpetuity whether you believe it or not.

I don’t, and it wouldn’t matter if I did because that’s not how the law works. 
 

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

Our society is built on Judeo-Christian principles whether you acknowledge it or not.  Even respect for human rights of individuals only exists in western societies in general.

Irrelevant. Also overstated as some of these values evolved out of a rejection of religious demagoguery and puritanism. . 

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

Nobody said the Bible has to be mentioned because most people today don't believe in it. 

I wish it were true that “most people today don’t believe in it”. Maybe in my grandkids lifetime but as a species humans are inherently prone to magical and irrational beliefs, perhaps even require them. Humans also have a natural innate need for tribalism and religion is on way to be part of a tribe and hate other tribes. So probably in the coming centuries these superstitions will always be with us, but I suspect that over time as society evolves in unknown ways these beliefs will change so much as to eventually become unrecognizable compared to today 

 

 

[BeaverFever]

16 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

That map is a tactical shitshow. 

You can see from a quick glance at that map that you could separate the Israeli army into 3 isolated groups with 2 tanks, a can of Pepsi and an attack dog. 

Of course that mishmash of non-contiguous provinces could never form a country, even if they weren't surrounded by enemies. It's a farce. 

Perhaps, perhaps not but that’s the only legal blueprint from which they can build everything after that has to go through the usual process of negotiation. Funny how conservative hypocrites claim to be the party of law and order while being so quick to ignore and disregard any law and order that’s inconvenient for them. 

Second if it was really only about security Israel wouldn’t be building settlements in those territories and moving people in there. 
 

21 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

You remember how Israel gained all that other territory, right? When they were attacked, by several countries at the same time, they had no choice but take control of Palestinian territory in order to keep their forces united. 

The Palestinians and their bigoted friends tried to go on yet another middle-eastern killing spree against Jews, but this time the Jews didn't get wiped out. They won

Yes of course I know that but it doesn’t change anything. You can’t legally invade and annex territory that doesn’t belong to you, period. 
 

 

[BeaverFever]

14 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

When one side yells it they mean that they want to commit a genocide.

 

No not all of them 

 

15 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

When the other side says it they mean that they've given up on a two-state solution after 75 years of being the only side trying, and they can't afford to keep shooting down the other side's barrages of thousands of missiles. 

1) Bullshit that they’ve been the only ones trying as there was sincere effort on both sides.
 

2)While SOME Israelis have been trying and the last one to do so was assassinated by his fellow Israelis. Some Israelis like Netanyahu and his extremist coalition members have only been trying to destroy any chance of peace and over 75 years have been very outspoken about NEVER accepting a Palestinian state.
 

I bet you have never heard of Irgun, Haganah, and Lehi, some of the more prominent Jewish terrorist groups in British Palestine whose regular terrorist attack against British and Arabs alike were as common as Hamas attacks today. Arab Villages slaughtered not unlike Oct 7, civilians gunned down at bus stops, bombing British soldiers,  they did it all.  Today Netanyahu and revere these as “freedom fighters” and national heroes but they were not any different than Hamas.

 

28 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

If Hamas just fired 12,000 bombs at your country, would you just say "Awwww, shucks. Can't blame 'em for tryin'! Let's just leave 'em there and give 'em another go. Hopefully we can keep making/buying/receiving gifts of missiles that are capable of shooting down rockets in flight faster than they can make rockets."

No, where in any of this have I ever said Israel should do nothing and just continue its usual occupation?Stop being so utterly obtuse 

 

30 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Quick question: do you understand the economics of creating 12,000 interceptor missiles, vs just putting rocket propellant into 12,000 tubes and firing them?

Do you think it's harder to create a rocket, or a missile capable of stopping a rocket in mid-flight? Is it cheaper, or more expensive?

If you honestly believe this indiscriminate bombing campaign and wanton destruction is going to result in fewer terrorist attacks in the future then you’re fooling yourself. As you said the rockets can be easily made and mass produced therefore destroying the ones that exist now is of little use. Also how much do think this months-long military campaign is going to cost Israel ?  Do you understand THOSE economics?

 

37 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Why do I feel like I always have to hold your hand and walk you through these topics? 

Because you routinely fail to understand what other people are saying and succumb to emotional responses. Consequently, or perhaps causal to this fact, you have poor logic and reasoning skills. Therefore you assume a person’s refusal to agree with you is based upon their failure to understand you instead of your own flawed arguments. 

[SpankyMcFarland]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

You seem to be trying to shift the blame for anti-Semitism away from the Catholic church even though they are by far the largest church in many European countries and especially for most of the past 2,000 years.

No. What I am saying is this: the whole of Christianity and Europe had a problem with anti-Semitism, not just Catholics but Protestants and Orthodox Christians too. 
 

 

1 hour ago, taxesanddeath said:

How can you implement the 2-state solution when one of the parties keeps yelling from the river to the sea🤔

Both sides say it. Only one side actually did it. 

[SpankyMcFarland]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

I don't swallow that.  They were the power in the western world through the centuries.

The RC church hasn’t been at the centre of power since the appearance of the nation-state. Since 1800, of the great powers only France and Austria-Hungary were Catholic and France had a decidedly ambivalent approach to any religion in the running of the state. 

Yes, Hitler and many Nazis were born Catholic but they were running a country that had been stridently anti-Catholic under Bismarck. Hitler had strong support among working class Protestants. 

I brought up Luther just to illustrate that Christian anti-Semitism is a widespread phenomenon not confined to any particular denomination. 
 

 

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

People from both parties are yelling that actually. 

They're not really tho.  That's the thing.

If palestine laid down its arms tomorrow - they would have their own state.

If israel laid down it's arms tomorrow - we'd have a second holocaust.

And at the end of the day if push keeps coming to shove the palestinians are going to lose. Look at the map over time - are they gaining ground? No?  Has israel been taking ground over time as they become fed up with these monsters? Yes?

so how do you think that ends? What's that map look like in 60 more years?  Betcha it really is from the river to the sea if Palestine doesn't get it's head out of it's ass and get very serious about peace.  As in - all of them, the people, the gov'ts etc.

You're a person who thinks with his heart and that' s not something to be ashamed of, but this is an exercise in practical thinking. They're GOING to get killed and tossed afloat in the world if they don't change pretty quick - i'm not 100 percent sure it's not going to end that way THIS time for them.