Israel presents its defense against claims of genocide in Gaza

[Guest]

On 1/13/2024 at 5:58 PM, robosmith said:

Hamas won't allow elections because they are afraid they'll LOSE.

I wonder why...

[Nationalist]

On 1/12/2024 at 12:13 PM, Rebound said:

This is fascinating, and perhaps a first: A nation is on trial for going to war after being attacked. Israeli lawyers made a well reasoned defense, for instance:

“In Israel’s defense on Friday, its lawyers said that the Israeli military had worked to preserve civilian life, giving noncombatants two weeks to leave northern Gaza before Israel invaded the area in late October and, after freezing aid delivery at the start of the war, later enabling its daily supply. 

“Israel’s efforts to mitigate the ravages of this war on civilians are the very opposite of intent to destroy them,” Galit Raguan, one of the six representatives, said during the hearing.

“If Israel had such intent, would it delay a ground maneuver for weeks, urging civilians to seek safer space and, in doing so, sacrificing operational advantage?” Ms. Raguan asked. “Would it invest massive resources to provide civilians details about where to go, when to go, how to go, to leave areas of fighting?”

“Israel’s lawyers argued that it would set a dangerous precedent if the judges ordered Israel to halt its offensive. They said that could allow international law to be used as a means of preventing states from defending themselves against terrorist attacks committed by groups like Hamas.

The Israeli lawyers also said it was Hamas that was guilty of genocidal acts on Oct. 7, and they blamed the group for bringing destruction on civilians in Gaza by embedding their fighters in residential areas.

Heavy symbolism hung over the proceedings, as Israel’s representatives addressed the paradox of Israel, a state created to protect Jews from genocide, standing accused of the same crime.

“For some, the promise of ‘never again for all peoples’ is a slogan,” said Tal Becker, who opened Israel’s defense. “For Israel, it is the highest moral obligation.”

Source: https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/01/11/world/israel-hamas-houthi-yemen-news/israel-presents-its-defense-against-claims-of-genocide-in-gaza

One of the rare occasions I agree with you.

I don't like Israel much at all. But they have every right to wage this war. As far as I'm concerned, those left alive in Gaza are lucky to be so.

[Rebound]

17 hours ago, robosmith said:

Most likely he did. But wanted to avoid alerting the Japanese we had broken their codes.

Do you know that ALL of the aircraft carriers were OUT OF PORT during that attack?

^False equivalence. 

Bush was warned, but ONLY 20 or so men knew the actual methods planned for that attack.

You can bet there would have been different actions had it been known that airliners would be used as bombs.

Yes, I said that Hamas would not allow elections.

Netanyahu is playing EVERYONE.

Certainly not everything. I believe Palestinians have a legitimate case for compensation for the loss of their property AND FREEDOM to form their own state.

The Palestinians can receive the compensation from the twelve Arab nations who haven’t compensated the million Jews they’ve kicked out, how’s that?  
 

See the double standard? It’s ok to kick out the Jews! Everybody does it.  The Palestinians weren’t kicked out, they left and resided about an hour away.  The UN funded refugee camps for them, which they’ve refused to leave for 75 years!! 
 

Can you name any people in history who were refugees for 75 years? Can you name a refugee group who devoted 75 years to non-stop war and terrorism? Why can’t they get their shlt together and just live their lives in peace?  
 

And, please, don’t tell me how the Jews are wealthy. The oil sheiks have infinitely more money than the world’s Jews. But instead of food and housing, they give the Palestinians bombs. Meanwhile, Israel has invented drip agriculture and become a semiconductor powerhouse.  
 

The Jews will never leave Israel because they have nowhere to go. They will not allow the Palestinians and their children/grandchildren/great-grandchildren/great-great-grandchildren back because obviously, this would leave the Jews out-numbered, which would put Hamas or Islamic Jihad back in power, and the Jews would face expulsion yet again.  
 

Israel has faced war after war after war because the Palestinians won’t accept the existence of Israel. A lot more than 23,000 Israelis have been killed in these wars.  So here’s the plan: Fight the enemy until they surrender.  

Edited January 15, 2024 by Rebound

[Rebound]

7 hours ago, myata said:

When someone is losing sanity piece by piece there will be many firsts. No one thought of accusing the Allies of genocide for acts while defeating the Axis. When criminal tyrants make whole countries hostages of their delusional policies, and wars, there may not be soft and fluffy answers not matter how much one wanted to dream, chit-chat and demand it. Doesn't exist. Out of this reality.

One moral obligation is to not target civilians, deliberately and predominantly, without a justified military objective. That's it. Against this kind of evil, one has the full right to defend themselves by any means and cost. Nothing beats the survival.

 

Hamas’ soldiers are all civilians. They don’t have an official military; they’re all “freedom fighters”. 
 

1,000 Hamas dead = 1,000 Palestinian civilians dead.

In all the death count reports, they never tell you how many militants were killed.  They only count them as civilians. 

[myata]

1 hour ago, Rebound said:

Hamas’ soldiers are all civilians.

One cannot target civilians as regular citizens deliberately and on purpose, without justifiable military objective. That would be all. To the complete, unquestionable victory. No other logical or moral constraints can exist in a situation where terrorist made whole city, or a country their hostage.

Dropping the N-bomb on Japan in 1945 would be in some tension with that principle but nobody complained. In Gaza, Yemen and Lebanon there's been no sign of it so far.

[robosmith]

On 1/15/2024 at 11:00 AM, Rebound said:

Hamas’ soldiers are all civilians. They don’t have an official military; they’re all “freedom fighters”. 
 

1,000 Hamas dead = 1,000 Palestinian civilians dead.

In all the death count reports, they never tell you how many militants were killed.  They only count them as civilians. 

I've seen several reports on how many Hamas vs. civilians who were killed. Of course there are estimates.

I believe that the IDF has a good idea about WHO in Gaza are Hamas militants.

Israel-Gaza: Israel says it has arrested hundreds of Hamas and Islamic Jihad members

[CdnFox]

11 minutes ago, robosmith said:

I've seen several reports on how many Hamas vs. civilians who were killed. Of course there are estimates.

I believe that the IDF has a good idea about WHO in Gaza are Hamas militants.

Israel-Gaza: Israel says it has arrested hundreds of Hamas and Islamic Jihad members

This OPINION is USELESS without PROOF!!!!  

Isn't it amazing how he's adamant people should accept what he says without a single cite but furious when other people post something without an actual note from God certifying it?

[taxme]

On 1/12/2024 at 9:13 AM, Rebound said:

This is fascinating, and perhaps a first: A nation is on trial for going to war after being attacked. Israeli lawyers made a well reasoned defense, for instance:

“In Israel’s defense on Friday, its lawyers said that the Israeli military had worked to preserve civilian life, giving noncombatants two weeks to leave northern Gaza before Israel invaded the area in late October and, after freezing aid delivery at the start of the war, later enabling its daily supply. 

“Israel’s efforts to mitigate the ravages of this war on civilians are the very opposite of intent to destroy them,” Galit Raguan, one of the six representatives, said during the hearing.

“If Israel had such intent, would it delay a ground maneuver for weeks, urging civilians to seek safer space and, in doing so, sacrificing operational advantage?” Ms. Raguan asked. “Would it invest massive resources to provide civilians details about where to go, when to go, how to go, to leave areas of fighting?”

“Israel’s lawyers argued that it would set a dangerous precedent if the judges ordered Israel to halt its offensive. They said that could allow international law to be used as a means of preventing states from defending themselves against terrorist attacks committed by groups like Hamas.

The Israeli lawyers also said it was Hamas that was guilty of genocidal acts on Oct. 7, and they blamed the group for bringing destruction on civilians in Gaza by embedding their fighters in residential areas.

Heavy symbolism hung over the proceedings, as Israel’s representatives addressed the paradox of Israel, a state created to protect Jews from genocide, standing accused of the same crime.

“For some, the promise of ‘never again for all peoples’ is a slogan,” said Tal Becker, who opened Israel’s defense. “For Israel, it is the highest moral obligation.”

Source: https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/01/11/world/israel-hamas-houthi-yemen-news/israel-presents-its-defense-against-claims-of-genocide-in-gaza

Aw bullshit. If the Israelis were giving the Palestinians time to get out, Hamas would have done the same thing. Left. Why would Hamas stick around if they knew that they were going to be bombed? This was more about trying to destroy Gaza, and the Palestinian people, in order to take over all of Gaza for Israel. Apparently, the land in Gaza is very rich in oil. Could that be the reason for all of this bombing going on of Palestine by the Israelis by chance? Hmmm? 

To date, 25,000 Palestinians have been murdered by Israel. This is not about trying to get rid of Hamas. This is about kicking Palestinians off their land with an hostile takeover of Gaza. Just my opinion of course. 😇

 

[Rebound]

19 hours ago, taxme said:

Aw bullshit. If the Israelis were giving the Palestinians time to get out, Hamas would have done the same thing. Left. Why would Hamas stick around if they knew that they were going to be bombed? This was more about trying to destroy Gaza, and the Palestinian people, in order to take over all of Gaza for Israel. Apparently, the land in Gaza is very rich in oil. Could that be the reason for all of this bombing going on of Palestine by the Israelis by chance? Hmmm? 

To date, 25,000 Palestinians have been murdered by Israel. This is not about trying to get rid of Hamas. This is about kicking Palestinians off their land with an hostile takeover of Gaza. Just my opinion of course. 😇

 

Hamas is basically  the same as ISIS and the Taliban. They’d murder you and me in a heartbeat.  They hate everything you and I stand for.  If you think you and I are politically different, it’s nothing compared to these people.  
 

But to answer your question, the last thing Hamas will do is leave Gaza.  Maybe their top leaders snuck out; I have no idea. But they are clearly fighting Israel in Gaza.  They think they can conquer all of Israel, and a big step is for Hamas to create maximal civilian casualties so that bleeding heart Americans and Europeans cut funding to Israel. 

Edited January 18, 2024 by Rebound

[taxme]

5 hours ago, Rebound said:

Hamas is basically  the same as ISIS and the Taliban. They’d murder you and me in a heartbeat.  They hate everything you and I stand for.  If you think you and I are politically different, it’s nothing compared to these people.  
 

But to answer your question, the last thing Hamas will do is leave Gaza.  Maybe their top leaders snuck out; I have no idea. But they are clearly fighting Israel in Gaza.  They think they can conquer all of Israel, and a big step is for Hamas to create maximal civilian casualties so that bleeding heart Americans and Europeans cut funding to Israel. 

I could careless about what happens to Hamas. I do not support them in anyway. Israel has murdered tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians already and are doing so in a heart beat. So far, 25,000 Palestinians dead. This is great for Israel because the less Palestinians around the better for them. Hamas may say that they want Israel gone. But Israel wants all  Palestinians gone. Israel wants Gaza all for themselves. Lots of oil in them there grounds in Gaza. 😒