Is Hate Speech Free Speech?

[Hodad]

5 hours ago, taxme said:

Ever heard of this old saying? "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me".

As long as there is no violence involved, then calling some snowflake a name, should not be seen as promoting hate. One could say that they hate Muslims out loud in the public. So, is that to be considered an hate crime just for saying so in public? Fifty years ago, if someone said that the government was planning on creating an hate law in the future, they would have been laughed at and ridiculed. If Peter was white, and said to Stevie who was black, that i hate you, would he now be able to be charged with an hate crime? No doubt that with an hate law on the books, there is the possibility that Peter could be charged with an hate crime. Hey, we never know, eh? 

Besides, we already have laws that will not allow violence towards any person or group that is already written in the criminal code of Canada. So, why have another similar law also? There appears to be more to this hate law than what we really think it does mean. This is just my conspiracy beliefs kicking in here once again. Ha-ha-ha. 

At this point, I think we know the old saying is not true. We see that words do hurt. They can hurt anyone, but the emotionally vulnerable are particularly at risk. And with the easy reach words have today we've seen an epidemic of young people socially bullied to death. 

Or you can think of Hitler and the Nazi propaganda machine dehumanized Jews and other vulnerable minorities to the point that an otherwise sane populace came to accept unbelievable atrocities. 

So words do matter and they certainly can hurt.

The idea of a hate crime is that it has the secondary effect of terrorizing the targeted group. It's similar to the way that we think of terrorism and murder differently. Yes, they are both killing, but terrorism (like hate crimes) causes additional harm to the population outside of the direct harm to the victims.

[Caswell Thomas]

On 1/8/2024 at 8:59 AM, Rebound said:

When should hate speech be prohibited, and how?

For instance, if someone advocates for genocide against Jews, is it hate speech? Should it be banned? Most importantly, what if the speaker claims he was not advocating genocide while the listener believes he was advocating genocide?

One Definition of Hate Speech: “Any form of expression through which speakers intend to vilify, humiliate or incite hatred against a group or a class of persons on the basis of race, religion, skin color, sexual identity, gender identity, ethnicity, disability or national origin.” However, the Supreme Court has ruled that hate speech is usually legal, unless it targets a person or group with imminent harm. Seems as though this puts universities in a pickle: If a group is calling for genocide, but not for immediately killing or hurting people, they are apparently exercising their legal free speech rights. How should the university respond?

Take the group off campus, give no support whatsoever. Many of these groups start up using free services and products of universities mistaking free speech for free ability to take and consume / use whatever material support the university gas on hand to facilitate the distribution if what the group claims . Yet when universities withdraw these funds, these meeting rooms, these materials for making posters or getting online to spout their dogma, the group leaders immediately claim they are being persecuted. Untrue. The university is merely protecting itself from civil lawsuits. 

[herbie]

Thankfully I don't live in the Untied States.

I live where only a complete s##hole would think they have the "right" to promote hatred.

[Yakuda]

12 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Of course words compel people.  Where would we be without rhetoric?

But nobody's banning speech.  A lot of ignorant people seem to be upset that politeness is a common value, I think.  That's all it is.

That's pure nonsense. If words compel then deposit $1 million dollars in my bank account. 

The comedian George Carlin once said, "Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners." Whenever I hear "politeness" it reminds of Carlin's words and its usually spot on. 

[Michael Hardner]

Just now, Yakuda said:

1. That's pure nonsense. If words compel then deposit $1 million dollars in my bank account. 

2. The comedian George Carlin once said, "Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners."

3. Whenever I hear "politeness" it reminds of Carlin's words and its usually spot on. 

1. Ok.  Send me your account information.

2. I've been looking online and that seems like it's a misquote. Do you have a video or audio clip of him actually saying it? He was a notorious liberal.

3. Are you against politeness? 😂

 

 

[Yakuda]

11 hours ago, Hodad said:

Sounds easier.

And no, he absolutely did incite the insurrection. The only reason those people marched down to storm the Capitol and hunt our legislators is because Trump told them lies for months, riled them up again that day and told them that stopping the certification was an existential crisis for the country.

Partisan hacks will equivocate, but that's a fact. 

Oh right you're one of those that thinks words compel people to action. If so then put $1 million dollars in my bank account. 

If the tds crowd had thr goods to charge trump with insurrection they would have done it. They don't they just the narrative, "trump incited insurrection". The narrative is a lie and the left repeated it say after day. Sounds familiar huh? 

[Yakuda]

2 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Ok.  Send me your account information.

2. I've been looking online and that seems like it's a misquote. Do you have a video or audio clip of him actually saying it? He was a notorious liberal.

3. Are you against politeness? 😂

 

 

You and I be with know words don't compel people to action. 

I found that quote very easily. He was a liberal but even he recognized the BS of political correctness. It's an attempt at thought control just like the trans nonsense. We're supposed to believe someone with a penis is a woman. 

 Yes when it's forced on me. You should be too. 

[Yakuda]

9 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Ok.  Send me your account information.

2. I've been looking online and that seems like it's a misquote. Do you have a video or audio clip of him actually saying it? He was a notorious liberal.

3. Are you against politeness? 😂

 

 

The quote was a poor summary of Carlin's larger point. This is from a book he wrote, When Will Jesus Bring The Pork Cops?

Political correctness is America's newest form of intolerance, and it is especially pernicious because it comes disguised as tolerance. It presents itself as fairness, yet attempts to restrict and control people's language with strict codes and rigid rules. I'm not sure that's the way to fight discrimination. I'm not sure silencing people or forcing them to alter their speech is the best method for solving problems that go much deeper than speech.

George Carlin, When Will Jesus Bring the Pork Chops

[Yakuda]

8 hours ago, herbie said:

Thankfully I don't live in the Untied States.

I live where only a complete s##hole would think they have the "right" to promote hatred.

Yeah freedom is scary to weak minded people. Sadly more and more people in the US are being trained to be weak minded. 

[Hodad]

1 hour ago, Yakuda said:

Oh right you're one of those that thinks words compel people to action. If so then put $1 million dollars in my bank account. 

If the tds crowd had thr goods to charge trump with insurrection they would have done it. They don't they just the narrative, "trump incited insurrection". The narrative is a lie and the left repeated it say after day. Sounds familiar huh? 

Of course words compel action. They just have to be compelling words.

Are there any laws that you follow that cause you to behave in ways that you wouldn't voluntarily or naturally behave?

Of course. Congrats, words have compelled you. 

 

To be compelling, words have to be believed and communicate plausible positive or negative benefits of a proposition. You believe the words are earnest and true, they give you information and you take action on that information if the perceived consequence is sufficiently attractive or repulsive to justify the action.

[Michael Hardner]

2 hours ago, Yakuda said:

1. You and I be with know words don't compel people to action. 

2. I found that quote very easily.

3. He was a liberal but even he recognized the BS of political correctness.

4. It's an attempt at thought control just like the trans nonsense.

5. We're supposed to believe someone with a penis is a woman. 

 6. Yes when it's forced on me. You should be too. 

1. Hm ?
2. Post the cite then.
3. Maybe.  Is the quote real though ?
4. Or... a moral proclamation which is akin to what you do when you oppose PC.. all the same, tit for tat...
5. Believe what you want.  All we know is that they're becoming accepted, socially, as women more and more - especially in our political/legal system.
6.  It's only a social convention.  I can't think of a legal way you're forced to be polite.

2 hours ago, Yakuda said:

 

Political correctness is America's newest form of intolerance, and it is especially pernicious because it comes disguised as tolerance. It presents itself as fairness, yet attempts to restrict and control people's language with strict codes and rigid rules. I'm not sure that's the way to fight discrimination. I'm not sure silencing people or forcing them to alter their speech is the best method for solving problems that go much deeper than speech.

 

Thank you for the correction.

[Yakuda]

20 minutes ago, Hodad said:

Of course words compel action. They just have to be compelling words.

Are there any laws that you follow that cause you to behave in ways that you wouldn't voluntarily or naturally behave?

Of course. Congrats, words have compelled you. 

 

To be compelling, words have to be believed and communicate plausible positive or negative benefits of a proposition. You believe the words are earnest and true, they give you information and you take action on that information if the perceived consequence is sufficiently attractive or repulsive to justify the action.

The listener makes the choice to not the speaker. Nice try though 

[Yakuda]

52 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Hm ?
2. Post the cite then.
3. Maybe.  Is the quote real though ?
4. Or... a moral proclamation which is akin to what you do when you oppose PC.. all the same, tit for tat...
5. Believe what you want.  All we know is that they're becoming accepted, socially, as women more and more - especially in our political/legal system.
6.  It's only a social convention.  I can't think of a legal way you're forced to be polite.

Thank you for the correction.

I dit cite the quote, it's from his book. Even a rabid liberal like Carlin could see the dangers of the PC bill crap. The same is true today with Bill Maher who is clear minded about how far off the rails Democrats have gone. 

People have been fired from jobs because they said stuff people didn't like. The punishment doesn't need to be legal for it to be painful. 

[Michael Hardner]

4 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

1. I dit cite the quote, it's from his book.  

2. People have been fired from jobs because they said stuff people didn't like.

3. The punishment doesn't need to be legal for it to be painful. 

1. I saw that.  Ok, correction is good then.
2. No way.  Wow.  You must be a very rude person.  I have never heard of that happening in my career.  I have worked with, basically, White Supremacists who knew how to keep their traps shut.  Sorry for your tragic comuppances.
3.  So there ISN'T a ban then.  Correction is good.  I'm sorry you find it hard to get by being anti-social and such.

[Yakuda]

13 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. I saw that.  Ok, correction is good then.
2. No way.  Wow.  You must be a very rude person.  I have never heard of that happening in my career.  I have worked with, basically, White Supremacists who knew how to keep their traps shut.  Sorry for your tragic comuppances.
3.  So there ISN'T a ban then.  Correction is good.  I'm sorry you find it hard to get by being anti-social and such.

I'm not rude but I have no problem saying what I think and I don't really care what others think. There are only 5 people whose opinion of me matters to me. I also wasnt referring to me but not sure why you can't keep up. People have been fired for saying things people don't like. 

No just the same consequences as a ban. Do you know who Donald Sterling is? 

[Hodad]

1 hour ago, Yakuda said:

The listener makes the choice to not the speaker. Nice try though 

Of course the listener makes their own choices. You could choose to defy the law. There would then be consequences.The language of the directive is still compelling. 

Do you think the word "compel" means exclusively to literally use physical force to move someone's body.

If so, you're using your own made up definition. Everyone else understands that "compelling" describes a spectrum of very motivating language rather than physical force. 

[Michael Hardner]

9 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

1. I'm not rude but I have no problem saying what I think and I don't really care what others think.
2. There are only 5 people whose opinion of me matters to me.
3. I also wasnt referring to me but not sure why you can't keep up.
4. People have been fired for saying things people don't like. 
5. No just the same consequences as a ban.
6. Do you know who Donald Sterling is? 

1. This is a helpful perspective, especially for people who are purposefully insulted sometimes.  Also, I doubt that a person who values politeness would ever articulate such a sentiment.
2. Is one of them the HR manager ?  Hope so.
3. I'm slow.  Also I'm interested when people articulate public values and morality thinking that their perspective is universal.  I'm more polite than most but I don't believe politeness is mandatory.  Rude people tend to feel rudeness IS mandatory, in my experience.
4. i.e. you
5. Not the same... police can't arrest you for being rude in this country.
6. Googled... some wealthy racist who faced comuppance.  Should I feel sorry for him ?  Some people don't understand their privilege I guess. 
 

[Yakuda]

9 minutes ago, Hodad said:

Of course the listener makes their own choices. You could choose to defy the law. There would then be consequences.The language of the directive is still compelling. 

Do you think the word "compel" means exclusively to literally use physical force to move someone's body.

If so, you're using your own made up definition. Everyone else understands that "compelling" describes a spectrum of very motivating language rather than physical force. 

Dictionary

Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more

 

verb

verb: compel; 3rd person present: compels; past tense: compelled; past participle: compelled; gerund or present participle: compelling

1. force or oblige (someone) to do something.

   "a sense of duty compelled Harry to answer her questions"

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

   Similar:

   force

    

    

   coerce into

    

   pressurize into

    

   pressure

    

    

   impel

    

    

   drive

    

    

   press

    

    

   push

    

    

   urge

    

    

   prevail on

    

   dragoon into

    

   browbeat into

    

   bully into

    

   bludgeon into

    

   intimidate into

    

   terrorize into

    

   oblige

    

    

   require

    

    

   put under an obligation

    

   leave someone no option but to

    

   make

    

    

   bulldoze

    

    

   railroad

    

    

   steamroller

    

    

   twist someone's arm

    

    

   strong-arm

    

    

   lean on

    

    

   put the screws on

    

    

   constrain

    

    

   exact

    

    

   extort

    

    

   demand

    

    

   insist on

    

   enforce

    

    

   necessitate

    

   • bring about (something) by the use of force or pressure.

     "they may compel a witness's attendance at court by issue of a summons"
   • LITERARY

     drive forcibly.

     "by heav'n's high will compell'd from shore to shore"

      

     It has nothing to do with what I think

[Yakuda]

20 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. This is a helpful perspective, especially for people who are purposefully insulted sometimes.  Also, I doubt that a person who values politeness would ever articulate such a sentiment.
2. Is one of them the HR manager ?  Hope so.
3. I'm slow.  Also I'm interested when people articulate public values and morality thinking that their perspective is universal.  I'm more polite than most but I don't believe politeness is mandatory.  Rude people tend to feel rudeness IS mandatory, in my experience.
4. i.e. you
5. Not the same... police can't arrest you for being rude in this country.
6. Googled... some wealthy racist who faced comuppance.  Should I feel sorry for him ?  Some people don't understand their privilege I guess. 
 

1. Oh yes politeness above all. I care what people think but I don't control what people think so I don't spend much time worrying about it. 

2. God, my wife, my 2 kids and my boss. 

3. Rudeness isn't mandatory but is sometimes necessary. People tried being polite to Hitler. That worked out well didn't it. Politeness rarely creates long term change. Certainly leftists in America aren't polite. 

So I'm other words he deserved to be punished for things people don't like to hear. During that whole incident not a single person accused sterling of mistreating a black person. He was ousted simply for words people like you don't like. 

[Michael Hardner]

1 minute ago, Yakuda said:

1.  I care what people think...

2. God, my wife, my 2 kids and my boss. 

3. Rudeness isn't mandatory but is sometimes necessary. People tried being polite to Hitler. That worked out well didn't it. Politeness rarely creates long term change. Certainly leftists in America aren't polite. 

4. So I'm other words he deserved to be punished for things people don't like to hear. 

 

words people like you don't like. 

1. You said "I don't really care what others think"

2. Ok.  God doesn't want you to be needlessly rude.  #1 on your list.

3. Ok.  I will allow that you should be rude to Hitler.

4.  

5. Nothing to do with me.

[Yakuda]

6 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. You said "I don't really care what others think"

2. Ok.  God doesn't want you to be needlessly rude.  #1 on your list.

3. Ok.  I will allow that you should be rude to Hitler.

4.  

5. Nothing to do with me.

Right because I can't do anything about what you think of me. 

Cite the quote from God that supports your claim 

So rudeness is necessary some times. Good. You think it's an all or nothing prospect but it isn't. 

It has everything to do with the topic though 

[Michael Hardner]

13 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

1. Right because I can't do anything about what you think of me. 

2. Cite the quote from God that supports your claim 

3. So rudeness is necessary some times. Good. You think it's an all or nothing prospect but it isn't. 

4. It has everything to do with the topic though 

1. You said "I care what people think"
2. God doesn't post on here.  He said it to me verbally in one of our sessions.
3. Yes it's necessary some times.  Speaking of all or nothing prospects, didn't you use Hitler to defend your insulting the secretary at work, or whatever incident(s) you got fired for ?
4. My position ?  If you have to bring me into it you don't have enough evidence to support your ideas.  I'm not going to back you up on this, sorry.  I don't care about NBA owners or whatever.

[Hodad]

2 hours ago, Yakuda said:

Dictionary

Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more

 

verb

verb: compel; 3rd person present: compels; past tense: compelled; past participle: compelled; gerund or present participle: compelling

1. force or oblige (someone) to do something.

   "a sense of duty compelled Harry to answer her questions"

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

   Similar:

   force

    

    

   coerce into

    

   pressurize into

    

   pressure

    

    

   impel

    

    

   drive

    

    

   press

    

    

   push

    

    

   urge

    

    

   prevail on

    

   dragoon into

    

   browbeat into

    

   bully into

    

   bludgeon into

    

   intimidate into

    

   terrorize into

    

   oblige

    

    

   require

    

    

   put under an obligation

    

   leave someone no option but to

    

   make

    

    

   bulldoze

    

    

   railroad

    

    

   steamroller

    

    

   twist someone's arm

    

    

   strong-arm

    

    

   lean on

    

    

   put the screws on

    

    

   constrain

    

    

   exact

    

    

   extort

    

    

   demand

    

    

   insist on

    

   enforce

    

    

   necessitate

    

   • bring about (something) by the use of force or pressure.

     "they may compel a witness's attendance at court by issue of a summons"
   • LITERARY

     drive forcibly.

     "by heav'n's high will compell'd from shore to shore"

      

     It has nothing to do with what I think

You posted it, but apparently didn't read it. 🤣

The very first example: "a sense of duty compelled Harry to answer her questions"  <-- oh, look, it's not physical.

Summons? <-- oh yeah, those are words

Did you happen to read that long list of "similar" words? Or synonyms? Apparently not.
Coerce, pressure, demand, insist, urge, etc.

 

I'm guessing you're the sort of person who will choose to die on this hill rather than admit you didn't know the meaning of the word, but it wont' change the fact that everybody else is pretty clear what it means. You're erecting an artificial barrier to communication.

 

Edited January 11 by Hodad

[Yakuda]

1 minute ago, Hodad said:

You posted it, but apparently didn't read it. 🤣

The very first example: "a sense of duty compelled Harry to answer her questions"  <-- oh, look, it's not physical.

Summons? <-- oh yeah, those are words

 

The basic definition is to force. No words can make me behave in ways I don't choose. I am responsible for my choices not the words of other people. If a person holds a gun to your head and says, "Give me your money or ill blow your brains out" you can say you didnt have a choice but that is factually incorrect. You choose to act thats why the, "I was just following orders l" excuse never works. Even a drunk driver is responsible for murder if they choose to drive drunk. Stop the silliness. 

[Hodad]

4 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

The basic definition is to force. No words can make me behave in ways I don't choose. I am responsible for my choices not the words of other people. If a person holds a gun to your head and says, "Give me your money or ill blow your brains out" you can say you didnt have a choice but that is factually incorrect. You choose to act thats why the, "I was just following orders l" excuse never works. Even a drunk driver is responsible for murder if they choose to drive drunk. Stop the silliness. 

Great. Now look up the definition of "force" which ALSO does not have to be physical. Jeebus.

As expected, you clearly will choose to die on the stupid hill. The definition YOU posted contradicted your argument, but still you persist. Talk about silliness.

If your ego is too fragile to admit a mistake or gap in knowledge, that's pretty sad.

Edited January 11 by Hodad