FPTP is extreme danger in uncertain and volatile times

[August1991]

10 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

????  dude.  Where did you think it was?

There are several provinces/counties in the Netherlands.

Some counties are known as Holland.

The people in the Netherlands are both Protestant and Catholic.

Many years ago, I was in Venlo during the Carnival. Venlo is in the south. During Carnival, they wear clown costumes one day, and farmer costumes the next.  I was a clown.

[CdnFox]

31 minutes ago, August1991 said:

There are several provinces/counties in the Netherlands.

Some counties are known as Holland.

The people in the Netherlands are both Protestant and Catholic.

 

Yes, i knew this when i was like 10 years old.  How the hell did you get to your age and just find that out? Wait.... how old are you? This could explain a lot....

[myata]

11 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

It is more important to have MP's free to exercise their own judgement.

We don't have it, never had it, so enough of meaningless talking and plain bullsh*t. What's the point of discussing anything with a colored picture book?

[myata]

12 hours ago, CdnFox said:

It would almost certainly lead to the break up of Canada

The status quo will break it up as soon as the exports dough will dry out. Looks like we're out of options here. Change is not possible is rarely a great strategy in the evolution. There's that ten million old crab and that's about it.

[August1991]

On 12/14/2023 at 5:30 AM, myata said:

Enough of that nonsense, already. In this age, and century a government cannot be democratic unless it is supported by the majority of voters. No mambo jumbo voodoo moodoo fancy counting. Votes. Every one of them is counted and counts. Simple. The right and the one way, only.

....

Myata,

You don't understand life, or even the universe.

I recommend that you first learn calculus.

Then, read Tolstoi's War and Peace.

Finally, understand the Central Limit Theorem.

And at the very end, read Pasternak's Doktor Zhivago.

=====

To me, the pre-1914 European world was good, civilised.

Then the lights went out.

 

[myata]

And the example south of the border is the best and strongest argument against FPTP. Factual too.

Extreme partisan division; an absolute loss of integrity and principle; the power for power only sake; endless power games only to get more power; dysfunction, division down to paralysis of will and act.

All of this and more comes in the package with FPTP. Just wait.

[August1991]

18 minutes ago, myata said:

And the example south of the border is the best and strongest argument against FPTP...

On the contrary, our neighbour to the south has a federal Constitution - each State is sovereign, and sends delegates to decide federal issues.

And their system has worked - despite, uh, one bloody civil war - for over two centuries. 

Edited December 18, 2023 by August1991

[August1991]

Since 1600 or so - even before, we Canadians largely get along. Peacefully.

Despite our disagreements, few of us get killed.

 

[myata]

6 hours ago, August1991 said:

we Canadians largely get along. Peacefully.

Up until 1980, the population of the country was under 25 million, possessing the resources of a quarter of the world. Stuck up in the far corner of the world, protected by a great neighbor against all threats. Still failed to convert the riches to a strong basis for a lasting broad prosperity, with cracks coming out in real time. Hardly an achievement to boast about, in any objective view. And the entrenched, isolated from the society political system was not the last factor in this outcome, certainly.

[myata]

Representative democracy in general, if not kept current and functional by active citizens may tend to produce detached governments that rule on behalf of the citizens increasingly for themselves, as a corporation and personally, as opposed to the country. FPTP exacerbates this problem to an enormous extent, creating isolated elites shelled from the outside reality to focus on their interests, not those of the society. At some point, certainly and unavoidably, any benefits of it will be outweighed by bureaucratic inefficiency; self-involvement and indulgence; overconsumption of resources with little positive outcome if any; rigidity and eventually, a systemic crisis and paralysis of public governance. Quite possibly in Canada we're approaching this phase even now.

[CdnFox]

17 minutes ago, myata said:

Representative democracy in general, if not kept current and functional by active citizens may tend to produce detached governments that rule on behalf of the citizens increasingly for themselves, as a corporation and personally, as opposed to the country. FPTP exacerbates this problem to an enormous extent, creating isolated elites shelled from the outside reality to focus on their interests, not those of the society. At some point, certainly and unavoidably, any benefits of it will be outweighed by bureaucratic inefficiency; self-involvement and indulgence; overconsumption of resources with little positive outcome if any; rigidity and eventually, a systemic crisis and paralysis of public governance. Quite possibly in Canada we're approaching this phase even now.

The first part is true  -  any democratic model fails when the voters become complacent and they always tend towards complacency.

The rest isn't. FPTP actually helps resist this. It makes gov'ts more directly responsible to the people - you want power, then you need a clean win.

The other various models allow representatives to hide behind the infrastructure of the gov't and it's hard to hold one party accountable for anything.  It promotes fringe groups. It encourages parties to grandstand and form alliances rather than do whats best for the people.

Hell - we've seen that with the current system and the minority govts'.  It is not healthy.

THe best model is a FPTP model with an engaged and non tribal citizenship who's willing to hold parties to account.

[myata]

9 hours ago, CdnFox said:

The first part is true  -  any democratic model fails when the voters become complacent and they always tend towards complacency.

There are democratic models that prompt and encourage citizens to participate.

9 hours ago, CdnFox said:

FPTP actually helps resist this. It makes gov'ts more directly responsible to the people - you want power, then you need a clean win.

This just isn't true. Doesn't correspond to the reality. One duo twin is always guaranteed to win in FPTP. Winning most often or almost always is not the product of smart policy, connection to the public but a screw up of the other power twin that gets to rule with no accountability until next to everyone comes to hate it. Yes a guaranteed win, you just wait long enough until your buddy in power has screwed up one time too many and how does that stimulate anything, and could. If one could come up with a near-democratic system that makes less sense, both logically and practically it would be a feat of imagination and vision.

In a minimally developed democratic society FPTP doesn't make any sense. It worked here (but no assurances for the future of course) only because its deep and far backwaters where nothing ever happens; and because it's parochial traditionalist backwaters that firmly believes that it can survive without improving and adapting.

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, myata said:

There are democratic models that prompt and encourage citizens to participate.

No there are not, unless you 'prompt' them by forcing them by law which isn't democracy
 

Quote

This just isn't true. Doesn't correspond to the reality. One duo twin is always guaranteed to win in FPTP.

You're stupid enough to say that while we're in the middle of our second minority gov't in a row? And the vast majority of our gov's since 2000 have been minorities? And often a 3 way balance of power against a 4th party? Would you mind being a little less obviously stupid, the conversation will flow better.

FPTP is very easily the best and most effective model we currently have. Period full stop.  All the other models reduce the effective democratic representation and discourage participation over time. They lead to grandstanding and posturing over results. The minimize the fringe and encourage parties with larger tents that incorporate a wider more cohesive political view.  And with 3 or 4 (depending on location) major parties to vote for, ALL of which have held the balance of power at one point or another, there is more than ample opportunity for expression and any more just dilutes that.

And at the end of the day a country needs to have one vision and one leadership to move it forward.  Management by 'committee' is the worst kind of management.  As the joke goes - a camel is a horse designed by a committee.

[Queenmandy85]

So, Myata, just what Government service are you not receiving? Is there a particular service you would like to see, that is possible for the government to provide to you but is missing from your life?

[CdnFox]

6 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

So, Myata, just what Government service are you not receiving? Is there a particular service you would like to see, that is possible for the government to provide to you but is missing from your life?

Well lets make a list.

Airports.

Passports.

international trade for our businesses

immigration that gets people in and properly focuses on our country's needs so we have the services we require.

A military.  What little we have has been given away and now they can't even recruit people,

Safety. With the new 'catch and release' law in 2017 repeat offenders have shot throught he roof and violent crime is radically up.  So a justice system would be great.

I suppose i could go on.

And we'll get that with a change in gov't but right now two parties band together to deny us that. That is the weakness of a 'committee' style gov't.

Instead we'll elect a majority and they'll get the job done, Pretty simple.

[Queenmandy85]

25 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Well lets make a list.

Actually, I was asking Myata. No disrespect to you. As you say, your needs will all be addressed in 18 months. Myata's concerns are more nebulous while yours are specific. I am curious to know what Myata specifically wants. 

 

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Actually, I was asking Myata. No disrespect to you. As you say, your needs will all be addressed in 18 months. Myata's concerns are more nebulous while yours are specific. I am curious to know what Myata specifically wants. 

 

My mistake, mis read that.

[myata]

11 hours ago, CdnFox said:

No there are not

Ignorance is not a virtue; nor is it a valid argument

11 hours ago, CdnFox said:

You're stupid enough to say that while we're in the middle of our second minority gov't in a row?

And you're blind or dumb patently to not notice how much real difference the tricks and whistles made in the real world. Can't have a meaningful discussion with a picture book.

Edited December 21, 2023 by myata

[myata]

11 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

So, Myata, just what Government service are you not receiving?

This is a wrong question, and you didn't even notice! Which is explainable of course from the perspective of a quasi-democratic governor who is accountable for nothing and can get and do anything, or very close.

If Africa they get those same "services". Maybe without the GST on a tax "service" though. So what did you try to prove?

Edited December 21, 2023 by myata

[Queenmandy85]

8 hours ago, myata said:

This is a wrong question, and you didn't even notice! Which is explainable of course from the perspective of a quasi-democratic governor who is accountable for nothing and can get and do anything, or very close.

If Africa they get those same "services". Maybe without the GST on a tax "service" though. So what did you try to prove?

It may be the wrong question but it is my question. Could you please explain in real simple terms, without evasion, what government services you are not receiving that you need or desire? You bang on with incoherant language without actually saying anything. Just for once, can you articulate in simple terms for people like me, what is your actual specific concern?

 

[CdnFox]

11 hours ago, myata said:

Ignorance is not a virtue; nor is it a valid argument

 

Then stop using it.

Quote

And you're blind or dumb patently to not notice how much real difference the tricks and whistles made in the real world. Can't have a meaningful discussion with a picture book.

This from the man who can't even formulate a complete sentance. Because we can! What?

But go ahead - list the democratic models that you have in mind that achieve that over time.  Go on. I could use a good laugh.

Got nothing?  Thought so.

[myata]

15 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Could you please explain in real simple terms, without evasion, what government services you are not receiving that you need or desire?

It's been explained on numerous occasions and I'm not going to waste my time again why would anyone? Can't argue with a picture book.

15 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

You bang on with incoherant language without actually saying anything

Playing dumb is not an argument either. In Africa they have those same services, perhaps on a comparable level of quality and efficiency. Does it make it a modern G7 democracy? Healthcare is in a permanent crisis as half of the departments. Is this state compatible with being a top-tier modern democracy?

12 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Got nothing?  Thought so.

Can't argue with a picture book. No interest either. And no apologies.

[myata]

A silly and pointless pillow fight of entitled political monopolies once so many years for a democratic facade. The better of the worst, always, as the best democratic model, foreva. Same ones, always, a vertigo of meaningless faces on the same permanent foundation: "we do what we like and you can do nothing. Just watch us".

Yaaaaawn, to the teeth. Keep snoring. Surprise-free awakening is never guaranteed.

Edited December 22, 2023 by myata

[OftenWrong]

5 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

the ...

You've simply forgetten that good, auld, adage my pappy used to say. "When in forums, remember to wear your boots, laddie. Wear your booooottttsss".

Edited December 22, 2023 by OftenWrong

[CdnFox]

10 hours ago, myata said:

It's been explained on numerous occasions and I'm not going to waste my time again why would anyone? Can't argue with a picture book.

So in other words no you can't and in fact there isn't any.  Sounds about right

Quote

Playing dumb is not an argument either.

Nobody thinks you're playing.

Quote

In Africa they have those same services, perhaps on a comparable level of quality and efficiency.

Nope not even close.

Quote

 Healthcare is in a permanent crisis as half of the departments. Is this state compatible with being a top-tier modern democracy?

You are conflating two seperate issues.  We have the healthcare that the people wanted.  If there's a problem with it then it's a problem with the people, not the democracy.

Quote

Can't argue with a picture book. No interest either. And no apologies.

Can't discuss things with a m0r0n who cannot even articulate his own thoughts. You're an embarrassment.

So you insist that FPTP is terrible but cannot explain why, cannot explain how other models would produce better results or would create a more effective governing body or better reflect the combined will of the people, but somehow it's everyone else's fault.

 

FPTP is an imperfect model, but it is the best model we have. While our exising system could use some minor tweakes it's better than all the other models that have been proposed.