Canada's Quality of Life has Fallen from 9th in the world (2015) to 27th (mid 2023)

[CdnFox]

Just like the title says.

Numbeo is the world's largest database on cost of living and quality of life data.

In 2015, when justin took over,  we were at number 9 on the top ten countries in the world for quality of life

By the end of 2022 we had fallen to 23.

https://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.jsp?title=2022

Midway through 2023  we've fallen to 27.

https://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.jsp?title=2023-mid

 

Now in case you think i'm cherry picking,  it's been a fairlly steady downslope.  2019 for example before covid we'd slid to 18.

Before 2015, for several years we were at number 7.  So it's not like 2015 was some unusually good year

 

Under justin trudeau's watch, this country's quality of life has tanked, and is continuing it's downward spiral. Croatia and Quatar have better qualities of life than we do.

 

I'm curious how the usual liberal defenders here blow off THIS proof that Justin and the liberal party have been the worst thing for Canada ever.

[Zeitgeist]

Again, when even “good” wages can no longer allow you to buy a home and have good living standards, we’re in trouble.  When “good” living standards still mean you have to sit in traffic for hours each day and government services are stretched, it’s easy to see how quality of life drops.   If the social safety net incentivizes inactivity and dependence on the state, and if taxes and regulation make it cumbersome to do business and hard to get ahead, we’re in trouble.

Edited August 27, 2023 by Zeitgeist

[CdnFox]

6 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Again, when even “good” wages can no longer allow you to buy a home and have good living standards, we’re in trouble.  When “good” living standards still mean you have to sit in traffic for hours each day and government services are stretched, it’s easy to see how quality of life drops.   If the social safety net incentivizes inactivity and dependence on the state, and if taxes and regulation make it cumbersome to do business and hard to get ahead, we’re in trouble.

Well we're in trouble

So it's not just in the kids' imaginations, they realy don't have is as good as their predecessors.  Their mistake is thinking that somehow this happened under the boomer's watch.

In fact - it's happening right under the millennial's watch. Millennials are the largest voting block. They have been since the 2019 election, just a few years after this slide started to get really bad.

If they don't get off their asses and start making good decisions they'll be lucky if they own their own tent and have food 3 times a day on a good income pretty soon.

[Zeitgeist]

I think gutting Guilbeault’s carbon tax and regulation apparatus would immediately lower the cost of living by about 5-10%, and result in lowering interest rates by 1% due to the resulting lower inflation. After that, give a green light to creative solutions to the housing crisis.  Of course more can be done to fight climate change than the Liberals did if we incorporate green tech into the building code and invite tech businesses to the table through deregulation and tax breaks rather than subsidies.

Musk should build a massive modular housing plant here.  Boxabi could crank out 200,000 units to Ontario alone immediately and still have a year long waiting list for units.  

Edited August 27, 2023 by Zeitgeist

[myata]

Except this is a system fault, accumulating systemic problems and swapping a bobblehead to avoid necessary and long overdue reforms will do nothing to fix it. Just watch.

[Zeitgeist]

13 minutes ago, myata said:

Except this is a system fault, accumulating systemic problems and swapping a bobblehead to avoid necessary and long overdue reforms will do nothing to fix it. Just watch.

I’m just giving one example of how deregulation of land use/zoning and housing supply can unleash huge volumes housing supply at much lower costs.  Imagine if we changed “the system” so that environmental assessments could be streamlined on abandoned or unused commercial and industrial sites.   It could be done safely with small carbon footprints.  It means tearing down a lot of gatekeepers. Keep the bureaucrats away as much as possible.  Let users and businesses find solutions without creating more expensive fluffy government administrative jobs that slow our productivity. Get government out of the way.  

Edited August 27, 2023 by Zeitgeist

[myata]

49 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

It could be done safely with small carbon footprints.  It means tearing down a lot of gatekeepers. Keep the bureaucrats away as much as possible.

In an ideal world, sure. But here, the government suddenly drops half a million new housing demand in a single year. Because it can and no one can do anything. No. Fixing papers won't fix that I'm afraid. One has to change the system, where government would be responsible, accountable and work for the society and not the other way around.

[CdnFox]

10 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

I’m just giving one example of how deregulation of land use/zoning and housing supply can unleash huge volumes housing supply at much lower costs.  Imagine if we changed “the system” so that environmental assessments could be streamlined on abandoned or unused commercial and industrial sites.   It could be done safely with small carbon footprints.  It means tearing down a lot of gatekeepers. Keep the bureaucrats away as much as possible.  Let users and businesses find solutions without creating more expensive fluffy government administrative jobs that slow our productivity. Get government out of the way.  

Sure.  I mean, SOME oversight is not bad but right now its' adding massive dollars and years of time to developments.

So take that one step further - hey mr developer, we'll free up all this industrial land for super fast track development at low costs - IF you promise to develop the whole site into homes immediately  and not do it slowly in phases as you sell them.

Now homes get build fast and some will sit empty for a short time, but finally we'd be building a little ahead of need.  And it's still worth it for the developer because they save enough money that even if there's a delay or small price drop when selling them they still make profit.

there's ways to do this. It just takes a little encouragement and thinking.

 

[Moonbox]

On 8/27/2023 at 4:19 AM, CdnFox said:

Now in case you think i'm cherry picking,  it's been a fairlly steady downslope.  2019 for example before covid we'd slid to 18.

You're using a poor source.  Getting your stats from Numbeo is like getting your news from a combination of wikipedia and rotten tomatoes.  

https://www.thelocal.se/20170117/how-one-swede-made-a-city-the-worlds-most-dangerous-to-expose-fake-stats#:~:text=“Numbeo should hardly be considered,a day%2C” Trulsson warned.

“Numbeo should hardly be considered stats, it’s more like reviews. Anyone, anywhere in the world can change the data, as many times as they want. Completely anonymously. I managed to make Lund the world’s ‘most dangerous city’ in less than a day,” Trulsson warned.

 

[CdnFox]

31 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

You're using a poor source. 

 

Ahhh yessss - the whining battlecry of the left whenever they hear a fact they don't like.

Then you present a bias source claiming it's a bias source.

And btw - wikipedia and rotten tomatoes are both considered to be fairly reliable sources of information.

However even if you don't like their particular methods - they are at least a constant.  So - if we go up or down it does tend to reflect our real world standing.

Justin has driven our quality of life far lower with respect to other countries than it's been in many many decades. 

[Moonbox]

26 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Ahhh yessss - the whining battlecry of the left whenever they hear a fact they don't like.

If the source is worthless, then it's not actually a fact.  ?

A crowd-sourced database than can be grossly manipulated by a single person is a garbage source of information.  One guy was able to spam the site and make his city the most dangerous in the world, according to your source.  

I do believe Justin Trudeau has hurt our quality of life and standard of living, and set us back ~10 years just like his father.  Numbeo just can't tell us anything useful about it.

Edited August 28, 2023 by Moonbox

[CdnFox]

Just now, Moonbox said:

If the source is worthless, then it's not actually a fact.  ?

And it's not worthless - so it's not an actual fact.

And one person claiming they managed to corrupt the database without proof of any kind does not make it useless.  You literally just claimed a large well recognized soruce that is often cited is highly suspect - while a single random guy on the internet who made a claim with no proof or evidence at all is 100 percent to be believed.

It's is in fact a respected source.  It's not meant to be precise - but QoL is not a precise measure at the best of times. It is often defined differently.  But it is a constant measure, they don't change their methods or definitions over time and it produces reliable results.

But hey - if you've got another source that shows year over year changes in QoL in various countries using a consistent method that shows a DIFFERENT story then present it and we'll compare what they say.

Otherwise - just more leftist whining.  If you don't like the fact - then attack the source of the fact.

 

[eyeball]

On 8/27/2023 at 1:19 AM, CdnFox said:

I'm curious how the usual liberal defenders here blow off THIS proof that Justin and the liberal party have been the worst thing for Canada ever.

Speaking for myself maybe it's because my own quality of life has improved, especially economically.

That said I recognize the increasing threats to that but most of those threats have been developing for years.

It was obvious to me decades ago for example that we would suffer economically as a country from shipping our manufacturing base to China. Capitalists championed that to such a degree that naysayers were actually dismissed a commies. Nowadays people like you blame the left for being the champions of globalism that resulted in our dependency on authoritarian dictators. Nowadays Canadian companies depend on China to supply us with slaves. 

Its probably the most grotesque example of playing rubber and glue with an issue bar none. Well maybe notwithstanding your attempts to make Hitler and Nazism seem like a left wing progressive phenomenon.

?

 

[Moonbox]

3 hours ago, CdnFox said:

And one person claiming they managed to corrupt the database without proof of any kind does not make it useless.  You literally just claimed a large well recognized soruce that is often cited is highly suspect - while a single random guy on the internet who made a claim with no proof or evidence at all is 100 percent to be believed.

How else did Lund end up being the most dangerous city in the world according to Numbeo, above places like Caracas?  

If the methodology is fatally flawed to begin with, the data it provides is worthless.  You're quoting an online review aggregator where anyone can review anything (North Koreans can rate Canada is unsafe, if they feel like it).  The site puts Serbia, Bosnia, Turkey and Jordan higher on the safety index than Canada.  If these don't raise red flags for you, nothing will, but nobody would be surprised this got past you.  ?

 

 

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, eyeball said:

Speaking for myself maybe it's because my own quality of life has improved, especially economically.

That said I recognize the increasing threats to that but most of those threats have been developing for years.

 

it's true that nothing happens overnight as a rule. THe seeds for much of this were planted in the past - we stopped building enough homes in around 2000 as far as i can tell - it just took a long time for the problem to become serious.

Quote

It was obvious to me decades ago for example that we would suffer economically as a country from shipping our manufacturing base to China.

We never had much of a manufacturing base and what we did have primarily involved cars  - which we still have.  I think you're thinking of america.  What industry did CANADA turn over to the chinese?

 

Quote

Capitalists championed that to such a degree that naysayers were actually dismissed a commies. Nowadays people like you blame the left for being the champions of globalism that resulted in our dependency on authoritarian dictators.

None of that is true.  Capitalists and "Commies" alike agreed that it was best to keep china out of russia's influence and the best way was  to make them dependent on western markets instead of russian ones.  Which was arguably still a good idea. 

Quote

Nowadays Canadian companies depend on China to supply us with slaves.

ROFLMAO - they really don't   Sorry.  That's just pure fiction  

[Nexii]

So why are few homes built? I think part is that we only take in white collar immigrants, and generally tradeskill schools don't get the funding and attention that universities do

Another part of it probably is that we live in a big country, so we're averse to high-density housing projects. We say homes but what we really need are large apartment buildings or modular homes built at scale

Edited August 28, 2023 by Nexii

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

How else did Lund end up being the most dangerous city in the world according to Numbeo, above places like Caracas? 

 

I looked into that.  Which you obviosuly did not.

Turns out - the CRIME database operates entirely differently than the Quality Of Life database. Did you know that?

IT's totally different and seperate from the QoL index, but nobody would be surprised this got past you.  ?

Further - he did it when the crime database was brand new and there was almost NO responses. With VERY low participation yet it was possible to skew it. You would not find it so easy to do that now.

And the QoL database does have user input but it's manually added to the database and is only part of how the database gets info.  So grossly exaggerated figures would not be possible, and users only make up a portion of the data.

That's why you don't believe a single guy on the internet when he says something.

The database is recognized world wide as being a useful too and the company that maintains it sells it's work to end users who obviously feel the data is reliable enough.

Anything else? Ya done looking like an !diot?

[CdnFox]

4 minutes ago, Nexii said:

So why are few homes built? I think part is that we only take in white collar immigrants, and generally tradeskill schools don't get the funding and attention that universities do

 

That's not the problem.  THat might BE a problem if we get serious and really hit capacity. But in fact - as of this month thousands of construction people are being laid off and the jobs are going away as companies reduce construction.

The short short answer is that a) it takes too much red tape to build a home, and b) the way our tax and other systems are designed it punishes developers for building homes ahead of need - so they are always building the number of homes we needed last year or the year before, never what we need next year or even this year.  Until we change that there will never be enough homes in a growing population and the situaton gets worse as our population expands.

To be clear we say it's an 'immigrant' issue but its' not - its a 'homes vs population growth' issue. But right now all our population growth comes from immigrants so it feels like an immigrant issue.

 

[impartialobserver]

If Numbeo is really just an aggregator of subjective survey opinions then I do agree that it should be not taken as untouchable gospel. Is it garbage? I would say not. With most topics.. you have to filter things out and take a bit from this and a bit from that in order to arrive at the truth 

[Nexii]

Yea a lot has to be overregulation (I'd say in a lot of government things but that's an aside). You could make a lot building large buildings and renting them out at current prices. Clearly the market isn't self-correcting

We are in such housing debt that short of centrally planned mass housing, it's only going to get worse

[CdnFox]

1 minute ago, impartialobserver said:

If Numbeo is really just an aggregator of subjective survey opinions then I do agree that it should be not taken as untouchable gospel. Is it garbage? I would say not. With most topics.. you have to filter things out and take a bit from this and a bit from that in order to arrive at the truth 

Just to clarify - it's CRIME database is just an aggregate of surveys

It's Quality of Life database is not - it uses both user input and other sources and the user input is manually entered into the database so obviously fraudulent entries can be dismissed.

I agree that means  the crime database is a little more quesitonable - but probably still a fairly accurate depiction of how people see their country.

THe QoL database is probably a lot more accurate. Still not perfect and still based substantially on user inputs which could be faked but much more filtered and much less reliant.

Dismissing THAT one is much harder.

Moonbox isn't interested in the truth, he just wants to make it look like the liberals didn't do that badly so he's attacking the source.  He would have been better off arguing that it's not that we're falling but that some other countries are improving or something - the source is pretty good.

 

[CdnFox]

5 minutes ago, Nexii said:

Yea a lot has to be overregulation (I'd say in a lot of government things but that's an aside). You could make a lot building large buildings and renting them out at current prices. Clearly the market isn't self-correcting

 

The market is self correcting, but the regulation prevents it from doing so.  For example - it takes 2 -3 years from the day a builder says "I'd like to build on that property i think" to when the city or authority says "ok, here's the last permit  - go ahead.".   The market is always 3 years behind in that respect - and builders take caution knowing that things can change between now and then .

So - they build in phases. They sell a phase before it's finished, then start on the next phase and sell that while they complete construction of the first phase. 

And if they finish building before they sell they have to pay extra taxes - and strata fees to the strata - and it makes it VERY expensive to build before all the units are sold. So they never have more homes than buyers - which keeps prices extra high because demand is never quite met.

That makes building large apartment buildings somewhat probelmatic.  Townhouses or low rise apartments are better For  many reasons in most cases.  And even there - they never build ahead of need, always based on the needs of a few years ago and always with caution.

 

We need to make it worth it for them to build more houses faster even if that means some are finished before they are sold.  In the old days a developer build a house then sold it - now that NEVER happens and it's killing us.

 

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

How else

Blah blah blah - yes, we've already disucssed why that was a stupid thing for you to say.

But - while it's obvious that the source was perfectly legitimate, i went out and found another source for you that's different. Lets see what they say

https://www.thestar.com/business/very-concerning-canada-s-standard-of-living-is-lagging-behind-its-peers-report-finds-what/article_1576a5da-ffe8-5a38-8c81-56d6b035f9ca.html

And the report

https://economics.td.com/ca-falling-behind-standard-of-living-curve

 

Now we'll see the true.. Oh crap it says the same thing.

Basically we've fallen to 15th. From 3rd.  According to them.

And what year did this start? Lets look at the graph. Lets see ... 2013, 2014, 2015... Uh ohhhh. There it is.

Businesses literaly gave up investing in people right when trudeau got elected and never went back.

So there you go.  Two different ways of measuring QoL - two different sources -  basically the same take on it. We have dropped radically in QoL since trudeau took over and the future looks bad.

 

Well done lefties - this is the future your policies have given us

[Moonbox]

17 hours ago, CdnFox said:

I looked into that.  Which you obviosuly did not.

Turns out - the CRIME database operates entirely differently than the Quality Of Life database. Did you know that?

The crime index isn't a database.  It's a review aggregator.  It's also part of the quality of life index.  You obviously didn't know that, cluelessly bloviating as you do.  ?

[CdnFox]

9 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

The crime index isn't a database.  It's a review aggregator.

An aggregator USES a database.  It's a database of all responses and replies and the software draws upon that.    So of COURSE it's a database - there's nothing to aggregate without the information in the database. What did you THINK they stored the data in? Tupperware? LOLOL

Tell me you know nothing of computers without telling me   

And i notice that was your ONLY complaint - you ignored the fact that the QoL is seperate and handled  entirely differently, you ignored the fact that their findings are corroborated by OTHER completely DIFFERENT models.

Justin trudeau has dropped our relative quality of life from about number 7 to number 27  since taking office - and  your complete lack of understanding of how computers work won't change that

 

And i see you're back to your old trick of "when you realize you're wrong and made a complete fool of yourself, try to deflect by focusing the argument on one tiny detail like whether or not a database of information is called an 'aggregator' or a 'database of information'