The election prospects

[CdnFox]

On 9/1/2023 at 7:56 PM, eyeball said:

The US had also wasted and disposed of over 85 million doses by May

So?  Nice try to distract.

Wish we had some to waste at that time - oh but we didn't becuase justin SCREWED UP.  So our people were left unprotected and dying for months.

As to the rest of your blather - just admissions that i'm right and trying to excuse it.  We were MONTHS behind.  We would eventually catch up but that's because other countries had eveyrthing they needed, 

And on top of it all we had to steal back from third world countries to make that happen

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55932997

 

Bottom line - if trudeau had invested in the CANADIAN company who had a plan we'd have had a home made supply on time - OR if he HAD NOT invested in China and had bought from countries who DID invest in their own sources EARLIER instead of waiting till the chinese deal fell through...  then we'd have had more people vaccinated sooner and fewer deaths.

Why are you trying to defend the fact his decisions killed people?

[eyeball]

36 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Why are you trying to defend the fact his decisions killed people?

I'm not, I'm simply doubting you, specifically your assertion Trudeau killed thousands of Canadians. And you haven't provided any reasons why I shouldn't.

The only reason you're making this hooey up is because you were upset by the article I posted about a report on vaccine misinformation and subsequent hesitancy that caused hundreds of thousands of COVID cases, several thousand hospitalizations and 2800 deaths.

You're simply trying to play rubber and glue with it.

You also don't seem too fussy over research and reports that indicate conservative governments are linked to a greater number of cases, hospitalizations and deaths.

So do you think you're fairly typical of the sort of person Poilievre will listen to and represent when he's in power?

[CdnFox]

36 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I'm not, I'm simply doubting you, specifically your assertion Trudeau killed thousands of Canadians. And you haven't provided any reasons why I shouldn't.

 

You very clearly are - rather desperately trying to defend him.

And I and others have given you all the evidence required. You'd have to be a complete trudeau fanatic to deny it.  At best you could quibble with the number of dead - but unless you're going to claim that the vaccine in the early days didn't save lives, then it's undeniable that trudeau's delay cost lives.

Is that your claim at this point? That the vaccine wasn't very effective in saving lives?

[myata]

Canadian imitation of democratic politics has come down to being all about talking, 99.9%. Just check the picture: do you see the better one out of the mediocre at best, more likely loudmouth as much as incompetent? Will a bobblehead with a mouth magically fix deep and longstanding problems of the country? Of focus on its prime objectives: stick to the trough while bashing the opponent, show-style inflated stick?

No, you don't have to participate in the mindless show that for a while now serves only its own interests, far from those of the country. 

Photo: The Hill

 

Edited September 3, 2023 by myata

[Queenmandy85]

I apologize. I made an off-hand reference to the success all Canadian governments and parties achieved in preventing many plague deaths and the thread became mired in a fruitless agurement over vaccines that was already exhausted months ago. My understanding is this thread is supposed to be discussing the next election.  Let us do so in a manner that is respectful to all of the people who make the personal sacrifices required, in order to serve the country. We can disagree with policies and ideologies without giving into personal attacks on people we disagree with. 

Let's aspire to debate with empathy and courtesy. Good manners are essential in civil discourse.

Edited September 3, 2023 by Queenmandy85
Punctuation

[myata]

57 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Good manners are essential in civil discourse.

Openness and responsibility as well, no? From that perspective, the daily circus period show as an exemplar of the politics is anything but. Like, the near perfect opposite.

[eyeball]

10 hours ago, CdnFox said:

You very clearly are - rather desperately trying to defend him.

And I and others have given you all the evidence required. You'd have to be a complete trudeau fanatic to deny it.  At best you could quibble with the number of dead - but unless you're going to claim that the vaccine in the early days didn't save lives, then it's undeniable that trudeau's delay cost lives.

I don't doubt there were lives lost to mistakes it's just that in this case it was an honest one and China screwed us not Trudeau.  Not to mention China's vaccine wasn't as good.  No doubt you'd be whining even louder if we'd wound up making the deal - how many hundreds of thousands of deaths would you'd be claiming as a result of having acquired a deficient vaccine?  You'd have to argue vaccines do work if that were the case don't you think?  But if you did that then your buddies would think you'd gone soft and call you a lefty. Oh noes! 

In any case I've made it abundantly clear that I think Trudeau should have been impeached, recalled, fired or whatever way back following the Lavalin fiasco. Hardly a defense.

Quote

Is that your claim at this point? That the vaccine wasn't very effective in saving lives

No it was clearly very effective. The report on vaccine misinformation I provided gives even more evidence of the  effectiveness of vaccine.  Speaking of effectiveness take a look at the bullshit qualities of your criticisms. They clearly suck.

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

I apologize. I made an off-hand reference to the success all Canadian governments and parties achieved in preventing many plague deaths and the thread became mired in a fruitless agurement over vaccines that was already exhausted months ago. My understanding is this thread is supposed to be discussing the next election.  Let us do so in a manner that is respectful to all of the people who make the personal sacrifices required, in order to serve the country. We can disagree with policies and ideologies without giving into personal attacks on people we disagree with. 

Let's aspire to debate with empathy and courtesy. Good manners are essential in civil discourse.

Unless I'm mistaken the criticisms levelled against politicians are to be taken as tacit support for other politicians.  I take the view that when the quality of the criticism is questionable it says more about the sort of leadership you can expect from the politicians that critic supports.

I think that behooves politicians to come up with a better program and get their supporters to get on the same page.    

Edited September 3, 2023 by eyeball

[Queenmandy85]

In the back of Mr. Poilievre's mind is the concern about peaking too early. Riding high in the polls is always a nice position, but it is where he will want to be two years from now. That is a long time to sustain momentum. Things get in the way. As Prime Minister MacMillan said of the challenges he faced, "Events, dear boy, events."

[CdnFox]

7 hours ago, eyeball said:

I don't doubt there were lives lost to mistakes it's just that in this case it was an honest one and China screwed us not Trudeau.

There was nothing particularly 'honest' about the mistake. We could have had our own in country solution but he didn't even want to talk to them - despite them being extremely respected on the world stage.  In fact a couple of the other companies had people who, although they were very careful not to critisize the gov't. wondered why were weren't making use of those guys.

So - why didn't we? Why did we fund a chinese company with a montreal business man who owned it, instead of a canadian company. That just happened to be in alberta.

In any case - we seem to at the point where we both agree a number of people died due to Trudeau's choices.  We can disagree as to how good those decisions were, but at this point we should be able to agree that regardless if it was 'accident' or 'incompetence' or putting his own interests first that caused it, he did NOT handle the covid response very well.

 

 

[eyeball]

3 hours ago, CdnFox said:

In any case - we seem to at the point where we both agree a number of people died due to Trudeau's choices.  We can disagree as to how good those decisions were, but at this point we should be able to agree that regardless if it was 'accident' or 'incompetence' or putting his own interests first that caused it, he did NOT handle the covid response very well.

Not very many people did anywhere. That said I think the fact Trudeau wasn't Trump when COVID hit will come to be regarded as his most lasting legacy. Probably his only one.

Didn't even George W Bush say something to the effect "I guess I'm looking pretty good now"?  I bet that must have stung.

[myata]

We need to grow up past the mental age of two and understand, and admit that a bad choice is a bad choice and that's the end of the conundrum. The third option. Nothing good can be extracted from it.

[CdnFox]

15 hours ago, eyeball said:

Not very many people did anywhere. That said I think the fact Trudeau wasn't Trump when COVID hit will come to be regarded as his most lasting legacy. Probably his only one.

Not very many people died of covid?  Well - i guess some people believe that. I think it might have been a few.  Especially in the beginning.

And if your point is trump looked a million times better then yeah.  Sure.  Trudeau was far worse by comparison.

Trump said stupid things but his actual actions were pretty good for the most part. He got lightspeed up and running, he secured masks for all his people, he got the distribution systems set up and they were vaccinating a million people a day by the end of december and it had it was getting more and more each week as per their scaled plan.

Justin refused to shut our borders because it was racist.  He told people not to wear masks. Then he gave our masks to the chinese. Then told us to wear masks.  He  taught us to hate our neighbours if they didn't trust the vaccine.  He screwed up the CERB and other programs and overspent on them by billions to people and companies who didn't need it. Trudeau made our supply chains worse.

So yeah - his big legacy is going to be - "he screwed up covid so bad he makes trump look good"

[myata]

Reading a story about Spanish head of soccer federation who screwed up majorly with an unwanted public kiss of a female player. Pretty much everybody tells him you have to resign. Teams, men and female, resign. Regional associations, non-confidence. FIFA, suspension. Criminal investigation, started. Even the government looking for ways to do something.

The guy? Nope. Sorry, but you've got to stick with me. No other choices for, you sorry. But I apologized and promise to improve!

Reminded me of something.. maybe you have seen it somewhere?

[eyeball]

4 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Not very many people died of covid?

No that's not what I said.

 

4 hours ago, CdnFox said:

And if your point is trump looked a million times better then yeah.

No that wasn't my point.

[Queenmandy85]

CdnFox, you seem to have an irrational hatred of Prime Minister Trudeau. As a Conservative, I don't support him. I disagree with his immigration policy, but that aside, the government of which he is a member has not differed that much from his predecessor. Both governments failed to address climate change in any meaningful way, but, like deficits and taxation, in a democratic system, governments are at the mercy of the electorate. Your post indicate to me that you don't understand how government works. 

I really hope I am wrong in saying you hate Trudeau, so perhaps you could say something positive about him. Nobody is all bad or all good. The Prime Minister and the Leader of the opposition are no exception.

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Queenmandy85

[myata]

9 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

the government of which he is a member has not differed that much from his predecessor.

Absolutely. Why would they want to be different, what would be the incentive, in the race of the mediocre?

10 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

in a democratic system, governments are at the mercy of the electorate

They are also responsible and accountable, and not in a picture book for a few weeks but always. Some difference, there with an imitation democracy.

[Queenmandy85]

41 minutes ago, myata said:

 

53 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

the government of which he is a member has not differed that much from his predecessor.

Absolutely. Why would they want to be different, what would be the incentive, in the race of the mediocre?

 

Right. If it isn't broken, don't fix it. If it works, don't mess with it.

[myata]

Just now, Queenmandy85 said:

If it works, don't mess with it.

What works? The salary and the pension?

[CdnFox]

16 hours ago, eyeball said:

No that's not what I said.

That is what you said.  Did you mean to say something else? I realize that keeping your story straight while you're trying to defend Trudeau can be hard - but either the vaccines worked in the beginning and therefore the months long delay cost lives OR the vaccine wasn't that effective and it made no difference.  You can't have it both ways.

Quote

No that wasn't my point.

Sounded like it was your point - for the reasons i listed as much as trump shot his mouth off looking like a m0ron trying in a ridiculous effort to keep people from panicking - his actual actions were on point.  Trudeau was  the opposite - he screwed up every step of the way, gave away our protective gear, opened our borders, told people not to wear masks then later went back on that, claimed anyone who didn't want to have open flights to china was racists, and later would close all flights to infected countries, delayed our vaccines by months and shot down our efforts to have an in-country supply.  Then he weaponized covid to turn canadians against each other to try to win an election that gave him about the same seat count as when he started.

Trump certainly does look better than your boy. 

[ExFlyer]

On 9/3/2023 at 12:41 PM, Queenmandy85 said:

In the back of Mr. Poilievre's mind is the concern about peaking too early. Riding high in the polls is always a nice position, but it is where he will want to be two years from now. That is a long time to sustain momentum. Things get in the way. As Prime Minister MacMillan said of the challenges he faced, "Events, dear boy, events."

As I have mentioned before, the conservatives have been ahead in the polls the past 3 elections then...the election happens and they lose.

I put no faith in polls this far in advance of the election. It only shows disgruntlement and that can change quickly.

Promise free drugs and a lot of folks will jump on that bandwagon. Or come up with an assisted home ownership program like they did in the 70's and poof, you are in the lead again LOL

Too much can go right or wrong in the next 2 years.

[eyeball]

9 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

That is what you said.  Did you mean to say something else? 

?

[Queenmandy85]

20 hours ago, CdnFox said:

And if your point is trump looked a million times better then yeah.  Sure.  Trudeau was far worse by comparison.

More than twice as many Americans died from covid, per capita, as Canadians. 

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

CdnFox, you seem to have an irrational hatred of Prime Minister Trudeau.

 

This has already been addressed at length.

Of course - as an obvious liberal supporter it's important for you to cast ANYONE who raises legitimate concerns about trudeau as "irrational".  

 So it's only natural for a liberal supporter like you to bring it up again and pretend it was not addressed previously.

People hate what trudeau has done to our country.  In fact - at this point it's looking like more than half of the people hate it. I get that hurts you personally as a liberal and a left winger - but you'd probably better get used to it. Trudeau has horribly damaged this country and it's people and more and more people are feeling betrayed or hurt by him every month according to numerous polls over the last year.

And it's entirely rational for them to feel that way.

As to PP,  peaking early would have been a concern if he climbed in popularity too fast.  The brightest flame burns out first of course.  However -  he's doing  it the right way. His growth in popularity is very slow, very methodical, and continuous. He's building on people's impressions all the time and becoming more and more appealing to them.  He's broadening his base bit by bit and he goes up in the polls every month just a little bit at a time.

That kind of growth tends to last a long long time. And the public now accepts that justin is the reason why their problems are happening, ether because he caused it or because he refuses to deal with it depending on the problem. And the liberals in general are going to wear that stink.

So no -  i don't think PP is worried. I think he'll just keep on building, looking at how to get the next person on board. keeping the people he's got eager for the day he takes over.

 

 

[CdnFox]

2 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

More than twice as many Americans died from covid, per capita, as Canadians. 

Thanks to the individual states reactions.  Like - certain new york politicians who sent people with covid back to nursing homes and hid it for example    Trump doesn't run the states. He runs the fed gov't.

Neither does biden - who was actually in charge during most of those deaths.  Soooo - we blaming him too?

To be fair the us was always going to have more deaths. Population density was not working for them. IF you look at areas of high population density in canada and compare with the us the story is a little different, but it's actually a bit hard to get an apples to apples comparison.  But - that's  a side issue.

But - what trump did do was get the vaccines.  They would not have been developed anywhere near as quick without project lightspeed, Moderna got the money they needed directly and pfizer raised the cash based on trump's signed order guaranteeing purchases worth a certain amount of money as a minimum

He also secured the country's supply of masks. ANd took other steps.

In canada the provincial actions did more to save people than the feds did by far.