The election prospects

[myata]

I would like to vote for the Conservatives (my preferred choice) on one condition only: they bring in meaningful change, the proportional representation.

It is needed; with our entrenched rusty and screeching system we're heading into a social and political dead end. There won't be many more opportunities till its apparent, if not already.

Let's see if they have the responsibility; the sight and the courage to do what needs to be done. Now.

And if they are too comfy and cozy at the two centuries trough; if no let's not look and think until its completely broken, look all is going great only some tweaks and a change of portrait; then I'll have no qualms electing Trudeaus again.

If they take us to the inevitable destination at the quickest pace and the shortest way so be it. It can be the only way to wake us up. If at all possible, already.

[Deluge]

3 minutes ago, myata said:

I would like to vote for the Conservatives (my preferred choice) on one condition only: they bring in meaningful change, the proportional representation.

It is needed; with our entrenched rusty and screeching system we're heading into a social and political dead end. There won't be many more opportunities till its apparent, if not already.

Let's see if they have the responsibility; the sight and the courage to do what needs to be done. Now.

And if they are too comfy and cozy at the two centuries trough; if no let's not look and think until its completely broken, look all is going great only some tweaks and a change of portrait; then I'll have no qualms electing Trudeaus again.

If they take us to the inevitable destination at the quickest pace and the shortest way so be it. It can be the only way to wake us up. If at all possible, already.

We'll need a strong conservative, not another pail carrying RINO for the Left. 

With that, Trump still has to be the guy until someone stronger steps up. 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Deluge

[myata]

20 minutes ago, Deluge said:

With that, Trump

The Lying Clown you mean? Anyway, this is Canadian politics.

[CdnFox]

Proportional representation is one of the worst ideas out there.  It reduces democracy, it does not improve it.

The only people who like it are people on the far left and far right who know there's no chance that they will ever hold real power otherwise.  It also benefits groups like the bloc because it tends to result in minority gov's (not that we have any shortages there this century, most of our gov'ts have been minority).

There's the insane national debt, the affordability crisis, our lack of competitiveness,  the immigration issue, the housing shortage, the military issues -  If that's your 'ONLY reason' for voting conservative, if it's a deal killer if they don't - you're not much of a conservative AND you're not well educated on the subject. 

[Moonbox]

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

Proportional representation is one of the worst ideas out there.  It reduces democracy, it does not improve it.

I agree with it being wrong for Canada, but not necessarily wrong on its own.  In a less geographically and/or ethnically diverse country (like we see in Europe) it can make more sense.  

As a giant country with huge geographical separation and wildly different priorities, it would be lousy.  Make Canada PR and the country would be run by the Greater Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver areas, with the anything in between and outside of that having a greatly diminished voice.    

[CdnFox]

33 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

I agree with it being wrong for Canada, but not necessarily wrong on its own.  In a less geographically and/or ethnically diverse country (like we see in Europe) it can make more sense.  

I stand corrected - i should have caveated my statement with "there may be some areas where it's appropriate'.  It's not evil in and of itself necessarily.

[myata]

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

I agree with it being wrong for Canada, but not necessarily wrong on its own... Make Canada PR and the country would be run by the Greater Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver areas.

Surely this legitimate point can be taken into account by someone who has a brain to think and will to act. But we will be stuck in the worst condition possible indefinitely: without parliamentary parties in the normal sense that people can choose ones that represent their interests out of many; and neither, independent representatives that stand for the people's interests, not those of the Central Office. This has already little to do with modern democracy that requires responsible, transparent and responsive governments. And the vector is all wrong.

Trudeau it is then. Will save us some time and pains, getting to the destination.

[CdnFox]

3 minutes ago, myata said:

But we will be stuck in the worst condition possible indefinitely: without parliamentary parties in the normal sense that people can choose ones that represent their interests out of many;

That is NOT how democracy works.  THat is how RESTAURANTS work - you get a menu and pick what looks tasty. But hat is not how democracy works.

In a DEMOCRACY you either start a party or pick an existing one and then you WORK WITH THAT PARTY  - you go to the policy conventions (or at least talk to the delegates about your ideas), you work with your local rep,  you organize groups to write in and sell your ideas or concerns etc etc etc.

You don't just ask for a smorgasbord and pick what you like and hope for the best.

So if you're unhappy with the choices you have get off yer butt and go work with the parties and with other like minded people.  Organize letter writing campaings, contact your closest local MP for the party that most closely reflects your wishes, get involved.

 

The world is run by those who show up.  Show up.

[Legato]

With PR you will end up with a monkykangorillapig government.  No zoo would take it and the bacon would have a bad taste.

[myata]

45 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

In a DEMOCRACY you either start a party or pick an existing one and then you WORK WITH THAT PARTY  - you go to the policy conventions (or at least talk to the delegates about your ideas), you work with your local rep,  you organize groups to write in and sell your ideas or concerns etc etc etc

No it's you who are confused. In North Korea you're stuck with one default "party" because you don't have any other choice. And in a democracy, you must have a real choice, that's pretty much the definition. The problem here is, whoever was tasked with making a democratic facade for essentially a colonial system never understood or even bothered to think, what it is about. And no one, seemingly, noticed, in two centuries since. No, in a democracy to don't have to go to the blue "party" convention or the red one just because there are no other meaningful choices. You can pick the one that you like, interested in, that supports your interests and causes and can represent you. For real, not only in the pretty picture book.

[CdnFox]

4 minutes ago, myata said:

No it's you who are confused. In North Korea you're stuck with one default "party" because you don't have any other choice. And in a democracy, you must have a real choice, that's pretty much the definition. The problem here is, whoever was tasked with making a democratic facade for essentially a colonial system never understood or even bothered to think, what it is about. And no one, seemingly, noticed, in two centuries since. No, in a democracy to don't have to go to the blue "party" convention or the red one just because there are no other meaningful choices. You can pick the one that you like, interested in, that supports your interests and causes and can represent you. For real, not only in the pretty picture book.

Buddy - you can't even complete a coherent sentance and you think I'M  Confused?

You have a real choice. I'm sorry you can't figure out how the system works but that's not the system's fault.

If you're too stupid to use the system we have, changing to another equally complex system isn't going to help you.

[myata]

45 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

You have a real choice.

Go ahead say it again, hundred more times and make yourself believe it even more ardently. It won't change a thing in the reality of course. But it will knock back some time, nothing uncertain about that.

[CdnFox]

4 minutes ago, myata said:

Go ahead say it again, hundred more times and make yourself believe it even more ardently. It won't change a thing in the reality of course. But it will knock back some time, nothing uncertain about that.

Once was more than enough for sane people.  Only the delusional think otherwise.

If you can't be bothered to lift your delusional ass off the sofa and participate, then changing the system so you can feel better about 'eatin' bon bon's and watching your stories' while the world passes by won't help.

[myata]

3 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

If you can't be bothered to lift your delusional ass off the sofa and participate

Except one isn't obliged to participate in a funny game.. in a democracy.

[CdnFox]

20 minutes ago, myata said:

Except one isn't obliged to participate in a funny game.. in a democracy.

That's literally the very definition of a democracy.  That's what it means for the people to contribute to the decision making.  There can't BE a democracy without people being obliged to participate.

You are woefully uneducated on this subject.  Yes - for it to be a democracy you have to be involved in picking your representative for your area, setting policy for the party or parties you prefer (helping start a new one if need be), and organizing like minded people to lobby the gov't on issues important to you.  That is democracy.

Get up and get involved.

[myata]

55 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

There can't BE a democracy without people being obliged to participate.

That direction of thought will take you far indeed. China, North Korea and Russia all have a form of what they call a democracy, with some, arbitrarily defined "participation". But no though. Something cold doesn't make an ice cream, as anything with "part" and "cipation" it won't make a functional, modern democracy.

I'll vote for who I want from the options I understand and accept, not some mumbo-jumbo ritual. A smart two year old can figure that out by the way, according to studies. There's no obligation to accept the best out of the worst, and just too bad / sad that you're struggling to get it.

[CdnFox]

1 minute ago, myata said:

That direction of thought will take you far indeed. China, North Korea and Russia all have a form of what they call a democracy, with some, arbitrarily defined "participation". But no though. Something cold doesn't make an ice cream, as anything with "part" and "cipation" it won't make a functional, modern democracy.

I'll vote for who I want from the options I understand and accept, not some mumbo-jumbo ritual. A smart two year old can figure that out by the way, according to studies. There's no obligation to accept the best out of the worst, and just too bad / sad that you're struggling to get it.

"the best argument against democracy is a 5 minute conversation with the average voter'.

-Churchill.

 

Way to prove 'em right big guy.  Imagine thinking that democracy shouldn't have participation of the people. Sigh.  This  is why we wind up with crap gov'ts.

[Guest]

55 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

"the best argument against democracy is a 5 minute conversation with the average voter'.

-Churchill.

 

Way to prove 'em right big guy.  Imagine thinking that democracy shouldn't have participation of the people. Sigh.  This  is why we wind up with crap gov'ts.

I don't think he actually said that.

https://winstonchurchill.org/publications/finest-hour/finest-hour-141/red-herrings-famous-quotes-churchill-never-said/

https://richardlangworth.com/democracy

Of course, he never spent any time on this site...

[myata]

Besides, certainly there's a way for a proportional system to work in diverse, geographically and culturally spread communities. This is nothing new in Europe and many solutions exist in Belguim, Bosnia and probably other places. For example, one can define areas with separate representations, urban Ontario, Ontario North, Rural Ontario. Every one can have fair representation that can be negotiated and we would be voting for real issues and interests, with real and continuous control over the governments via minority parties. It would modernize political system, make it contemporary, transparent, responsive and efficient. 

So it's only a matter of thought and will. No, there are no other reasons. Something made in the times of Adam can be perfect for the eternity only in the rarest lottery. There are only a few species of this kind out of uncounted millions. I wouldn't count on it. Much more likely, nobody cared to think. Why bother? Such a can of worms.

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

I don't think he actually said that.

https://winstonchurchill.org/publications/finest-hour/finest-hour-141/red-herrings-famous-quotes-churchill-never-said/

https://richardlangworth.com/democracy

Of course, he never spent any time on this site...

well someone did.

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, myata said:

Besides, certainly there's a way for a proportional system to work in diverse, geographically and culturally spread communities.

Yes.  Badly.  That's how it works in diverse geographically and culturally spread communities.

For canada it's a terrible idea and as we've seen you don't really understand the system we have already.  If you just want a system where you don't have to think or participate i'm sure there's a totalitarian state out there who'd be willing to do your thinking for you.

Because we can! What?

Edited August 15, 2023 by CdnFox

[myata]

9 hours ago, CdnFox said:

i'm sure there's a totalitarian state out there who'd be willing to do your thinking for you.

Be impressed by the span of the logical connection here! With authoritarian governments out of any reasonable checks and controls as just observed live for two years, complete with emergencies invocation for a flu-like epidemic only because they can, no but still be best system in the world and any change from here will sure lead to a terrible disaster just because we say so. In the tunnel of alternate reality, everything makes sense... till the hard stop.

[myata]

So nobody in the trough duet will be interested in the meaningful change. It's been working great for them as it is, just perfectly made to avoid and prevent any real change, and no questions or change needed but thanks. That's all one needs to know about the election prospects. In a dynamic and volatile world? Keep hoping for the best while the tracks are pointing to Mexico North and the train is well on the way there.

Edited August 15, 2023 by myata

[Nationalist]

To have PR or not to have PR. Right now...I don't care.

I care about the sheer destruction of Liberalism. Both Canada and The USA need a strong and rational leader, who will ignore the Libbies and their wailing, and bring us back from the depths of Tweenkie Hell. 

That means getting out of bed with the Chinese, closing the borders and unchanging the our resources. 

And while the economies roar back, maybe we'll get to see Singh change his pink towel...for a black one.

 

[myata]

Of course, a strong leader,  still out of checks and controls, but of the right kind, that's important. They will figure it all out for us and fix everything with a single word (some already showed how it's done but the hope lives forever - in the DNA that is). Just couldn't figure this one out... too bad.