Canadian Defence News

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, Army Guy said:

Here is the problem with your challenge, no one can guarantee what the future brings us...

Best not to put all our eggs in one basket then it would seem

Quote

 

The CF-18 has been used in combat 4 times, so we have used our air force in combat related missions both in air patrols and bombing ....Europe is preparing for War with Russia within 5 years...That should be a red flag for Canada, China has stated it would reclaim Twain  within 5 years....Looking back on our history we have always gone to war with our allies except once Iraq...My point here is you can't purchase equipment based on we will never or rarely use it for that purpose...you buy equipment for the worst case scenario...because we can not produced it fast enough, meaning the next conflict is come as you are...

The number the Air force gave the government was between 130 and 150 aircraft to fulfill All of Canadas needs, meaning to protect our air space, to provide aircraft to support ground operations, and our sea lanes, and logistical routes...Canada purchased 138 CF-18's of which 3 sqns were put in Europe...and while the F-35 is more capable aircraft, the number 88 barely covers our air space...does not include support for ground operations, nor does it count in expeditionary missions...and finally it does not include any mention of aircraft crashes....to date there has been 18 F-18 crashes those numbers are not accounted for, or training aircraft, aircraft in deep maintance, or regular maintance  ........not to mention everyone is forgetting the fact our next aircraft is going to be around for 40 plus years... Where do you see the gripen in 40 years, operating with gen 6 or 7 aircraft... I'm sure if you were to look at the issue with a micro scope one could justify a much larger purchase, for those reasons...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/cf-18-hornets-1.1003648#:~:text=In 1991%2C the Canadian Forces,against Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi.

Reliability is a factor to be taken into consideration, but is is one of many that need to be taken into account...The primary factor should be what advantages does it give our pilots over their enemies, keeping our pilots alive is the air force most value resource as it takes years to grow and shape a fighter pilot...the F-35 specializes in killing at distance, spotting the enemy before they even know the f-35 is there...those that shot first kill first... 

Your 100 % right there are no guarantees in anything who knows what the next American president will bring......just like you can't guarantee we will not need these aircraft for combat...

American have attacked us for good reason if you were to step back and look at what they wanted I can not remember a US president that has not asked us to get our military and other security apparatus in order, including Obama, What trump did was leave us no other options...

I think the word your looking for is dependency, and thats is the US main point Canada has become dependent on the US for almost everything... to include things that give us our sovereignty, and trump has given us the nudge we needed in my opinion...I don't think both nations will be taken long hot showers with each other any time soon, but we are tied to each other for our mutual defense of North America and we need to have at least a business relationship, one that we can purchase military equipment as well as most of our other goods...

To be honest Cdnfox, neither of our opinions count for much, i don't think the PM reads or even takes into account any of our opinions....So all of us here are talking into the wind....To your tax point, Yes we all pay taxes, including those men and women that have signed on to unlimited liability.....and whose sacrifice is almost never seen , heard or acknowledged  when it is their lives that are on the line...Why is it we chose to ignore their voices.

 

4 times in 40 years.... and never alone.  Always as part of a united force. 

I have no doubt that our planes may get used. The us will pick some fight somewhere someday and once again we'll go. Or europe will or something. 

And as i said having a small fleet of the 'best of the best' to send at that time make some sense. 

I'm sure we'll always have a relationship with the US.  But we need to move further away from being dependent on them.  And i don't feel the issues i raised were addressed by what you said. 

And don't kid yourself, the opinions of people like you and me matter. I told you some time ago, you think the purchase of military gear is a military decision, but it's not. Its' a political decision and always has been and politics is downstream of public sentiment for the most part. This is a conversation canadians need to have, and it will reflect in what gov'ts do. 

2 hours ago, User said:

That is the entire point of what the military does… duh. 

That DOES explain why none of the military operations in history were named  "opertation: Play nice with others and learn to share"         

[John Stone]

............ Canada cannot defend it's sovereignty. 

Allies......... hopefully powerful allies,  provide Canada an International voice ... additionally, when aligned with a defense organization like NATO,  a deterrent (no war?) is the result or if  necessary, unified, projected military power becomes an option. (Yugoslavia?)  The caveat is that to be effective, member states must take their military contributions seriously. 

Oh, yeah ............. forget the U.N. .......... strongly  worded, bold type memos are not effective. I'm sure Lester Pearson is turning in his urn. 

Many Canadians helped to win the freedom of the Two Michaels, but it was only after U.S. President Joe Biden put his shoulder to the boulder that Kovrig and Spavor were able to see the light of day again as free men - this is what allies do. 

 

 

[CdnFox]

15 minutes ago, John Stone said:

............ Canada cannot defend it's sovereignty. 

Allies......... hopefully powerful allies,  provide Canada an International voice ... additionally, when aligned with a defense organization like NATO,  a deterrent (no war?) is the result or if  necessary, unified, projected military power becomes an option. (Yugoslavia?)  The caveat is that to be effective, member states must take their military contributions seriously. 

Oh, yeah ............. forget the U.N. .......... strongly  worded, bold type memos are not effective. I'm sure Lester Pearson is turning in his urn. 

Many Canadians helped to win the freedom of the Two Michaels, but it was only after U.S. President Joe Biden put his shoulder to the boulder that Kovrig and Spavor were able to see the light of day again as free men - this is what allies do. 

 

 

The only reason they got arrested in the first place is because the Americans made us grab a Huawei executive to start with!

So you're giving them praise for putting some effort into solving the problem that they caused in the first place and we're supposed to look at this as what allies do.

Reminds me of the old saying, with friends like this who needs enemies?

[Army Guy]

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

Best not to put all our eggs in one basket then it would seem

4 times in 40 years.... and never alone.  Always as part of a united force. 

I have no doubt that our planes may get used. The us will pick some fight somewhere someday and once again we'll go. Or europe will or something. 

And as i said having a small fleet of the 'best of the best' to send at that time make some sense. 

I'm sure we'll always have a relationship with the US.  But we need to move further away from being dependent on them.  And i don't feel the issues i raised were addressed by what you said. 

And don't kid yourself, the opinions of people like you and me matter. I told you some time ago, you think the purchase of military gear is a military decision, but it's not. Its' a political decision and always has been and politics is downstream of public sentiment for the most part. This is a conversation canadians need to have, and it will reflect in what gov'ts do. 

That DOES explain why none of the military operations in history were named  "opertation: Play nice with others and learn to share"         

Thats not the message our Air force is saying....currently they are not looking for a mixed fleet...They are looking at the winner of 3 separate competitions....not a split fleet , or other aircraft....just a replacement of an aircraft that will be approaching 50 years old by the time it is fully replaced....

Never alone, but you can not guarantee that can you, like everything in life...but for the most part that's how NATO works...

I agree for the most part someone else starts the fight and we join in, as our history has shown...

It does have merits if we as a nation have another 20 to 30 bil to spend, which i doubt so for now my vote goes with Air force commanders past and present...

I agree with you 100%, but we have the military we have today because that is what Canadians want.. and to be honest it is not much, not because the troops lack the will to protect it, but rather Canadians don't want to fund it properly...It happens the best air force equipment is normally made by the US...we do have other US equipment but it is rather the best or the cheapest compared to Europe...Europe makes awesome ground equipment, and ships....but the US has pretty much cornered the market on aircraft...

I have 34 years experience in the Army, never has the Army received the equipment it really wanted with very few exceptions. Politicians have always picked out the equipment our nation needs without any knowledge of it.... I could list dozens of projects that were disastrous and soldiers have died using that equipment in combat...Those deaths mean nothing, nor have they changed anything in the way we purchase equipment.

Politicians should be restricted to approving and providing the funding while also overseeing the project.........while the military pick the system they think is needed to protect this country....Canadians citizens do not have any skin in the game, their life's are not at risk...now if they were strapping themselves into this equipment by all means ....but 99 % of them will not even see this equipment, nor know enough about them to make an educated decision...this differs when considering strategic equipment such as nukes, bombers etc those decsions should be made by politicians and military...

...Nobody else works the way you've describes...plumbers do not buy carpenters tools, your wife does not pick out your power tools, you don't get the pool guy to diagnose your electrical problems , so why do we allow politicians to make these critical decisions on equipment....Until then they are free to express an opinion, but to have that reflect on what equipment is purchased is nuts...like i said before each member of the military pays taxes and for some reason they have no voice, so why is your voice more valuable...

[John Stone]

2 hours ago, CdnFox said:

The only reason they got arrested in the first place is because the Americans made us grab a Huawei executive to start with!

So you're giving them praise for putting some effort into solving the problem that they caused in the first place and we're supposed to look at this as what allies do.

Reminds me of the old saying, with friends like this who needs enemies?

I concur - Justin got punked. 

3 hours ago, eyeball said:

See any subs?

You tell me ......... see any? 

[eyeball]

7 minutes ago, John Stone said:

You tell me ......... see any? 

I've been working on the ocean almost 50 years now and presumably there's a few subs around hereabouts but I've never seen one.

The occasional warship, fighter plane, the odd army truck on shore. I mean count on two hands kind of thing. All friendly.

I'll be near Estevan Pt tomorrow, I'll let you know if I see one.

[Gaétan]

5 hours ago, User said:

That is the entire point of what the military does… duh. 

Yes, but they must say before hiring them that this is what they will turn them into: killers.

[John Stone]

2 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I've been working on the ocean almost 50 years now and presumably there's a few subs around hereabouts but I've never seen one.

The occasional warship, fighter plane, the odd army truck on shore. I mean count on two hands kind of thing. All friendly.

I'll be near Estevan Pt tomorrow, I'll let you know if I see one.

 

2 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I've been working on the ocean almost 50 years now and presumably there's a few subs around hereabouts but I've never seen one.

The occasional warship, fighter plane, the odd army truck on shore. I mean count on two hands kind of thing. All friendly.

I'll be near Estevan Pt tomorrow, I'll let you know if I see one.

.............. subs submerge, eh? 

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

Thats not the message our Air force is saying....currently they are not looking for a mixed fleet...They are looking at the winner of 3 separate competitions....not a split fleet , or other aircraft....just a replacement of an aircraft that will be approaching 50 years old by the time it is fully replaced....

Never alone, but you can not guarantee that can you, like everything in life...but for the most part that's how NATO works...

I agree for the most part someone else starts the fight and we join in, as our history has shown...

It does have merits if we as a nation have another 20 to 30 bil to spend, which i doubt so for now my vote goes with Air force commanders past and present...

I agree with you 100%, but we have the military we have today because that is what Canadians want.. and to be honest it is not much, not because the troops lack the will to protect it, but rather Canadians don't want to fund it properly...It happens the best air force equipment is normally made by the US...we do have other US equipment but it is rather the best or the cheapest compared to Europe...Europe makes awesome ground equipment, and ships....but the US has pretty much cornered the market on aircraft...

I have 34 years experience in the Army, never has the Army received the equipment it really wanted with very few exceptions. Politicians have always picked out the equipment our nation needs without any knowledge of it.... I could list dozens of projects that were disastrous and soldiers have died using that equipment in combat...Those deaths mean nothing, nor have they changed anything in the way we purchase equipment.

Politicians should be restricted to approving and providing the funding while also overseeing the project.........while the military pick the system they think is needed to protect this country....Canadians citizens do not have any skin in the game, their life's are not at risk...now if they were strapping themselves into this equipment by all means ....but 99 % of them will not even see this equipment, nor know enough about them to make an educated decision...this differs when considering strategic equipment such as nukes, bombers etc those decsions should be made by politicians and military...

...Nobody else works the way you've describes...plumbers do not buy carpenters tools, your wife does not pick out your power tools, you don't get the pool guy to diagnose your electrical problems , so why do we allow politicians to make these critical decisions on equipment....Until then they are free to express an opinion, but to have that reflect on what equipment is purchased is nuts...like i said before each member of the military pays taxes and for some reason they have no voice, so why is your voice more valuable...

The air force does not consider the big picture. They look at what they'd like to have. 

As i said, if it were up to doctors every small town emerg room would have mri's and all the best diagnostics. But that's not practical 

And we can not guarantee that we won't be in a situation where we need more planes not just the best planes.  Sooooo kinda goes both ways. 

And yes, our military today barely deserves the name when it comes to size and gear because the public didn't push for more.  LEARN from that.  The purchase of military equipment is political, and right now the public is pretty cool on the idea of buying american.   Carney is milking that to be frank. But the military isn't doing a good job of addressing the issues concerning canadians, so they may very well get stuck with whatever ottawa buys them and live with it. 

Frankly the best chance the military has to get more 35's is trump bullying carney, but that's a two way street. 

And yes, EVERYBODY works the way i just mentioned.  Executives who've problably never done the job will buy the computers and software employees use. People who've never been in a high speed chase pick the cop cars. Politicians who've never prescribed a band aid select hospitals and equipment. 

They get advice and input from pros.  But it's rarely the pros who make the decision unless they're a sole proprietor or the like. 

You keep pretending that you don't need the public on board with military spending. You do. It is not the military that will make the decision.  They might give advice, they might share thoughts and ideas and the politicians may find that compelling but in the end the politicians want to look good to the people. 

Sorry, that's the way the world works. 

 

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, John Stone said:

 

.............. subs submerge, eh? 

Yup. The only one I've heard of that surfaced around here was way back in 1942 off Estevan.

 

[User]

1 hour ago, Gaétan said:

Yes, but they must say before hiring them that this is what they will turn them into: killers.

Um, it is pretty clearly implied. Throughout all of human history, this is what a military does. What next, do you need a disclaimer saying that water is wet?

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, eyeball said:

Yup. The only one I've heard of that surfaced around here was way back in 1942 off Estevan.

 

You realize our submarine base is over on the island right?    

[Gaétan]

11 hours ago, User said:

Um, it is pretty clearly implied. Throughout all of human history, this is what a military does. What next, do you need a disclaimer saying that water is wet?

Yes, but the people who enlist to be soldiers don’t have the same information as a former soldier like you. They are told they are being hired to carry out peace missions and noble causes such as serving their country, whereas in practice they end up killing children. In fact, their brains are reshaped to be able to kill — like in training, when they are told that this mannequin is a Russian or a Chinese, kill it.

[User]

3 hours ago, Gaétan said:

Yes, but the people who enlist to be soldiers don’t have the same information as a former soldier like you. They are told they are being hired to carry out peace missions and noble causes such as serving their country, whereas in practice they end up killing children. In fact, their brains are reshaped to be able to kill — like in training, when they are told that this mannequin is a Russian or a Chinese, kill it.

Again, militaries and war have existed throughout human history. This is not some mystery. 

[ExFlyer]

16 hours ago, eyeball said:

I've been working on the ocean almost 50 years now and presumably there's a few subs around hereabouts but I've never seen one.

The occasional warship, fighter plane, the odd army truck on shore. I mean count on two hands kind of thing. All friendly.

I'll be near Estevan Pt tomorrow, I'll let you know if I see one.

Subs are designed and made not to be seen.

You can see them quite often if you are near the waters in Halifax or southern Vancouver Island waters coming from Bangor Base.. They have submerged by the time they get close to Estavan Point.

[John Stone]

3 hours ago, Gaétan said:

Yes, but the people who enlist to be soldiers don’t have the same information as a former soldier like you. They are told they are being hired to carry out peace missions and noble causes such as serving their country, whereas in practice they end up killing children. In fact, their brains are reshaped to be able to kill — like in training, when they are told that this mannequin is a Russian or a Chinese, kill it.

O Canada! Our home and native land!

True patriot love in all of us command.

With glowing hearts we see thee rise, The True North strong and free!

From far and wide, O Canada, We stand on guard for thee

 

jeez dude, show some respect ........... maybe gratitude. Ya come across as a wannabe draft dodger. 

[Army Guy]

19 hours ago, CdnFox said:

The air force does not consider the big picture. They look at what they'd like to have. 

As i said, if it were up to doctors every small town emerg room would have mri's and all the best diagnostics. But that's not practical 

And we can not guarantee that we won't be in a situation where we need more planes not just the best planes.  Sooooo kinda goes both ways. 

And yes, our military today barely deserves the name when it comes to size and gear because the public didn't push for more.  LEARN from that.  The purchase of military equipment is political, and right now the public is pretty cool on the idea of buying american.   Carney is milking that to be frank. But the military isn't doing a good job of addressing the issues concerning canadians, so they may very well get stuck with whatever ottawa buys them and live with it. 

Frankly the best chance the military has to get more 35's is trump bullying carney, but that's a two way street. 

And yes, EVERYBODY works the way i just mentioned.  Executives who've problably never done the job will buy the computers and software employees use. People who've never been in a high speed chase pick the cop cars. Politicians who've never prescribed a band aid select hospitals and equipment. 

They get advice and input from pros.  But it's rarely the pros who make the decision unless they're a sole proprietor or the like. 

You keep pretending that you don't need the public on board with military spending. You do. It is not the military that will make the decision.  They might give advice, they might share thoughts and ideas and the politicians may find that compelling but in the end the politicians want to look good to the people. 

Sorry, that's the way the world works. 

 

That's BS, the air force knows exactly what it needs to defend the nation and support our foreign policy...They are the experts in their field, they are the ones briefing the politicians...who don't have a clue on any subject under their preview.. It is their decisions  that HAVE killed Canadians....which is one of my main points...

Unlike every doctor, lives are not at risk because someone cheap out...There are plenty of MRI's out there that nobody's lives are in danger...and they don't have to strap themselves into something that was provided by the cheapest bidder, and risk their own lives doing our government s bidding... to score political votes...

No it does not work both ways....politicians pick out the equipment and the numbers they want, despite what they have been briefed upon by the military....So if they pick the wrong equipment or not enough that's is on them....

Your point has been driven home millions of times, everyone with more than 2 years in the military, fully knows that we can not count on the civilian population to have their backs...EVER...You guys carved that in stone decades ago....Joining the Army is nothing more than a job for most, a method to make a paycheck....they risk their lives not for the Nation but for a the men and women next to them, and a pay check...."Learn from that" hard to love something that hates you back.......The military DOES not have hopes and dreams , it has been let done to many times, by our government and it's people and will gladly except what ever our government purchases...give you a smile and a salute....and do what they have always have defend the nation, don't kid yourselves their is no love lost between us , just disappointment ....Not sure what the military has done to any Canadian to give them the attitude you share right now...But your not alone in that, the majority of Canadians feel the same way...

I'm not pretending about anything, let me be clear on this, the majority of the public has Never supported Military on anything... That's on them and the government , not serving members, because we don't want to, but rather are refrained form by policy.......So why should the Military now give a rats A$$ about what they think now.....Like you your mind is already made up, and i doubt you or others are going to change that any time soon...The message our military members receives loud and clear is this, "Canadians don't care about them or their life's or what they do for this country, nor do they care if you come home in a bag or in a seat " ...Military has a recruit department not a PR department, regular members can not promote the military on line it is against the military law, which is why so many retired members are online.... 

Canadians have not supported anything outside of their bubble, it is one of the reasons were as a country are such a mess... They have grown into a bunch of takers, not givers....if they could they would much prefer more social programs than any of the security apparatus...And it shows... 

 

Edited November 30, 2025 by Army Guy

[Army Guy]

7 hours ago, Gaétan said:

Yes, but the people who enlist to be soldiers don’t have the same information as a former soldier like you. They are told they are being hired to carry out peace missions and noble causes such as serving their country, whereas in practice they end up killing children. In fact, their brains are reshaped to be able to kill — like in training, when they are told that this mannequin is a Russian or a Chinese, kill it.

They serve so guys like you can live in moms basement, with all your freedoms and rights in tact....And yes it takes a lot of training to do be able to pull that trigger and take a life....It is exactly what the job is about....it is exactly what is needed to defend our nation and its foreign policy....every nation has a military or force that is designed to protect their nation....and some times that requires having a bigger stick than the bad guys and the wiliness to use it.. you don't have to like it , but it serves you every day, like it or not....

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

That's BS, the air force knows exactly what it needs to defend the nation and support our foreign policy...They are the experts in their field, they are the ones briefing the politicians...who don't have a clue on any subject under their preview.. It is their decisions  that HAVE killed Canadians....which is one of my main points...

Unlike every doctor, lives are not at risk because someone cheap out...There are plenty of MRI's out there that nobody's lives are in danger...and they don't have to strap themselves into something that was provided by the cheapest bidder, and risk their own lives doing our government s bidding... to score political votes...

No it does not work both ways....politicians pick out the equipment and the numbers they want, despite what they have been briefed upon by the military....So if they pick the wrong equipment or not enough that's is on them....

Your point has been driven home millions of times, everyone with more than 2 years in the military, fully knows that we can not count on the civilian population to have their backs...EVER...You guys carved that in stone decades ago....Joining the Army is nothing more than a job for most, a method to make a paycheck....they risk their lives not for the Nation but for a the men and women next to them, and a pay check...."Learn from that" hard to love something that hates you back.......The military DOES not have hopes and dreams , it has been let done to many times, by our government and it's people and will gladly except what ever our government purchases...give you a smile and a salute....and do what they have always have defend the nation, don't kid yourselves their is no love lost between us , just disappointment ....Not sure what the military has done to any Canadian to give them the attitude you share right now...But your not alone in that, the majority of Canadians feel the same way...

I'm not pretending about anything, let me be clear on this, the majority of the public has Never supported Military on anything... That's on them and the government , not serving members, because we don't want to, but rather are refrained form by policy.......So why should the Military now give a rats A$$ about what they think now.....Like you your mind is already made up, and i doubt you or others are going to change that any time soon...The message our military members receives loud and clear is this, "Canadians don't care about them or their life's or what they do for this country, nor do they care if you come home in a bag or in a seat " ...Military has a recruit department not a PR department, regular members can not promote the military on line it is against the military law, which is why so many retired members are online.... 

Canadians have not supported anything outside of their bubble, it is one of the reasons were as a country are such a mess... They have grown into a bunch of takers, not givers....if they could they would much prefer more social programs than any of the security apparatus...And it shows... 

 

I didn't say that the air force doesn't know what it needs to defend the nation. That's twisting my words. I said they don't look at the big picture. And that's true. And fairness it's not their job either

So while their input is critical it's not enough by itself. 

And yes, lives are at risk if you cheap out on medical care. 25,000 people died waiting for critical medical care last year alone. People die in our ER'S every year because we don't have the optimal number of gear or doctors 

I honestly cannot believe you just said that people don't die if they don't get medical treatment and we don't have the means to treat them. That is an insane thing to say and your credibility is now in the toilet

and yes, your usual 'Poor us we're so hard done by and unloved" speech is noted.  It's bullshit as always. But it seems to make you feel better. 

The majority of the public supports the military. Want proof? We just had an election over it where massive increases of military spending was on the platform for both parties and the one saying it the loudest won the election. I think the military is going to wind up disappointed but the people DID support it. 

So you're wrong. Proof positive. 

But the military does a horrible job of communicating and then you cry to the heavens about how nobody cares. 

Hey   i noticed the budget slashed the hell out of veteran spending.  Didn't hear anything much about it from the military or anyone else. ONE guy who's a vet wrote an article in the toronto sun as i recall. 

Mark Carney’s war on veterans goes beyond budget cuts | Toronto Sun

Even this guy notes that the military and the veterans don't do nearly enough to bring attention to their issues. And you were all excited about all this money carney was going to spend and the money was going to fix the problems of the military and I told you at the time it was not going to turn out the way you wanted it to and low and behold.

 

None of which addresses the issue at the Americans are not reliable and we must not sole source with them anymore. Instead of addressing that you turned it into a crybaby poutfest about how nobody cares about the military at a time when military spending has just been increased by about 150%

And all that proves is you cannot take the military's word for what it needs in the slightest. At best you can Factor it in but apparently you guys will say anything you got a giant chip on your shoulder that you focus on rather than deal with the issues at hand

 

[Army Guy]

What big picture do you think the air force is missing with this Purchase ?

And what if any factors would supersede the value of a Military member life...

Quote

As i said, if it were up to doctors every small town emerg room would have mri's and all the best diagnostics. But that's not practical 

None look at who is twisting words, above is your statement, MRI are available at most large cities and available to all that need them....Not the same as purchasing equipment that only meant 33 % of the specs that the military was looking for...

Quote

I honestly cannot believe you just said that people don't die if they don't get medical treatment and we don't have the means to treat them. That is an insane thing to say and your credibility is now in the toilet

No where did i say or suggest what you are claiming i said and as per usual your out right lying....to make your point....

If the majority of Canadians supported the military, it would not be in the mess it is now, Fighter jets well over 40 years old, Ships well over 40 years old...ground equipment approaching 20 years of more, Quarters with out run or working toilets, or drinkable water, infra structure over 60 years old....And don't bullsh!t us about why carney got elected, and it was not because Canadians were concerned about the military....There are tones of polls out there stating what Canadians are most concerned about and the military is not even in the top ten...Carney plan is to appease trump not Canadians...Nice try though...Man your reaching with that statement...Liberals won because everyone else did not want PP to be elected...

You don't get it....the military has laws against it's members speaking badly of the military or elected members...The military does not have a PR department because the government does not allow it to speak out out of turn, they are employees....It speaks volumes that regular Canadians who are bombarded by the media on our military's started does nothing ... and yet we can get thousands marching for a terrorist organization...ya nice try...

Your allowing your hatred of trump cloud your judgement...US and Canadian military work hand in hand on the defense of America...and has done so over many decades...We rely on the US to provide us with the best military aircraft on the planet, if you can find another aircraft that does the job better in Europe please provide an example...most other equipment is purchased or designed else where...

You keep saying that the military does a poor job of letting the public know the problems in the military, just google it and thousands of web sites will come back, with dozens of pod casts, run and operated by retired military people, we went though this last time and i provided half dozens articles....once again your being dishonest when just over the last month there has been dozens of military stories in the media. 

yes military spending has gone up, and that is where you mind shuts off....but how do you explain why they can't afford to train, or buy spare parts or look after our vets,  poor equipment states where more than 60 % of it is broken....Sorry but even you could see there is a problem....

I really don't give a shit you cant trust anyone...It is a Canadian trait, and when the fingers are pointed at you, you get defensive....instead of stepping up and owning it....then you attack....with you should be happy we give you anything at all...(and they truely are , because it happens so rarely)....or we will decide what is best for you, when you can not even see the problem staring you directly in your face...You can call it what ever you like a cry fest or what ever, your a guy that does not like the facts when presented to you...and none of them support your augment...But thanks for coming out anyways....

I find it funny that some one with no skin in the game has so much to say....maybe one day someone from your family will join our nations defense apparatus and have to strap into some cockpit of a fighter that was made by the lowest bidder...and will be soon obsolete...i wonder what you'll have to say then....

 

[John Stone]

On 11/29/2025 at 9:50 AM, BeaverFever said:

Snipers are a key asset, they exist for a reason, most military assets don’t singlehandedly determine battles but are key nonetheless. They point is that the different assets all play different roles. 

A sniper undermines enemy morale. 

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, Army Guy said:

What big picture do you think the air force is missing with this Purchase ?

And what if any factors would supersede the value of a Military member life...

None look at who is twisting words, above is your statement, MRI are available at most large cities and available to all that need them....Not the same as purchasing equipment that only meant 33 % of the specs that the military was looking for...

No where did i say or suggest what you are claiming i said and as per usual your out right lying....to make your point....

If the majority of Canadians supported the military, it would not be in the mess it is now, Fighter jets well over 40 years old, Ships well over 40 years old...ground equipment approaching 20 years of more, Quarters with out run or working toilets, or drinkable water, infra structure over 60 years old....And don't bullsh!t us about why carney got elected, and it was not because Canadians were concerned about the military....There are tones of polls out there stating what Canadians are most concerned about and the military is not even in the top ten...Carney plan is to appease trump not Canadians...Nice try though...Man your reaching with that statement...Liberals won because everyone else did not want PP to be elected...

You don't get it....the military has laws against it's members speaking badly of the military or elected members...The military does not have a PR department because the government does not allow it to speak out out of turn, they are employees....It speaks volumes that regular Canadians who are bombarded by the media on our military's started does nothing ... and yet we can get thousands marching for a terrorist organization...ya nice try...

Your allowing your hatred of trump cloud your judgement...US and Canadian military work hand in hand on the defense of America...and has done so over many decades...We rely on the US to provide us with the best military aircraft on the planet, if you can find another aircraft that does the job better in Europe please provide an example...most other equipment is purchased or designed else where...

You keep saying that the military does a poor job of letting the public know the problems in the military, just google it and thousands of web sites will come back, with dozens of pod casts, run and operated by retired military people, we went though this last time and i provided half dozens articles....once again your being dishonest when just over the last month there has been dozens of military stories in the media. 

yes military spending has gone up, and that is where you mind shuts off....but how do you explain why they can't afford to train, or buy spare parts or look after our vets,  poor equipment states where more than 60 % of it is broken....Sorry but even you could see there is a problem....

I really don't give a shit you cant trust anyone...It is a Canadian trait, and when the fingers are pointed at you, you get defensive....instead of stepping up and owning it....then you attack....with you should be happy we give you anything at all...(and they truely are , because it happens so rarely)....or we will decide what is best for you, when you can not even see the problem staring you directly in your face...You can call it what ever you like a cry fest or what ever, your a guy that does not like the facts when presented to you...and none of them support your augment...But thanks for coming out anyways....

I find it funny that some one with no skin in the game has so much to say....maybe one day someone from your family will join our nations defense apparatus and have to strap into some cockpit of a fighter that was made by the lowest bidder...and will be soon obsolete...i wonder what you'll have to say then....

 

I don't think the air force takes into account economic issues or the relationship with the united states politically or strategic Partnerships or a number of other similar things. And as I said in fairness it is not their job.

And spare me the nonsense about superseding a member's life. Don't be so trite. If you want to save the military members lives never ever go into a war or conflict, there problem solved. When purchasing military equipment the goal is always to balance cost, performance, politics, economics and practicality.

And no no twisting words. What I said was true. If you let the medical community have everything it wanted they would put an MRI and other diagnostic equipment everywhere. But that's not practical.

In this day and age in many provinces it's not even practical to keep emergency rooms open all the time. And people have absolutely died.

Getting back to your whining and crying about Canadians not supporting the military yet again I will point out they literally just supported a massive 250% increase in military spending. That shoots your theory in the foot right there

The military does an absolute shit job our communication. Wine and cry and tear up all you like but that is the simple fact and if I have to go looking to see what the military says on websites then you've proven my point.

And I don't have to explain shit about how the military spends its money. If there's a problem with training it's a military problem and not a money problem at this point. Take it up with the military

And I have a massive amount of skin in the game. It's my country that we're talking about defending. You are the servant not the master. It's also my money you will be spending. As a military person you create no wealth in this country, you are a drain on resources. It is myself and others like me who create the wealth that pays for you to do your job. The job itself may be valuable, we may be thankful to have you doing the job, but the simple fact is it is people like me putting the bill and not you.

So yeah I have skin in the game.

And I find it hilarious that every 5 minutes you try and go back to the idea that somehow I'm not involved in the spending of billions of dollars of taxpayer money. Or that this isn't my country And I and others like me should sit down and do what we're told

Fcuk that shit.

And I see that you still can't address the simple matter that we can't trust America anymore. Yet that's the issue underpinning all of this and you absolutely refuse to address it.

 

[Army Guy]

9 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

I don't think the air force takes into account economic issues or the relationship with the united states politically or strategic Partnerships or a number of other similar things. And as I said in fairness it is not their job.

And spare me the nonsense about superseding a member's life. Don't be so trite. If you want to save the military members lives never ever go into a war or conflict, there problem solved. That would be When purchasing military equipment the goal is always to balance cost, performance, politics, economics and practicality.

And no no twisting words. What I said was true. If you let the medical community have everything it wanted they would put an MRI and other diagnostic equipment everywhere. But that's not practical.

In this day and age in many provinces it's not even practical to keep emergency rooms open all the time. And people have absolutely died.

Getting back to your whining and crying about Canadians not supporting the military yet again I will point out they literally just supported a massive 250% increase in military spending. That shoots your theory in the foot right there

The military does an absolute shit job our communication. Wine and cry and tear up all you like but that is the simple fact and if I have to go looking to see what the military says on websites then you've proven my point.

And I don't have to explain shit about how the military spends its money. If there's a problem with training it's a military problem and not a money problem at this point. Take it up with the military

And I have a massive amount of skin in the game. It's my country that we're talking about defending. You are the servant not the master. It's also my money you will be spending. As a military person you create no wealth in this country, you are a drain on resources. It is myself and others like me who create the wealth that pays for you to do your job. The job itself may be valuable, we may be thankful to have you doing the job, but the simple fact is it is people like me putting the bill and not you.

So yeah I have skin in the game.

And I find it hilarious that every 5 minutes you try and go back to the idea that somehow I'm not involved in the spending of billions of dollars of taxpayer money. Or that this isn't my country And I and others like me should sit down and do what we're told

Fcuk that shit.

And I see that you still can't address the simple matter that we can't trust America anymore. Yet that's the issue underpinning all of this and you absolutely refuse to address it.

 

To be honest you don't know what the military takes into account , your guessing lets not forget our Airforce work hand in hand with American Air force and are very much aware of the politics happening on both sides....

It's trite to you because you don't place a value on anything military....You seem to not know how this works, once you sign onto unlimited liability you don't have a say in where you go or whom you fight....That would be the same government that purchases the equipment....like i have said before it is cheaper to bury Canadians than it is to buy them the proper equipment....

Your example is not apples to apples....we don't have military equipment in another warehouse or province we can use...and it takes far to long to manufacture it, the next conflict is come as you are...

Lets talk about your point if you think Carney got elected on this one point your grip on Canadian politics is on amateur level...it does not even make the top 5 reason he got elected...This country has agree because we are in a trade war with the US and to appease trump Carney has agreed to sell him the moon, we both know Canada is not going to live up to any NATO agreement ...So my point still stands...we would be lucky to see the 8 additional bil to make 2 % a constant.

Your not looking because you don't give a sh!t, and can't be bothered....Your not alone the majority of Canadians could not be bother either.......which proves all the rest of my points....If Canada cared it would have stepped up and demanded our government to do something , anything...maybe all Canadians can do is support terrorist, or LGBTQ community...

You seem to think your the master, and i am the servant....I did not serve it's tax payers contrary to what you think,.....i served the government of Canada and swore allegiance to the king... to defend Canada from enemies foreign and domestic.... Our history is full of examples of our military being used against Tax payers....in times of crises Just saying...

Sorry my friend your a number on a spread sheet, just like everyone else....that happens to pay income tax, you are no better nor worse than i am....You continue to discount the fact that the military also pays income tax, but you've chosen not to include them in your Tax payers comment....I'd also like to correct you it is not "YOUR" money, once you and ever other Canadian pays their taxes it becomes property of the Federal government to do with as they please...Your only duty to this nation is to pay taxes and if told to by the government serve in in time of crises...Thats it my friend.. you don't have a seat in parliament, and your voice needs to have millions of others attached to it  to have any effect...That's a maybe, not a guarantee..

I like you,  pay taxes on my earnings like every other Canada so your statement that i do not create wealth in this nation you've lied again....The fact that the military creates wealth by supporting our defense industry, which creates jobs and investments..by providing services to this nation, like Coast Guard, Transport Canada, along with support to the nation when there is a crises...

Stop pretending your thankful , because that's not the message your sending..., when you act like some how we should be lucky to take your table scraps...So keep paying your taxes and stop acting like your the only one....and please stop the acting like you care...You may be a citizen that pays taxes, you may even have a job that serves the nation, but you are no better than any other Canadian....nor are you more important...

Nobody has said you should sit down and STFU, your entitled to your opinion it is one of the freedoms we have in this country...But thinking you know more than those military commanders is non sense...thinking you some how have a voice that counts in this decision is false....Unless you sit at Carneys table, which i heard he is looking for new people...

You seem to have bought into Carney narrative trump is a real, really  bad man, and hear i thought you were a hard core conservative....not a limpy liberal, maybe i was wrong........he has "said" some nasty stuff, he's offer Canada a way out by offering us to be the 51 st state, because Canadian leadership up until this moment has lead us to here and now....

....That's sounds terrible....show me on the doll where it hurts....Trumps threats has done a few things to better this nation, we spend a little more on border services and RCMP....we are now spending the 2 % on our military which was promised decades ago...He has sorted out the lagards in NATO, and force everyone to spend 5 % so we can catch up with the real enemies in this world....Russia, China, Iran, and dozens of others...He has not acted on any of his threats to take us over....SO come on out from under your bed....the bad mans is all words...Just like Carney is all words....

 

 

 

 

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

To be honest you don't know what the military takes into account , your guessing lets not forget our Airforce work hand in hand with American Air force and are very much aware of the politics happening on both sides....

It's trite to you because you don't place a value on anything military....You seem to not know how this works, once you sign onto unlimited liability you don't have a say in where you go or whom you fight....That would be the same government that purchases the equipment....like i have said before it is cheaper to bury Canadians than it is to buy them the proper equipment....

Your example is not apples to apples....we don't have military equipment in another warehouse or province we can use...and it takes far to long to manufacture it, the next conflict is come as you are...

Lets talk about your point if you think Carney got elected on this one point your grip on Canadian politics is on amateur level...it does not even make the top 5 reason he got elected...This country has agree because we are in a trade war with the US and to appease trump Carney has agreed to sell him the moon, we both know Canada is not going to live up to any NATO agreement ...So my point still stands...we would be lucky to see the 8 additional bil to make 2 % a constant.

Your not looking because you don't give a sh!t, and can't be bothered....Your not alone the majority of Canadians could not be bother either.......which proves all the rest of my points....If Canada cared it would have stepped up and demanded our government to do something , anything...maybe all Canadians can do is support terrorist, or LGBTQ community...

You seem to think your the master, and i am the servant....I did not serve it's tax payers contrary to what you think,.....i served the government of Canada and swore allegiance to the king... to defend Canada from enemies foreign and domestic.... Our history is full of examples of our military being used against Tax payers....in times of crises Just saying...

Sorry my friend your a number on a spread sheet, just like everyone else....that happens to pay income tax, you are no better nor worse than i am....You continue to discount the fact that the military also pays income tax, but you've chosen not to include them in your Tax payers comment....I'd also like to correct you it is not "YOUR" money, once you and ever other Canadian pays their taxes it becomes property of the Federal government to do with as they please...Your only duty to this nation is to pay taxes and if told to by the government serve in in time of crises...Thats it my friend.. you don't have a seat in parliament, and your voice needs to have millions of others attached to it  to have any effect...That's a maybe, not a guarantee..

I like you,  pay taxes on my earnings like every other Canada so your statement that i do not create wealth in this nation you've lied again....The fact that the military creates wealth by supporting our defense industry, which creates jobs and investments..by providing services to this nation, like Coast Guard, Transport Canada, along with support to the nation when there is a crises...

Stop pretending your thankful , because that's not the message your sending..., when you act like some how we should be lucky to take your table scraps...So keep paying your taxes and stop acting like your the only one....and please stop the acting like you care...You may be a citizen that pays taxes, you may even have a job that serves the nation, but you are no better than any other Canadian....nor are you more important...

Nobody has said you should sit down and STFU, your entitled to your opinion it is one of the freedoms we have in this country...But thinking you know more than those military commanders is non sense...thinking you some how have a voice that counts in this decision is false....Unless you sit at Carneys table, which i heard he is looking for new people...

You seem to have bought into Carney narrative trump is a real, really  bad man, and hear i thought you were a hard core conservative....not a limpy liberal, maybe i was wrong........he has "said" some nasty stuff, he's offer Canada a way out by offering us to be the 51 st state, because Canadian leadership up until this moment has lead us to here and now....

....That's sounds terrible....show me on the doll where it hurts....Trumps threats has done a few things to better this nation, we spend a little more on border services and RCMP....we are now spending the 2 % on our military which was promised decades ago...He has sorted out the lagards in NATO, and force everyone to spend 5 % so we can catch up with the real enemies in this world....Russia, China, Iran, and dozens of others...He has not acted on any of his threats to take us over....SO come on out from under your bed....the bad mans is all words...Just like Carney is all words....

 

 

 

 

If you honestly thought I was wrong you'd have said I was wrong, not that I can't be 100% sure I'm right. I'm not wrong.

And if nothing else I do know how government procurement and bureaucracy works. At the end of the day the army is in fact of bureaucracy.  And it's not their focus, they're busy doing military things, politicians are doing political things. 

As to not putting value on the military, you're a liar.  Out and out,  simple as that.  You're a cowardly little man who can't cope with the truth and is forced to rely on making up fictions about me.  Maybe stop that, it's not a good look, 

And yes, the public and the politicians are the masters, the soldiers are the servants. I can't believe you'd need that explain to you. That's why they call it military "service"

I'm sorry kiddo but if I'm a number on a spreadsheet then you're a decimal point at best. 

When I pay taxes I have created wealth and I'm sharing that wealth with the government of the land. When you pay taxes all you're doing is rebating some of the tax money I earned that was given to you. You've created nothing. 

Let's put it this way, if I stop what I'm doing the Canadian government has less money. If you stop what you're doing the Canadian government has more money.  Which means while the job of the military may be necessary and important and valuable it's the rest of the public that's footing the bill for it 

Just because I hold you in contempt doesn't mean I hold the military in contempt. I don't like that you're a whiny little cry baby biatch as a person. That doesn't mean I don't consider the military valuable or appreciate what they do. I met a lot of doctors I also think are complete pr*cks But that doesn't mean I don't appreciate having a medical system.

And you are precisely saying to sit down and shut up. That's your whole Spiel along with "nobody cares about me" as if you were some sort of weirdo teenager

And Carney's narrative is that trump is an amazing transformative leader and the G7 would fall apart without him. When was the last time Carney called trump a bad man?

So you can't even address that simple point without lying.

United states is not a reliable ally. We should be diversifying away from them both economically and militarily. I'm not comfortable with the idea of sourcing our fighters from them exclusively or any other military hardware because I think politically it's a huge mistake. 

And my opinion matters. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Now if you're done whining and crying why don't you address the issue about the united states. I see we're like 6 posts in and you still can't address that simple point despite the fact that it's one of the most important elements of the discussion

Jesus Christ if you are an example of our military these days I hope we're not invaded by anything more than an irate rabbit. Why don't you have the balls to actually dress the issue instead of running around like you need a tampon crying about how nobody likes the military in a year when we just voted to increase spending by an insane amount.  Pretend you have a pair and actually address the issue instead of this bullshit. 

Or just admit you don't know anything and your opinion is useless. Either way. 

[Gaétan]

Wars have never benefited the people, only a few kings and dictators who enriched themselves. Today, they really only benefit a handful of businessmen, not the people. As far as I’m concerned, they could just load Canada’s weapons onto old ships and sink them in the Pacific and the Atlantic. Nobody is going to come kill us for pleasure. If they want to plunder our gold mines, let them do it.