TreeBeard Posted November 22, 2025 Report Posted November 22, 2025 2 minutes ago, ExFlyer said: Ok... believe what you wish. Those aren’t beliefs. They’re facts. Which part do you disagree with? Quote
ExFlyer Posted November 22, 2025 Report Posted November 22, 2025 (edited) 47 minutes ago, TreeBeard said: Those aren’t beliefs. They’re facts. Which part do you disagree with? "the interoperability argument is BS." The interoperability right now is only with the Link 16 communications. "All NATO and partner nations adhere to common operational and communication standards" and "Standardized data links, such as Link 16, allow different platforms to communicate and share tactical information, providing a shared operational picture" There is a lot more than communications. Weapon systems, targeting, capability etc. Edited November 22, 2025 by ExFlyer 1 Quote You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to tell me what mine should be.
eyeball Posted November 22, 2025 Report Posted November 22, 2025 2 hours ago, John Stone said: Which raises the next question, how do conventional forces prevent a nuclear holocaust. They don't, it seems only nukes can do that while also deterring a conventional invasion - forever reducing our standards of living trying to keep up with the neighbors seems like a mugs game if there ever was one. 1 Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
Army Guy Posted November 22, 2025 Report Posted November 22, 2025 20 hours ago, TreeBeard said: The F35 has been plagued with problems and cost overruns. It has issues in cold weather. We have cold weather. It has huge maintenance costs. We don’t need those. It’s not worth having that albatross around our necks. A mixed fleet, with limited F35s already slated for purchase, would be the way to go. The Gripen will be much more cost effective. https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/06/12/the-pentagon-is-battling-the-clock-to-fix-serious-unreported-f-35-problems/ Your source is dated 2019....and is very outdated, It does not have issues in cold weather, they operate out of Alaska, all the time and there is no palm trees there... https://www.eielson.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/3591523/f-35-lightning-ii/ Quote According to Czech estimates, operating 24 Gripen E/F aircraft along with armaments would cost $174 million per year, or $7.25 million per aircraft. For the same number of F-35s, the figure reached $231 million — about $9.6 million per unit. Based on 200 flight hours per year, the cost per flight hour for the Gripen E/F would be about $36,200 compared to $48,000 for the F-35. https://breaking-news.com.ua/en/news/world-en/defense-express-compared-the-operating-costs-of-the-gripen-with-other-fighter-jets/ A mixed fleet is the way to go according to you, and yet Many of the commanders of air command don't see it that way , maybe you can give us a source on what your basing this opinion on....or maybe like the other posters on here it is based on nothing really. Yes Gripen is more cost efficient to fly, one could also say the spitfire would also be more efficient to fly and maintain, but lacks everything the F-35 offers, your comparing a 4.5 fighter to a 5 th gen fighter it is not apples to apples ...Canada has a long history of keeping equipment for 40 plus years...the world is working on gen 6 aircraft now....and god knows what they will be working on in 40 years....SO why invest in a fighter that is outdated already.. If it is all about saving money then like i said buy spitfires....I find these comments funny because Our own military pilots have chosen the the F-35 in 3 separate competitions. each one of these competitions found the Gripen placing at best 3 rd place because 2 European competitors dropped out... Nobody is even bringing that point up....why would we pick a fighter that does not even place in the top 5.. Are you suggesting that OUR politicians know better than the men and women that fly these machines....or maybe we don't value their Live's enough to buy the best aircraft available at the time...which one is it... 4 Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted November 22, 2025 Report Posted November 22, 2025 9 hours ago, BeaverFever said: All NATO countries prioritize US interoperability they still build and design their own aircraft. You don’t have to have the exact same aircraft as the USA to be interoperable. Even the countries that bought the F35 are developing their own 6th generation aircraft, not one but TWO 6th gen designs are underway in Europe rather than joining the US NGAD program, that ought to tell you something. They share a landmass with Russia. Russia cannot and will not invade North America, it’s logistically impossible. Even if they somehow magically figured out the massively resource intensive invasion of Canada they would have to do so while winning a war on their western front in Europe as well. That’s not realistic look how they’re struggling with Ukraine alone. The Russian economy is slightly smaller than Canada’s, they couldn’t possibly pull itnoff an they know it. That’s because SuperHornet and Gripen aren’t high-end warfighters and if you could only have one aircraft it makes sense you would want the most capable. But a mixed fleet gives you options. The Canadian military leadership always wants the shiniest most expensive US kit and they always look up to their American counterparts like they’re a cool big brother they want approval from. A mixed fleet allows them to get the approval from the cool kids and without wasting money and need I remind you F35 still has a down time of 50%. No they don't have to be the same aircraft.....but how many are buying more 4.5 gen aircraft to replace older aircraft.....why is that...ever wonder why the gripen is lacking sales....Yes they are investing into gen 6 aircraft, but they have already purchased F-35 and no they are not buying a cheaper gen 4.5 to save on money.... Your making promises you can not have the knowledge / experience or access to Military intelligence to make...if it is impossible Why are we about to spend bils on artic defense ? Now if you think if Russia invades Europe that Canada will not mobilize its forces your not thinking this through. Most European NATO countries are preparing for war...NATO predicts within 5 years....now I'm not a military genius But I'm pretty sure NATO generals have thought this through millions of times, and they are convinced their predictions are real....All of them think Russia is very capable of burning large portions of Europe to the ground... Air command has shot down the idea of mixed fleets for many reasons...watch the videos i provided.... Yes the old adage of the military wants the shiniest most expensive US kit.... I mean why would they want the best equipment it is only their life's that are at stake....And yet our new subs are either German, or South Korean, our new frigate ships are British designs , our Main battle tanks are German. Your message comes in loud and clear, you don't trust our own military leaders to make the best choices....again why waste all the effort in having the military pick out specs and then test this equipment when we could just have a vote and All Canadians could pick on what they like.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted November 22, 2025 Report Posted November 22, 2025 5 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said: So to people with military knowledge here: F-35 only or with the Gripen? What criteria should be looked at? The cost of keeping them airborne seems to favour the Gripen. After the many threats from Trump, can we trust the Americans to support our F-35 planes and keep them working through the minor squabbles all neighbours have? I know that question would not arise with the Swedes. On the other hand, the charming US ambassador seems to be saying that the F-35s are an option we can’t refuse if we want a trade deal. F-35...everything else favors the F-35 a gen 5 aircraft with capabilities the Gripen could only dream off....it's sensors can spot enemy aircraft well beyond their own radar coverage, shooting first is a wining strategy and killing at distance is the F-35 domain...It has been battle tested by Israel and the US.... We only have 3 more years of trump....are we going to be that petty as to depriver our pilots defending this country by flying the best aircraft on the market right now.... 2 Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Venandi Posted November 23, 2025 Report Posted November 23, 2025 (edited) 16 hours ago, TreeBeard said: ....the interoperability argument is BS. I hesitate to do this and have a feeling I'm going to regret it but I'll make one last effort to illustrate the point I (and a few others here) are trying to make. Perhaps a grossly simplified analogy that everyone can relate to might help Consider a family of four. Everyone has busy schedules, the kids go to university and everyone is actively involved in running the family business. It gets to the point that connectivity, file sharing, schedule syncing, air dropping selected files etc etc is exactly what they're looking for. The idea of syncing their devices really appeals to them because they want to streamline their collective efforts and enhance the situational awareness of all players. Initially they all decide to get iPhones and MacBooks, they lay down a deposit and await the hardware. But there's a sale on and they're looking to save a few bucks so they deliberately decide to switch it up... the kids get PCs and iPhones while the parents get MacBooks and android phones. Now. The question isn't so much "can they make it work" or "are there APPS for that," It's more about the fact that even though they knew exactly what they wanted (and needed) they accepted a mixed fleet of devices because they didn't like one of the salesmen and were able tp save 20 bucks on the purchase price. Now multiply the complexity of their business a thousand fold and think way (WAY) beyond the compatibility of Mac Pages and MS Word. Personally, If they were to ask for my advice (they wouldn't BTW because I'm a total dolt with computers), I'd probably recommend sticking with one or the other instead of deliberately mixing things up. How about you? Does my cautionary argument in favour of the interoperability between proprietary devices still sound like complete BS to you? If so, proceed on course with my blessings but please understand that interoperability is only one aspect of opting for a mixed fleet in a small force that only consists of 55 combat ready fighter pilots. Coordinating and paying for all of the supply, logistics, spare parts and remote overhaul requirements will probably be enough to make you want to cry and so far we've only considered interoperability. Personally, I would really enjoy watching you sort out the training and facility requirements, but that's just me. Don't worry about that now though, we'll just figure it out as we go along.... along with a few other loose ends. If your only reason for doing this is because you don't like Trump (I'm partial to his wife BTW) then please lock yourself in the basement for the next three years, it will be over before you know it. Edited November 23, 2025 by Venandi 1 1 Quote
BeaverFever Posted November 23, 2025 Author Report Posted November 23, 2025 19 hours ago, CdnFox said: No he didn't. I doubt he'd even heard of it. Staffers would have said "this is what we're doing btw' and he'd have said 'er ok'. THis is right up there with him creating an office to announce a bunch of major projects which were already happening regardless then trying to take credit for it He did nothing Close but no cigar. They said “this what we’re planning to do in the next year after the Americans have done it” and he said “I just got off the phone with the PM of Australia, we’re going do it now” Carney had been advising Trudeau for 6 months already and had been officially selected leader Furthermore he would have been fully briefed on major issues initiatives feom the moment he won the liberal leadership. To suggest that $6 billion deal the largest in Australia’s history than thumbs Canada’s nose at USA and that was publicly announced by Carney himself just happened without the Carney’s knowledge is ridiculous. Quote
John Stone Posted November 23, 2025 Report Posted November 23, 2025 14 hours ago, eyeball said: They don't, it seems only nukes can do that while also deterring a conventional invasion - forever reducing our standards of living trying to keep up with the neighbors seems like a mugs game if there ever was one. Conventional weapons allow the players to negotiate before they dust off the nukes. Quote
John Stone Posted November 23, 2025 Report Posted November 23, 2025 16 hours ago, ExFlyer said: Ok... believe what you wish. 16 hours ago, ExFlyer said: Ok... believe what you wish. 16 hours ago, ExFlyer said: Ok... believe what you wish. The U.S. is the backbone of NATO? Canada does not have the luxury of being effective supporting NATO (U.S.) while playing politics, international or domestic. For Canada, diversity in platforms is weakness - not strength. And that includes River Class destroyers fitment CCS / weapons suite, and subs. But hey, that's what politicians do. $$ Quote
BeaverFever Posted November 23, 2025 Author Report Posted November 23, 2025 CAE signs new agreement with Sweden-based Saab to provide training services, devices MONTREAL — CAE Inc. has announced an agreement to be the preferred supplier of certain training and simulation equipment for Sweden-based Saab’s airborne early warning system. https://www.ctvnews.ca/business/article/cae-signs-new-agreement-with-sweden-based-saab-to-provide-training-services-devices/ Another deal that Carney’s government had “nothing to do with” I am sure it’s totally unrelated to the major state visit involving the king of Sweden, senior Swedish officials, deputy PM, and all of Sweden’s top industry leaders and the multiple visits that Carney and his officials have made to Sweden 🤣 If it’s not obvious to anyone yet, Canada will be getting the Saab GlobalEye AWACS plane, which is built on the Bombardier platform, although it hasn’t been formally announced. I’ve been hoping for this since the new defence strategy that came out under Trudeau called for AWACS but at the time it seemed we would get bullied into buying the Americans’ Boeing E7 Wedgetail since Uk and Australia operate it and NATO and France had it on order. But then once Trump drama started, began to suspect we wouldn’t be buying it. Then the USAF cancelled its E7 program this summer and it was supposed to be the “anchor customer”, totally screwing over UK Australia and the few other countries that have already bought tiny fleets of E7s. France has now cancelled its E7 order and switched to GlobalEye and Melanie Joly has been name dropping it in most of her speeches about building up Canadian industry so I’m convinced now we will be getting it also. NATO has cancelled its E7 order and is shopping for an alternative and GlobalEye is the only option while Germany has said it is eyeing the plane as well plus a fleet of other bombardier aircraft Quote
ExFlyer Posted November 23, 2025 Report Posted November 23, 2025 23 minutes ago, BeaverFever said: CAE signs new agreement with Sweden-based Saab to provide training services, devices MONTREAL — CAE Inc. has announced an agreement to be the preferred supplier of certain training and simulation equipment for Sweden-based Saab’s airborne early warning system. https://www.ctvnews.ca/business/article/cae-signs-new-agreement-with-sweden-based-saab-to-provide-training-services-devices/ Another deal that Carney’s government had “nothing to do with” I am sure it’s totally unrelated to the major state visit involving the king of Sweden, senior Swedish officials, deputy PM, and all of Sweden’s top industry leaders and the multiple visits that Carney and his officials have made to Sweden 🤣 If it’s not obvious to anyone yet, Canada will be getting the Saab GlobalEye AWACS plane, which is built on the Bombardier platform, although it hasn’t been formally announced. I’ve been hoping for this since the new defence strategy that came out under Trudeau called for AWACS but at the time it seemed we would get bullied into buying the Americans’ Boeing E7 Wedgetail since Uk and Australia operate it and NATO and France had it on order. But then once Trump drama started, began to suspect we wouldn’t be buying it. Then the USAF cancelled its E7 program this summer and it was supposed to be the “anchor customer”, totally screwing over UK Australia and the few other countries that have already bought tiny fleets of E7s. France has now cancelled its E7 order and switched to GlobalEye and Melanie Joly has been name dropping it in most of her speeches about building up Canadian industry so I’m convinced now we will be getting it also. NATO has cancelled its E7 order and is shopping for an alternative and GlobalEye is the only option while Germany has said it is eyeing the plane as well plus a fleet of other bombardier aircraft No surprise in any way. CAE is the worlds largest flight simulator manufacturer in the world. It makes them foe almost all Air Forces and airlines in the world. based on its market leadership in civil and defense flight simulators and aviation training services. 41 minutes ago, John Stone said: The U.S. is the backbone of NATO? Canada does not have the luxury of being effective supporting NATO (U.S.) while playing politics, international or domestic. For Canada, diversity in platforms is weakness - not strength. And that includes River Class destroyers fitment CCS / weapons suite, and subs. But hey, that's what politicians do. $$ Again...what are you saying??? 1 Quote You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to tell me what mine should be.
BeaverFever Posted November 23, 2025 Author Report Posted November 23, 2025 (edited) 14 hours ago, Army Guy said: No they don't have to be the same aircraft.....but how many are buying more 4.5 gen aircraft to replace older aircraft.....why is that...ever wonder why the gripen is lacking sales....Yes they are investing into gen 6 aircraft, but they have already purchased F-35 and no they are not buying a cheaper gen 4.5 to save on money.... 1) Those countries placed their F35 orders a long time ago and are still plagued with all kinds of reliability issues with their fleets 2) Those countries already have mixed fleets of 4.5 gen aircraft like Typhoon and Rafale, they don’t need to order more. Spain, Portugal and Switzerland have cancelled their F35 orders just this year. 14 hours ago, Army Guy said: Yes the old adage of the military wants the shiniest most expensive US kit.... I mean why would they want the best equipment it is only their life's that are at stake....And yet our new subs are either German, or South Korean, our new frigate ships are British designs , our Main battle tanks are German. Your message comes in loud and clear, you don't trust our own military leaders to make the best choices....again why waste all the effort in having the military pick out specs and then test this equipment when we could just have a vote and All Canadians could pick on what they like.... US doesn’t make non-nuclear subs or Frigates (even they are using the European FREMM design for their new Constellation Class program) and I bet our military would prefer Abrams if the government would let them. It’s been widely reported that they are very cozy with the American military and their defence lobbyists and look up to Americans and the cool big brother they want to impress and emulate. And no, technically speaking its not the generals and admirals whose lives are on the line. Military answers to the civilian government, they have their own agenda and biases and they’re spending other peoples’ money. They are not concerned with broader geopolitical issues or guarding against US political economic and technological dominance of Canada. They place all their emphasis on the high-end war fighting end of the threat spectrum and pay little attention to whether it is wasteful to ise this high-eng gear for the other end of the spectrum where it will actually be used in real world operations for 90%+ of its service life. Furthermore the era of NATO countries being nothing more than an add-on accessory for America’s next war of choice is coming to an end. NATO nations are realizing they need capabilities that can be used independently of USA. That next war in Europe you mention may see Americans sitting on the sidelines or even rooting for the other side. Again Im not saying ZERO F-35s, Im saying mixed fleet. Edited November 23, 2025 by BeaverFever Quote
BeaverFever Posted November 23, 2025 Author Report Posted November 23, 2025 (edited) 4 minutes ago, ExFlyer said: No surprise in any way. CAE is the worlds largest flight simulator manufacturer in the world. It makes them foe almost all Air Forces and airlines in the world. based on its market leadership in civil and defense flight simulators and aviation training services. Yeah I agree CAE is the natural choice in any event, just calling out the timing right on the heels of the big Swedish state visit and the fact that it also signals that more GlobalEye orders are expected soon. Edited November 23, 2025 by BeaverFever 1 Quote
Venandi Posted November 23, 2025 Report Posted November 23, 2025 (edited) 53 minutes ago, BeaverFever said: If it’s not obvious to anyone yet, Canada will be getting the Saab GlobalEye AWACS plane, which is built on the Bombardier platform, although it hasn’t been formally announced. Considering it... and unless you have an inside scoop to share it actually isn't that obvious. Manning the new UAV/UAS arrivals, 16 P8s, AWACS, AAR resources and a mixed fighter fleet might prove a bit taxing "if it's not obvious to anyone yet." Growing the capability and depth of experience that goes along with these things is thirsty work. If you need help with it (and I think you will), my flying suit is still hanging in the closet... it has all the shiny badges intact and fits just as well as the day I walked out the main gate (for what I thought would be the last time). If you have a course date I can be there in 45 minutes.... Blondie not included but the rest of the crew has agreed to pitch up with me. Edited November 23, 2025 by Venandi 1 Quote
BeaverFever Posted November 23, 2025 Author Report Posted November 23, 2025 15 hours ago, Army Guy said: Most European NATO countries are preparing for war...NATO predicts within 5 years Also, we’re not going to have fully operational F35s in that timeframe anyways, currently F-35 has a 50% availability rate due to glitches and extensive maintenance requirements. . Gripen is the only one who said they could start delivering fully operational aircraft in 3-5 years. Nobody knows when the F35s current glitches and reliability issues will be solved. 1 Quote
BeaverFever Posted November 23, 2025 Author Report Posted November 23, 2025 12 minutes ago, Venandi said: Considering it... and unless you have an inside scoop to share it actually isn't that obvious. Manning the new UAV/UAS arrivals, 16 P8s, AWACS, AAR resources and a mixed fighter fleet might prove a bit taxing "if it's not obvious to anyone yet." Growing the capability and depth of experience that goes along with these things is thirsty work. If you need help with it (and I think you will), my flying suit is still hanging in the closet... it has all the shiny badges intact and fits just as well as the day I walked out the main gate (for what I thought would be the last time). If you have a course date I can be there in 45 minutes.... Blondie not included but the rest of the crew has agreed to pitch up with me. I think you will hear an announcement in the near future. Im not saying there won’t be recruiting and training challenges that’s a given for anything considering the state of the CAF but I am sure we will sign a deal soon. 1 Quote
Venandi Posted November 23, 2025 Report Posted November 23, 2025 12 minutes ago, BeaverFever said: Im not saying there won’t be recruiting and training challenges that’s a given for anything considering the state of the CAF but I am sure we will sign a deal soon. Cool, I currently self identify as 21. Blondie says it better than I do.... "call me." 1 Quote
ExFlyer Posted November 23, 2025 Report Posted November 23, 2025 35 minutes ago, Venandi said: Cool, I currently self identify as 21. Blondie says it better than I do.... "call me." If you were military at all, you are, or should be, aware that the delivery takes years and planning and training for new equipment will be done. There is no Amazon for military devices that promise overnight delivery. 1 Quote You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to tell me what mine should be.
I am Groot Posted November 23, 2025 Report Posted November 23, 2025 So it looks like the military just got 52 more aircraft. For free! DND will be taking over the aircraft from Transport Canada for a reason no one seems willing to explain, but it seems obvious to me. It's another way of 'increasing' DND's budget without actually paying anything extra or buying anything. So on paper, our 'military' budget just grew without costing us anything. More accounting games from the Liberals. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/transport-surveillance-environment-drones-defence-9.6982250#:~:text=Show More-,Transport Canada will be surrendering most — if not all — of,in the recent federal budget. 1 Quote "A civilization is not destroyed by wicked men; it is destroyed by weak men who cannot defend what is good.” — G. K. Chesterton
John Stone Posted November 23, 2025 Report Posted November 23, 2025 13 minutes ago, I am Groot said: So it looks like the military just got 52 more aircraft. For free! DND will be taking over the aircraft from Transport Canada for a reason no one seems willing to explain, but it seems obvious to me. It's another way of 'increasing' DND's budget without actually paying anything extra or buying anything. So on paper, our 'military' budget just grew without costing us anything. More accounting games from the Liberals. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/transport-surveillance-environment-drones-defence-9.6982250#:~:text=Show More-,Transport Canada will be surrendering most — if not all — of,in the recent federal budget. .......... akin to the Canadian Coast Guard amalgamating with the RCN? (Sept 2025) Quote
eyeball Posted November 23, 2025 Report Posted November 23, 2025 12 minutes ago, John Stone said: .......... akin to the Canadian Coast Guard amalgamating with the RCN? (Sept 2025) The CCG is still a civilian agency and probably remain as far from combat as it did fisheries when the DFO and CCG amalgamated. The Tanu went from being painted gray to red and white is about all we noticed on the West coast. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
ExFlyer Posted November 23, 2025 Report Posted November 23, 2025 5 hours ago, John Stone said: The U.S. is the backbone of NATO? Canada does not have the luxury of being effective supporting NATO (U.S.) while playing politics, international or domestic. For Canada, diversity in platforms is weakness - not strength. And that includes River Class destroyers fitment CCS / weapons suite, and subs. But hey, that's what politicians do. $$ Yes it is...always has been. Our concerns and issue are far more NORAD than NATO. As for the naval fleet, it needs to have CCS (command and control systems) as well as AGS (Agis combat systems) in order to be combat ready and functional with allies. As I have said all along. Dual fleets are problematic and, European fleets are financially and logistically disastrous. It seems to me that politicians are not the ones making issues of these things..it is social media LOL 1 Quote You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to tell me what mine should be.
ExFlyer Posted November 23, 2025 Report Posted November 23, 2025 1 hour ago, I am Groot said: So it looks like the military just got 52 more aircraft. For free! DND will be taking over the aircraft from Transport Canada for a reason no one seems willing to explain, but it seems obvious to me. It's another way of 'increasing' DND's budget without actually paying anything extra or buying anything. So on paper, our 'military' budget just grew without costing us anything. More accounting games from the Liberals. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/transport-surveillance-environment-drones-defence-9.6982250#:~:text=Show More-,Transport Canada will be surrendering most — if not all — of,in the recent federal budget. There are many things that Transport Canada does with its aircraft and systems that can be very useful to the Military. Just the offshore aerial surveillance that they do that can be a useful tool as well as airspace guidance and control and runway and landing systems operations and maintenance. Shifting responsibility does in no way lessen the cost of operations. 1 Quote You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to tell me what mine should be.
John Stone Posted November 23, 2025 Report Posted November 23, 2025 23 minutes ago, ExFlyer said: Yes it is...always has been. Our concerns and issue are far more NORAD than NATO. As for the naval fleet, it needs to have CCS (command and control systems) as well as AGS (Agis combat systems) in order to be combat ready and functional with allies. As I have said all along. Dual fleets are problematic and, European fleets are financially and logistically disastrous. It seems to me that politicians are not the ones making issues of these things..it is social media LOL Suppose it could now be argued that NORAD is far more an issue for the U.S. than NATO? CCS will be the heart and soul of the River Class Destroyers....... What will they marry to it ........... don't want to be too offensive, eh? All that being said I'll be surprised if we get the full planned complement. ............ maybe defer to a few icebreakers for the CCG/RCN config. Quote
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