Canadian Defence News

[BeaverFever]

1 hour ago, PIK said:

What have the libs purchased so far, that's not yrs away. The defence minister was canned for wanting to spend on the military.

I don’t think he’s referring to JTs government specifically but rather that most of the major procurements of recent decades came under one Liberal government or another from Pierre Trudeau,  Chretien, Martin or JT.  But consider that in the last 60 years since Diefenbaker left office in 1963, only 2 Conservative PMs have governed Canada for a combined total of less than 20 years (not counting Joe Clark’s 9-month minority government in 1979-80) so they haven’t really had the same kick at the can  

That said, because procurement takes many years or even decades to complete from initial proposal to delivery, multiple successive governments inherit or pass along a procurement project and are ultimately responsible for some stage of a project’s proposal, continuation, alteration, or cancellation. Some projects are initiated by outgoing governments as little more than a tripwire for the incoming party, for example IIRC the outgoing Mulroney/Campbell government only initiated a project for a nuclear submarine fleet and maritime helicopter replacement in order to saddle the Chretien Liberals with expensive projects that would either hamstring their budgets or force them to cancel with controversy. 
 

 

[BeaverFever]

L3Harris delivers first aircraft of Hornet Extension Project

BY SKIES MAGAZINE | AUGUST 3, 2023

Estimated reading time  4 minutes, 21 seconds. 

Mirabel, Quebec-based L3Harris announced on Aug. 2 that it delivered the inaugural fighter aircraft as part of the Hornet Extension Project (HEP) for the Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF). The upgraded CF-188 Hornet aircraft was delivered this past June from L3Harris’s Canadian fighter aircraft center of excellence facility in Mirabel.

The company is responsible for much of the design and all of the aircraft’s modifications and upgrades associated with the HEP. The project aims to enhance the RCAF’s aging Hornet fleet to enable the aircraft to meet operational commitments, including those to the North American Aerospace Defence Command (NORAD) and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO), until the forthcoming F-35 next-generation fighter aircraft reaches full operational capability in 2032.

The Hornet Extension Project aims to enhance the RCAF’s aging CF-188 fleet to enable the aircraft to meet operational commitments. Mike Reyno Photo

The Hornet Extension Project includes a two-phased approach. In the initial phase, all 94 Hornets within the fleet will receive a series of upgrades, including the integration of automatic dependent surveillance-broadcast (ADS-B) to replace the existing transponder; the integration of Honeywell GPS/INS systems; the integration of Collins Aerospace AN/ARC-210 RT-2036 (Gen 6) radios and airborne Joint Tactical Radios; upgrades to the sniper targeting pod; enhanced mission computers and data transfer units; and updated software for the Advanced Distributed Combat Training System (ADCTS) for networked flight simulation training.

“These adjustments will allow the CF-188s to continue to utilize civilian airspace in the future and to remain interoperable with Canada’s allies,” L3Harris said.

In the second phase of the HEP, 36 select aircraft will receive upgraded hardware and software to improve their combat capability. Most noteworthy is the replacement of the current APG-73 radar with the Raytheon APG-79(V)4 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar.

Moreover, the select Hornets will receive new and advanced weaponry, including the Sidewinder AIM-9X Block II air-to-air short-range missile, the AIM-120D advanced medium-range air-to-air missile, and the AGM-154 Joint Standoff Weapon (JSOW), which is an air-to-surface glide bomb with a striking unclassified published range of at least 100 kilometers.

“L3Harris is Canada’s only fighter aircraft center of excellence,” said Ugo Paniconi, L3Harris’s general manager. “This contract stands as a testament to our unwavering performance and dedication to our customers’ mission. For over three decades, we have faithfully maintained Canada’s sole fighter aircraft fleet, and we eagerly anticipate the opportunity to continue this rich legacy of in-service support for Canada’s future F-35 fleet.”

The ambitious timeline of the HEP includes initial operating capability for six upgraded aircraft by the close of 2023. The fleet is expected to be fully operational by June 2025.

In an interview with Skies in late 2022, RCAF Commander LGen Eric Kenny noted that the project “gives our aircrew and ground crew training on how to use some of these more advanced systems so that when we step into the future fighter, it should be more seamless.”
 

 

https://skiesmag.com/news/l3harris-delivers-first-aircraft-hornet-extension-project/?utm_source=skies-daily-news-top-story&utm_campaign=skies-daily-news&utm_medium=email&utm_term=top-story&utm_content=V1

Edited August 3, 2023 by BeaverFever

[ExFlyer]

5 hours ago, PIK said:

What have the libs purchased so far, that's not yrs away. The defence minister was canned for wanting to spend on the military.

All major crown purchases takes years and years. After specs are written and vetted, and request for proposals are issued and the required amendments to the RFP's based on return comments and issues and then actual call for contracts and all bids come in and all bids evaluated and then the winning bid sent to the various departments of interest then the issuance of the contract and then and only then can production start. Then a delivery scheduled is proposed and debated and approved eventually, years later we may get something that may already out of date.

The sad thing is that after all the fingers in the pie, the horse the military wanted came out looking like a camel.

[ExFlyer]

3 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

National Defence executives rake in almost $3.5 million in bonuses

.....

 

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/national-defence-executives-rake-in-almost-3-5-million-in-bonuses

Just so some are aware, the Canadian Military Senior Officers also get "bonus" pay.

All senior public servants in every department get annual bonus pay based on self established  professional targets, and goals.

[PIK]

Time for some sole sourcing. Like others have done.

2 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Just so some are aware, the Canadian Military Senior Officers also get "bonus" pay.

All senior public servants in every department get annual bonus pay based on self established  professional targets, and goals.

Not as bad as the bank of Canada  bonuses during covid. Lol

Edited August 3, 2023 by PIK

[ExFlyer]

39 minutes ago, PIK said:

Time for some sole sourcing. Like others have done.

Not as bad as the bank of Canada  bonuses during covid. Lol

Maybe not but, just to show all public servant senior staff (EX level and above) and as well as senior military officers (Colonel and above) get annual bonuses.

Bonuses are a given by all large companies and corporations at a certain level, be they cash or stock options

Edited August 3, 2023 by ExFlyer

[BeaverFever]

1 minute ago, ExFlyer said:

Maybe not but, just to show all public servant senior staff (EX level and above) and as well as senior military officers (Colonel and above) get annual bonuses.

Im my role I’ve seen the salaries and bonuses of top executives at my employers (Canadian owned companies, 1,000-2,000 employees) which is a fraction the size of DND  

 Only the salaries mentioned for “Deputy minister” are comparable to private sector executives Ive seen, the rest are way low. Some of the “executive” salaries and bonuses he mentions are comparable to mine and I am a rank-and file non-manager, non-IT, generic corporate drone.  The highest level executives in my experience get anywhere from mid-200k to mid 300k, with CEO in the low $500k and all get short term and long term bonuses equal to or slightly below salary. A corporation the size of DND would be paying its executives in the millions Im sure. 

[ExFlyer]

6 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Im my role I’ve seen the salaries and bonuses of top executives at my employers (Canadian owned companies, 1,000-2,000 employees) which is a fraction the size of DND  

 Only the salaries mentioned for “Deputy minister” are comparable to private sector executives Ive seen, the rest are way low. Some of the “executive” salaries and bonuses he mentions are comparable to mine and I am a rank-and file non-manager, non-IT, generic corporate drone.  The highest level executives in my experience get anywhere from mid-200k to mid 300k, with CEO in the low $500k and all get short term and long term bonuses equal to or slightly below salary. A corporation the size of DND would be paying its executives in the millions Im sure. 

There are about 150 Generals and above and I cannot find the Colonel (Captain in the Navy) numbers but suspect that would be around 400. Military total about 68,000.

As for public service EX and above, nearest I can figure is about 15,000. (about 320,000 total public servants)

https://www.canada.ca/en/treasury-board-secretariat/services/innovation/human-resources-statistics/population-federal-public-service-executive-level.html

 

[Army Guy]

10 hours ago, PIK said:

What have the libs purchased so far, that's not yrs away. The defense minister was canned for wanting to spend on the military.

Overall most of the military purchases have come or where originated by the liberal governments. I'm not saying they are all good purchases, but when you look back at a lot of the purchases, most are liberal. Like i said it left a shitty taste in my mouth as well, but doing some research i found that the liberals have their names on the most expenditures. 

It should also be noted that todays liberal purchases are not becasue they like the military, but rather they could no longer wait, and needed to be purchased yesterday. 

And it is very true, most of the recent purchases are years away, and could be canceled, or reconfigured at any time, but they are liberal originated ...

[Dougie93]

20 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

I thought you said the only time you ever saw him is when you walked past his room in NDMC and all you did was nod to him?

"he wasn't completely unaware, he didn't know who I was, he just stared at me with a vacant look in his eyes

I wasn't expecting to see him,  I just walked past an open room and glanced in

then after a couple steps, I thought, holy f*ck that was Matchee

so then I looked back in and he stared at me

so I just nodded involuntarily in the face of him

and he nodded back without any real recognition "

I knew who he was before Somalia

I had friends who were serving with 2 Commando on predeployment for Op Deliverance

2 Commando had a cache

everybody knew who was in 2 Commando, it was only a company sized formation

Matchee didn't know who I was, but I was aware of him

not as a raving psychopath mind you

afiak he had never been charged before Somalia

2 Commando was elite, we viewed them all as being super soldiers

I didn't nod at him as if he was supposed to know who I was

I was just standing in the doorway gawking,  then I nodded at him awkwardly

it wasn't a sign of approval

it was more like "excuse me' since I was staring at someone in a hospital room

I wasn't there to see him. I was visiting someone else

they just happened to be on the same floor a few doors down from each other

when I got to my buddies room I said "I just saw Clayton Matchee down the hall !"

it wasn't that we approved of Matchee, it was just shocking to encounter him like that

I didn't know he was at NDMC, I had no idea

I don't "hero worship" Matchee nor anything like that

it was just that he was so infamous by then, I was taken aback

bear in mind that the Airborne Regiment had just been disbanded

so this was still in the throes of the Somalia Affair

and it's true, that is a Confederate flag behind Matchee

and that's an official photo taken by the army

which seems absolutely crazy now, but that was the times

there were all sorts of crazy things going on in the army during the Decade of Darkness

looking back now it is surreal

but we didn't have any perspective, we were just privates & corporals

we only knew what we were told, and we did what we were told to do

because if we didn't, we would be severely punished, from defaulters to detention barracks

we certainly did idolize the Airborne Regiment as being the best of the best

then we were told they were the worst of the worst and the Regiment had to be disbanded

we were simply stunned and disillusioned

Somalia changed everything, it was a catastrophe for the army

we could not understand how this had happened

that the Airborne Regiment was ordered to torture prisoners

resulting in this horrific murder

then the chain of command tried to cover it up

then the military doctor blew the whistle when he saw the body

then it all unravelled in front of us in shocking detail

yet the army was fully tasked in Croatia & Bosnia

so there wasn't even time to process it all

it was just on to predeployment training for the next tour

Edited August 4, 2023 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

On 8/2/2023 at 8:20 PM, Army Guy said:

You've said this many time dougie, once a Royal always a Royal, our duty is never done, you may be retired but duty and loyalty to the Regiment is a life long endevours. My duty will end when I've taken my last breath. Be it here on this forum and others, or through the many veterans groups i take part in...

Will i make a difference, maybe not, i will never know if i do not try....after all the Regiments moto is "Never pass a fault"...

 

but it's not a question of just spending more money at DND

because that money never trickles down to the infantry nor the veterans

meanwhile, the infantry is Canada's actual fighting force

as Canada's principle strategy is to send infantry battalions on overseas deployments

and those Peacekeeping/Peacemaking  missions last for decades, rotation after rotation

with one third of the force provided by Militia Augmentees

so that's what Canada does in terms of operations

but that's not where the money gets spent

you said the infantry battalions only have two platoons per rifle company

so the army is hollowed out, with aging and/or inadequate kit;  LAV/TAPV

while DND spends tens of billions on F-35 & Airbus A330's

so this is the crippling effects of the Peacekeeping myth

Canada incited to send troops overseas to intervene in foreign wars

with champagne tastes on a beer budget

where the government spends billions on weapons systems it never uses, while the troops go without

so I would be in favour of spending more on the army, the infantry, the militia and veterans affairs

but I simply know that isn't where the money is going to go

and I don't have a solution

my friends & colleagues keep getting shot or blown up riding in jeeps on overseas tours

and these missions end up being catastrophes for the army, like Somalia or Afghanistan

then the veterans end up broken & homeless in the streets, or worse

while the government buys F-35s to do domestic air policing for NORAD

it never changes and I don't know how it could be changed

furthermore, Canada is spiralling into an inflationary debt crisis

the federal & provincial debts are recklessly unsustainable

thus at some point government spending will have to be massively curtailed

so in actual fact, Canada can't even afford F-35 & A330 to do domestic air policing

although it will be the army budget which gets cut to the bone, just like in the Decade of Darkness

Never Pass a Fault applies to things we are trained to correct

but this is something which is deeply ingrained into the governance of Canada

so I cannot come up with any viable procedure to fix something

when that something is just the nature of a thing

it is not actually broken, this is just how Canada does things, and always has

for over a hundred years, right back to Sam Hughes & the Ross Rifle

your solution was that the American President has to threaten Canada into fixing itself

first of all, that makes the case that Canada is an American protectorate for all intents & puposes

which does the opposite of defending Canadian sovereignty

but moreover, as I say, that would just backfire

that wouldn't fix anything, that would throw gasoline on the fire

Edited August 4, 2023 by Dougie93

[ExFlyer]

11 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

I knew who he was before Somalia

I had friends who were serving with 2 Commando on predeployment for Op Deliverance

2 Commando had a cache

everybody knew who was in 2 Commando, it was only a company sized formation

Matchee didn't know who I was, but I was aware of him

not as a raving psychopath mind you

afiak he had never been charged before Somalia

2 Commando was elite, we viewed them all as being super soldiers

I didn't nod at him as if he was supposed to know who I was

I was just standing in the doorway gawking,  then I nodded at him awkwardly

it wasn't a sign of approval

it was more like "excuse me' since I was staring at someone in a hospital room

I wasn't there to see him. I was visiting someone else

they just happened to be on the same floor a few doors down from each other

when I got to my buddies room I said "I just saw Clayton Matchee down the hall !"

it wasn't that we approved of Matchee, it was just shocking to encounter him like that

I didn't know he was at NDMC, I had no idea

I don't "hero worship" Matchee nor anything like that

it was just that he was so infamous by then, I was taken aback

bear in mind that the Airborne Regiment had just been disbanded

so this was still in the throes of the Somalia Affair

and it's true, that is a Confederate flag behind Matchee

and that's an official photo taken by the army

which seems absolutely crazy now, but that was the times

there were all sorts of crazy things going on in the army during the Decade of Darkness

looking back now it is surreal

but we didn't have any perspective, we were just privates & corporals

we only knew what we were told, and we did what we were told to do

because if we didn't, we would be severely punished, from defaulters to detention barracks

we certainly did idolize the Airborne Regiment as being the best of the best

then we were told they were the worst of the worst and the Regiment had to be disbanded

we were simply stunned and disillusioned

Somalia changed everything, it was a catastrophe for the army

we could not understand how this had happened

that the Airborne Regiment was ordered to torture prisoners

resulting in this horrific murder

then the chain of command tried to cover it up

then the military doctor blew the whistle when he saw the body

then it all unravelled in front of us in shocking detail

yet the army was fully tasked in Croatia & Bosnia

so there wasn't even time to process it all

it was just on to predeployment training for the next tour

Lots of banter.

I was responding to your statement "

"but having met him, I don't think of him like that

he was honestly like an oversized boy,  he was immature

so I remember him as being a tall skinny socially awkward Indian kid who got picked on by the Commando"

 when in fact, you only walked by his room at NDMC.

Stop deflecting and making excuses, he was and is guilty.... period.

[ExFlyer]

5 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

but it's not a question of just spending more money at DND

because that money never trickles down to the infantry nor the veterans

meanwhile, the infantry is Canada's actual fighting force

as Canada's principle strategy is to send infantry battalions on overseas deployments

and those Peacekeeping/Peacemaking  missions last for decades, rotation after rotation

with one third of the force provided by Militia Augmentees

so that's what Canada does in terms of operations

but that's not where the money gets spent

you said the infantry battalions only have two platoons per rifle company

so the army is hollowed out, with aging and/or inadequate kit;  LAV/TAPV

while DND spends tens of billions on F-35 & Airbus A330's

so this is the crippling effects of the Peacekeeping myth

Canada incited to send troops overseas to intervene in foreign wars

with champagne tastes on a beer budget

where the government spends billions on weapons systems it never uses, while the troops go without

so I would be in favour of spending more on the army, the infantry, the militia and veterans affairs

but I simply know that isn't where the money is going to go

and I don't have a solution

my friends & colleagues keep getting shot or blown up riding in jeeps on overseas tours

and these missions end up being catastrophes for the army, like Somalia or Afghanistan

then the veterans end up broken & homeless in the streets, or worse

while the government buys F-35s to do domestic air policing for NORAD

it never changes and I don't know how it could be changed

furthermore, Canada is spiralling into an inflationary debt crisis

the federal & provincial debts are recklessly unsustainable

thus at some point government spending will have to be massively curtailed

so in actual fact, Canada can't even afford F-35 & A330 to do domestic air policing

although it will be the army budget which gets cut to the bone, just like in the Decade of Darkness

Never Pass a Fault applies to things we are trained to correct

but this is something which is deeply ingrained into the governance of Canada

so I cannot come up with any viable procedure to fix something

when that something is just the nature of a thing

it is not actually broken, this is just how Canada does things, and always has

for over a hundred years, right back to Sam Hughes & the Ross Rifle

your solution was that the American President has to threaten Canada into fixing itself

first of all, that makes the case that Canada is an American protectorate for all intents & puposes

which does the opposite of defending Canadian sovereignty

but moreover, as I say, that would just backfire

that wouldn't fix anything, that would throw gasoline on the fire

While you do bring up points, your view and understanding is very narrow minded.

You are upset the Army is not getting upgrades yet, they are as well.

Your try to compare costs but you cannot . A fighter aircraft and all its technology, test equipment, maintenance,  and trainng cost far more than anything the Army has. It costs what it costs.

To say the Army is left behind and gets nothing , I dare say the Griffon Helicopters in the Tactical Helicopter Squadrons are for the Army. So were the Chinooks that were leased and eventually purchased. Also, how do you think your troops get to where they need to be or are dispatched? Certainly not in economy seats on Air Canada. The Airbus spends as much, if not more time transporting the troops. The new Airbus will also be able to do air to air refuelling, making it multi tasking. Oh and lets not forget the Transport Squadrons of Hercules that also do so much troop transport and training.

As for the F-35, like it or not, Canada has to have something to defend it's sovereignty.

While the Army does deploy at government whim, it is fully supported by the rest of the Canadian Armed Forces. The Army does not stand alone.

[Dougie93]

8 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Lots of banter.

I was responding to your statement "

"but having met him, I don't think of him like that

he was honestly like an oversized boy,  he was immature

so I remember him as being a tall skinny socially awkward Indian kid who got picked on by the Commando"

 when in fact, you only walked by his room at NDMC.

Stop deflecting and making excuses, he was and is guilty.... period.

met him as in the meal line at the eating mess, or playing pool in the games room at Sassy's

he wouldn't remember me, I was a "Leg" as the Airborne called us, beneath notice

but I was paying close attention to him, because he was a 2 Commando Mcpl

and guys I knew in 2 Commando told me about him, what his story was

I didn't say he wasn't guilty

but he didn't strike me as being a homicidal maniac, and nobody said that he was

he was a qualified Section Commander who was certified fit for duty by predeployment training

when I heard that he had murdered someone in theatre, then immediately tried to kill himself

that made no sense, so my first question was actually : 'did he have some sort of psychotic break ?"

[Dougie93]

9 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

 The Army does not stand alone.

but the army does fight alone

the CF-18s for example have never once provided close air support to the army in the field

the navy is not even capable of providing any support to the army in the field

the Griffons did fly some escort overwatch for the army in Afghanistan near the end

but I am not aware of them providing any fire support, since they were only armed with machine guns anyways

the only close support of the army in the field was provided by the Americans, F-16, A-10 & Apache

and because the Americans are not actually integrated into the Canadian chain of command

that resulted in two catastrophic blue on blue fratricide incidents

the American F-16 bombing 3 VP at Tarnak Farms

the American A-10 strafing 8 Platoon, Charles Company, 1 RCR at Op Medusa

the CAF does not fight in combined arms, it is not an integrated force

only the bureaucracy was amalgamated, the operational aspects never were

Edited August 4, 2023 by Dougie93

[Army Guy]

13 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

but it's not a question of just spending more money at DND

because that money never trickles down to the infantry nor the veterans

meanwhile, the infantry is Canada's actual fighting force

as Canada's principle strategy is to send infantry battalions on overseas deployments

and those Peacekeeping/Peacemaking  missions last for decades, rotation after rotation

with one third of the force provided by Militia Augmentees

so that's what Canada does in terms of operations

but that's not where the money gets spent

you said the infantry battalions only have two platoons per rifle company

so the army is hollowed out, with aging and/or inadequate kit;  LAV/TAPV

while DND spends tens of billions on F-35 & Airbus A330's

so this is the crippling effects of the Peacekeeping myth

Canada incited to send troops overseas to intervene in foreign wars

with champagne tastes on a beer budget

where the government spends billions on weapons systems it never uses, while the troops go without

so I would be in favour of spending more on the army, the infantry, the militia and veterans affairs

but I simply know that isn't where the money is going to go

and I don't have a solution

my friends & colleagues keep getting shot or blown up riding in jeeps on overseas tours

and these missions end up being catastrophes for the army, like Somalia or Afghanistan

then the veterans end up broken & homeless in the streets, or worse

while the government buys F-35s to do domestic air policing for NORAD

it never changes and I don't know how it could be changed

furthermore, Canada is spiralling into an inflationary debt crisis

the federal & provincial debts are recklessly unsustainable

thus at some point government spending will have to be massively curtailed

so in actual fact, Canada can't even afford F-35 & A330 to do domestic air policing

although it will be the army budget which gets cut to the bone, just like in the Decade of Darkness

Never Pass a Fault applies to things we are trained to correct

but this is something which is deeply ingrained into the governance of Canada

so I cannot come up with any viable procedure to fix something

when that something is just the nature of a thing

it is not actually broken, this is just how Canada does things, and always has

for over a hundred years, right back to Sam Hughes & the Ross Rifle

your solution was that the American President has to threaten Canada into fixing itself

first of all, that makes the case that Canada is an American protectorate for all intents & puposes

which does the opposite of defending Canadian sovereignty

but moreover, as I say, that would just backfire

that wouldn't fix anything, that would throw gasoline on the fire

The whole issue regardless of how you boil it down is always funding...or how it is allocated...why is there a lack of equipment funding, and why is our purchasing system so complicated, why is their lack of training , becasue of the lack of funding and how it is accounted for and spent. It seems everything always loops around to lack of funding...

As for Canada's deployment strategy is based on many criteria, the largest one is funding or how much is it going to cost, ground troops are the least expensive, hence why you get more bang for your buck with ground troops. But that has not always been the case we have deployed fighter jets, to Italy for the Bosnia operations, Libya, Kosovo, plus more... not to mention most other air force assets, like airbus, Hercs, Helos...Navy is always deployed some where, these tours don't carry the same media weight as ground troops  but they are there all the same. 

Reserve augmentation plays key roles in ground operations , for many reasons, lack of Regular force pers, so they are needed to plug holes in TOE, but also allow Regular force pers to rest from tour exhaustion... more importantly it is how how current system is set up, plus it gives reserves training opportunities, and deployment opportunities in real life missions which allows them to take this new found knowledge and experience back to their units to train their peers... There has been very few circumstances where Reserve units have been deployed as a whole to world missions, instead they are deployed as fillers, or replacements...it is just the way the system is designed for todays world...

The military is set up like rock paper scissors all 3 elements are needed to ensure success on the ground. 

I mentioned the US president, becasue internally, Canada we have tried almost everything in the book to fix the military question, and it has all failed...what is needed is for the US to poke Canada in the ass to get moving it is a slow process, but there is movement...

 

 

[BeaverFever]

7 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

but I am not aware of them providing any fire support, since they were only armed with machine guns anyways

the only close support of the army in the field was provided by the Americans, F-16, A-10 & Apache

and because the Americans are not actually integrated into the Canadian chain of command

that resulted in two catastrophic blue on blue fratricide incidents

the American F-16 bombing 3 VP at Tarnak Farms

The F-16 that hit Tarnak wasn’t tasked to support CDN troops it was just doing its own USAF shit…combat air patrol.. and ignorant of the Canadians below. (Pilot was actually US Air National Guard). 
 

To your other comments, believe it or not RCN only gained sea-to-shore precision strike capability in recent years, with the first test firing of the upgraded Harpoon Block II missile  only having only occurred in 2016.  The new CSC (whenever it’s available in the next decade) will have not one but 2 missiles capable of striking land targets: Tomahawks and NSM  (the latter is primarily anti-ship but has secondary land attack capability).  
 

I might be wrong but I also believe CF-18s precision guided munition options are also limited to fairly close-range GBUs, which made leaders squirrely.  This year some of the Hornets are getting an upgrade which allow them to use stand-off weapons like JSOW

 

The point is that lack of funding to RCN and RCAF also has hampered their ability to support the Army. 

Edited August 5, 2023 by BeaverFever

[Dougie93]

7 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

The F-16 that hit Tarnak wasn’t tasked to support CDN troops it was just doing its own USAF shit…combat air patrol.. and ignorant of the Canadians below. (Pilot was actually US Air National Guard).

the point is general lack of awareness and integration

there is no Canadian headquarters deployed, the Canadians had no assigned sector of operations

the Americans don't really know what to do with this single battalion, since it has limited capabiities

so the Canadians end up conducting a range practice at night in the middle of nowhere

that's not something an American unit would be doing at that location

so the Canadians unwittingly project the profile of insurgents

three Carl Gustavs firing from top of a berm in the middle of the night in a warzone

of course that looks like MANPAD's to an American pilot

Canada doesn't train to work in America's massive military complex

the Americans don't train to have Canadians wandering around in their AO's like nomads

sending tiny units of Canadians as tag alongs with the Americans can be dangerous

the two military cultures are quite different, operating on vastly different scales

the Canadians do things the Americans are not expecting

the Americans do things the Canadians are not expecting

the Canadians are never truly integrated

they are an afterthought, the Americans aren't paying attention them

similar situation with 8 Platoon at Op Medusa

probably not a good idea to light a fire and stand around it

while air strikes are being conducted in close

but Canadians don't work in these environments, so it doesn't occur to them

in both cases, the Canadians are acting as if this is exercise at Camp Wainwright

since this was the first shooting war Canadians had been in since Korea

the Canadian Army is inexperienced by American standards

Canadians are not trained nor equipped nor scaled to play in the big leagues

it's the same thing with using G-wagons as "light armoured vehicles"

the Canadian chain of command is in Peacekeeping mode there

because for the decade prior to Afghanistan, that's all we did

train for Peacekeeping, where you could drive around the batlefield in an Iltis

Edited August 5, 2023 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

18 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

The point is that lack of funding to RCN and RCAF also has hampered their ability to support the Army. 

you are vastly overstating the "lack of funding"

Canada spends 70-80% of what Australia spends

but that does not translate into 70-80% of Australia's capabilities, not even close

the Canadian Forces are structurally flawed, they don't actually have a plan, the model itself is dysfunctional

Amalgamation back in 1968 broke the Canadian military, by design, and it simply has never recovered

so the money does not go to combat power, for an army, navy & air force

instead the government just spends it on overhead & bureaucracy, in classic Canadian government fashion

you could spend 100% of what Australia spends, and that would never amount to aircraft carriers & SSNs

you would just have the fanciest staff headquarters in the world at Carling Campus

and very well appointed military bases which Canada's dwindling force could not even fill

you would get 12 useless AOPS patrol ships instead of 6, you wouldn't get LHD's

you would get  VVIP Airbus to fly the PM around, not E-7 Wedgetail

Canada would never buy Apache Attack Helicopters

not because they are expensive,

because Canada's leftist anti-American population would find that to be wasteful

since they are only for warfighting with the Americans, can't be used for Peacekeeping

Canada would not buy KF41 Lynx infantry fighting vehicles

again, "too aggressive" and not needed for Peacekeeping

again, it's not about the money, it all comes back to Canadian political culture

the purpose of the Canadian government is providing handouts to the Canadian population

the purpose of the Canadian military is to be morally superior to the Americans

thus the Canadian military is not capable of fighting wars ; not by mistake ; by design

again, I used to think like you, I used to say all the same things

until I realized ;  this is not incompetence, this is not about funding

rather Canada is deliberately sabotaging its own military, for ideological reasons

New Zealand does the same thing, for the same reasons

except in New Zealand's case it is because they are ant-Australian

but Canada is in essence a Giant New Zealand

Canada & New Zealand seek to differentiate themselves by supposed moral superiority

the most important thing to Canadians is that they not be mistaken for Americans

the most important thing to Kiwis is that they not be mistaken for Aussies

Brits & Aussies are warfighters, Canadians & Kiwis are "Peacekeepers"

Britain & Australia are fundamentally right wing martial cultures

Canada & New Zealand are fundamentally left wing pacifist cultures

culture is destiny

I never complained about how the Canadian taxpayer treated me as a Canadian soldier

we were the best paid army in the world then, we had the best food by far

our barracks were brand new and really nice, Y101 was a deluxe headquarters

Petwawa was a nice place to live, it's actually a beautiful place on the Ottawa river

same with Trenton, Trenton is cottage living in the Canadian Forces

the Americans would come up and marvel at how well we were treated

we were shocked to see what ghettos the American bases were

but I also knew, this is where the money goes, this is why we have ammo shortages

we have enough well appointed bases to house a million man army, for only 20,000 troops

Canada spends the money in Canada on Canadians ; regional employment & development

Edited August 5, 2023 by Dougie93

[BeaverFever]

1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

the point is general lack of awareness and integration

there is no Canadian headquarters deployed, the Canadians had no assigned sector of operations

the Americans don't really know what to do with this single battalion, since it has limited capabiities

so the Canadians end up conducting a range practice at night in the middle of nowhere

that's not something an American unit would be doing at that location

so the Canadians unwittingly project the profile of insurgents

three Carl Gustavs firing from top of a berm in the middle of the night in a warzone

of course that looks like MANPAD's to an American pilot

Canada doesn't train to work in America's massive military complex

the Americans don't train to have Canadians wandering around in their AO's like nomads

sending tiny units of Canadians as tag alongs with the Americans can be dangerous

the two military cultures are quite different, operating on vastly different scales

the Canadians do things the Americans are not expecting

the Americans do things the Canadians are not expecting

the Canadians are never truly integrated

they are an afterthought, the Americans aren't paying attention them

similar situation with 8 Platoon at Op Medusa

probably not a good idea to light a fire and stand around it

while air strikes are being conducted in close

but Canadians don't work in these environments, so it doesn't occur to them

in both cases, the Canadians are acting as if this is exercise at Camp Wainwright

while the Americans all around them are in war fighting mode

Yeah that might all be true but CDNs built their own gym and weightlifting set out of salvaged vehicle parts from a nearby scrapyard, that’s gotta count for something!

Seriously though, thanks for the interesting perspective, I never thought about it that way.  I know CDN troops were partially:primarily faulted for the a-10 incident, I wonder if any lessons learned have been applied in the nearly 20 years since.  
 

At Tarnak, the pilot was warned of friendlies in the area by his own controllers and permission to engage was denied but he disobeyed and rolled in anyways falsely claiming he was being fired upon and “self defence”. Wasn’t Tarnak right outside the KAF perimeter and an established and recognized allied live fire range? I’ve not read anything that the Canadians did anything improper there, AFAIK the US pilots and US co-ordination and control procedures were faulted  

 

 

[BeaverFever]

58 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

you are vastly overstating the "lack of funding"

Canada spends 70-80% of what Australia spends

but that does not translate into 70-80% of Australia's capabilities, not even close

the Canadian Forces are structurally flawed, they don't actually have a plan, the model itself is dysfunctional

Amalgamation back in 1968 broke the Canadian military, by design, and it simply has never recovered

so the money does go to combat power, for an army, navy & air force

instead the government just spends it on overhead & bureaucracy, in classic Canadian government fashion

you could spend 100% of what Australia spends, and that would never amount to aircraft carriers & SSNs

you would just have the fanciest staff headquarters in the world at Carling Campus

and very well appointed military bases which Canada's dwindling force could not even fill

you would get 12 useless AOPS patrol ships instead of 6, you wouldn't get LHD's

you would get  VVIP Airbus to fly the PM around, not E-7 Wedgetail

Canada would never buy Apache Attack Helicopters

not because they are expensive,

because Canada's leftist anti-American population would find that to be wasteful

since they are only for warfighting with the Americans, can't be used for Peacekeeping

Canada would not buy KF41 Lynx infantry fighting vehicles

again, "too aggressive" and not needed for Peacekeeping

again, it's not about the money, it all comes back to Canadian political culture

the purpose of the Canadian government is providing handouts to the Canadian population

the purpose of the Canadian military is to be morally superior to the Americans

thus the Canadian military is not capable of fighting wars ; not by mistake ; by design

Not entirely untrue but I would argue Canada doesn’t need LHDs or AWACS aircraft. Australia also has 5 dedicated VVIP aircraft, same as Canada : 2 Boeing 737 (compared to Canadas one Airbus) plus 3 Dassault Falcons. 
 

Interesting that you view the Wedgetail and LHDs as essential kit but not MRTT

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

 "that’s gotta count for something!

at the individual level, Canadian infantry really are world class

my friend who was killed at Tarnak Farms, Cpl Ainsworth Dyer

he was one of the finest men and soldiers you could ever meet

a 6'5" 225lb giant of a man, supremely strong & fit

he was brave, he was conscientious, he was fundamentally good

he could crush another man with his bare hands easily

but he was gentle giant, he was so good natured

he was in my Section in the Militia, he lived in my neighbourhood, we used to party at the clubs together

then he went Direct Entry to the PPCLI

everybody loved him, in the 48th and the Patricia's

he's buried at the Toronto Necropilis, in the neighbourhood where we both grew up

Victoria Patricia

Dileas

[Dougie93]

11 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

 but not MRTT

again, Boutique Military

a handful of ultra expensive items in the showroom

with nothing in the warehouse to back that up

 vanity projects without any plan of how to use them

without a cohesive force structure which can employ them in combined arms

failure to take care of the fundamentals, just throwing money around to score some cheap political points

[Dougie93]

58 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Seriously though, thanks for the interesting perspective, I never thought about it that way.  I know CDN troops were partially:primarily faulted for the a-10 incident, I wonder if any lessons learned have been applied in the nearly 20 years since. 

I don't fault them

I would have been doing the same thing

it never would have occurred to me that the A-10 might roll in on the fire

because, again, we were trained to be Peacekeepers, we never worked with American airpower like that

I work with a guy, a Militia combat engineer, who was there

he was standing in the back of a LAV looking right at Mark Graham when Graham took two 30mm to the chest

none of the boys were prepared for that, they never saw it coming

you go from the Canadian Militia straight to the battlefield with the Americans

that is a steep learning curve indeed

these are perishable skills, even at the institutional level

like when I joined back in the 1980's, everything was preparing to fight World War Three

you had to your Nuke Suits on, and any place you stopped, you had to dig trenches & get in them

but then in the 90's, that all went away, the institutional knowledge was lost

full spectrum operations were discarded, as the imperative became Operations Other Than War

Edited August 5, 2023 by Dougie93

[ExFlyer]

17 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

met him as in the meal line at the eating mess, or playing pool in the games room at Sassy's

he wouldn't remember me, I was a "Leg" as the Airborne called us, beneath notice

but I was paying close attention to him, because he was a 2 Commando Mcpl

and guys I knew in 2 Commando told me about him, what his story was

I didn't say he wasn't guilty

but he didn't strike me as being a homicidal maniac, and nobody said that he was

he was a qualified Section Commander who was certified fit for duty by predeployment training

when I heard that he had murdered someone in theatre, then immediately tried to kill himself

that made no sense, so my first question was actually : 'did he have some sort of psychotic break ?"

Oh, changing your story to make it sound better?? LOL. Was it walking by his NDMC room or in Sassy's???

Time to concede and bow out of this defence of yours LOL