Progressive

[tml12]

The Left typically thinks of money as wealth when it is merely a symbol of wealth.

The Right typically thinks of natural resources as money when they are merely a symbol of...whoa, I'm too stoned to finish that one.

I had a few too many drinks tonight too Bubber...

I don't like the right's POV on the environment but I have to look at the question overall, right?

Here is hoping for a moderate conservative future...

[geoffrey]

The Left typically thinks of money as wealth when it is merely a symbol of wealth.

The Right typically thinks of natural resources as money when they are merely a symbol of...whoa, I'm too stoned to finish that one.

I had a few too many drinks tonight too Bubber...

I don't like the right's POV on the environment but I have to look at the question overall, right?

Here is hoping for a moderate conservative future...

Let me weigh in, add to the too many drinks club.

The right doesn't always neccessarily see resources as only money, sustainable development is good business and conservatism is good business.

[August1991]

I think the leftists who call themself "progressives" are trying to deceive the public again by renaming themselves. They used to call themselves liberals, but that word usually has a negative feel to it these days. Todays liberals are mostly socialists; they've ruined that word.

MB got it right first, before.

[YankAbroad]

Progressive is a term which socialists have taken after conservatives made "liberal" a dirty word.

Of course, socialism isn't liberalism -- libertarianism is the original liberalism.

Nothing is more "progressive" (i.e. enabling of progress) than allowing individuals to pursue their own dreams and life agendas without a socialist telling them that they should give up their money for the socialist to spend the way he believes, or a conservative telling them that they should give up their life choices for the conservative to make for them.

A true, original liberal is one who tells the authoritarians of the right and the left alike to leave the people alone and manage their own lives rather than those of others.

Unfortunately, conservative statists and socialist statists have created a political monopoly for themselves and transformed our political landscape into an elementary school playground filled with insults -- ("liberal!" "neocon!" "hate-filled leftist!" "rightist hatemonger!") instead of pursuing a healthy debate. They have done this because leftist policies and rightist policies alike are both failures and they know this. Discussion would only make that point clearer and threaten their power.

[tml12]

Progressive is a term which socialists have taken after conservatives made "liberal" a dirty word.

Of course, socialism isn't liberalism -- libertarianism is the original liberalism.

Nothing is more "progressive" (i.e. enabling of progress) than allowing individuals to pursue their own dreams and life agendas without a socialist telling them that they should give up their money for the socialist to spend the way he believes, or a conservative telling them that they should give up their life choices for the conservative to make for them.

A true, original liberal is one who tells the authoritarians of the right and the left alike to leave the people alone and manage their own lives rather than those of others.

Unfortunately, conservative statists and socialist statists have created a political monopoly for themselves and transformed our political landscape into an elementary school playground filled with insults -- ("liberal!" "neocon!" "hate-filled leftist!" "rightist hatemonger!") instead of pursuing a healthy debate. They have done this because leftist policies and rightist policies alike are both failures and they know this. Discussion would only make that point clearer and threaten their power.

Neo-liberalism is the cornerstone of libertarianism.

"Liberal" only has a left-wing connotation in the U.S.

[geoffrey]

Progressive is a term which socialists have taken after conservatives made "liberal" a dirty word.

Of course, socialism isn't liberalism -- libertarianism is the original liberalism.

Nothing is more "progressive" (i.e. enabling of progress) than allowing individuals to pursue their own dreams and life agendas without a socialist telling them that they should give up their money for the socialist to spend the way he believes, or a conservative telling them that they should give up their life choices for the conservative to make for them.

A true, original liberal is one who tells the authoritarians of the right and the left alike to leave the people alone and manage their own lives rather than those of others.

Unfortunately, conservative statists and socialist statists have created a political monopoly for themselves and transformed our political landscape into an elementary school playground filled with insults -- ("liberal!" "neocon!" "hate-filled leftist!" "rightist hatemonger!") instead of pursuing a healthy debate. They have done this because leftist policies and rightist policies alike are both failures and they know this. Discussion would only make that point clearer and threaten their power.

Neo-liberalism is the cornerstone of libertarianism.

"Liberal" only has a left-wing connotation in the U.S.

And recently in Canada, its not too late to change that here though.

[YankAbroad]

Quite right, tml -- "neo-liberal" is a dirty word amongst the European left.

[thom_PC]

Could be I'm showing my age, or my bitterness about the loss of Progressive in progessive conservative.

We are the PC Party of Canada and are continuing the progressive-conservative tradition of Sir John A. Macdonald and Sir George-Étienne Cartier.

We are following the precept of Edmund Burke that the most statesmanlike path to follow is "the propensity to preserve" (Conservative) coupled with "the ability to improve" (Progressive).

We are guided by the Constitution and Policies of the Progressive Conservative Party of Canada as they were at the time it was removed from the registry of Elections Canada on December 7, 2003.

Our purpose is returning the PC Party to its proper place in Canadian political life as a moderate, centrist option for the electorate

You are invited to make telephone and/or e-mail contact and join with those already engaged in offering Canadians the option of supporting "PC (Progressive Canadian) Party" on their ballot on election day.

There is a lot of work to do but as more and more Canadians realise who we are and what we stand for, we truly believe they will turn to us in rejection of the Conservatives and the Liberals!

Help us rebuild the Progressive Conservative tradition.

Thom Beeston

Membership Coordinator

PC Youth

Email: [email protected]

Website: www.progressivecanadian.org

[scribblet]

I think the leftists who call themself "progressives" are trying to deceive the public again by renaming themselves. They used to call themselves liberals, but that word usually has a negative feel to it these days. Todays liberals are mostly socialists; they've ruined that word.

The people calling themselves progressives also seem to be the extreme-type of the left. They also come across as intolerant and angry. And they love their "causes" and protests. They have a low tolerance for different opinions or views. If you don't "toe the line", you are shunned, or if on a discussion forum or weblog, quickly banned. It's all lock-step stuff, living in a bubble, and then utter shock when, at election time, the public rejects them.

Does anybody remember studying Classic Liberalism in University? It doesn't resemble today's liberals.

I agree it is a 'code' word for left wing, in fact, I read a thread on rabble where they would like to see progressive incorporated in the NDP title, but can't because progressive conservative is still in use (Joe Hugelin's party). It is also used to infer that anyone not left wing is not progressive, actually a clever use of the word to disseminate intolerance towards anything remotely conservative.

http://www.funkmeisters.net/2006_02_01_iamfunk_archive.html

WHAT IS "PROGRESSIVE CANADIANISM"

"Progressive Canadianism" is the assumption that everyone is "progressive Canadian" and the belief in the inherent normality and superiority of being a "progressive Canadian". "Progressive Canadian" assumptions are made and reinforced in all areas of society. Some examples that occur in schools are: Albertans are crazy, Christians are radical right-wing extremists, and there is not such thing as a "radical left-wing extremist".

[thom_PC]

WHAT IS "PROGRESSIVE CANADIANISM"

"Progressive Canadianism" is the assumption that everyone is "progressive Canadian" and the belief in the inherent normality and superiority of being a "progressive Canadian". "Progressive Canadian" assumptions are made and reinforced in all areas of society. Some examples that occur in schools are: Albertans are crazy, Christians are radical right-wing extremists, and there is not such thing as a "radical left-wing extremist".

I have to disagree with you. Our party has adopted the name of "Progressive Canadian" in order to remain as the PC Party of Canada. We are guided by the aims, principles and policies of the former Progressive Conservative Party of Canada, as it was before the merger with the Canadian Alliance. I read the article on "Progressive Canadianism" and find that the description of "Progressive Canadianism" given is far from that of our party.

In truth we are the "PROGRESSIVE CONSERVATIVE PARTY" as it was. The party of Sir John A. MacDonald and Sir George-Étienne Cartier. We are the PC Party of Canada and are working to rebuild the Progressive Conservative movement.

[apollo19]

WHAT IS "PROGRESSIVE CANADIANISM"

"Progressive Canadianism" is the assumption that everyone is "progressive Canadian" and the belief in the inherent normality and superiority of being a "progressive Canadian". "Progressive Canadian" assumptions are made and reinforced in all areas of society. Some examples that occur in schools are: Albertans are crazy, Christians are radical right-wing extremists, and there is not such thing as a "radical left-wing extremist".

I have to disagree with you. Our party has adopted the name of "Progressive Canadian" in order to remain as the PC Party of Canada. We are guided by the aims, principles and policies of the former Progressive Conservative Party of Canada, as it was before the merger with the Canadian Alliance. I read the article on "Progressive Canadianism" and find that the description of "Progressive Canadianism" given is far from that of our party.

In truth we are the "PROGRESSIVE CONSERVATIVE PARTY" as it was. The party of Sir John A. MacDonald and Sir George-Étienne Cartier. We are the PC Party of Canada and are working to rebuild the Progressive Conservative movement.

Uh, correct me if I am wrong but wasn't MacDonald part of the Conservative Party (same name as todays), as it had not yet merged with the Progressives?

[thom_PC]

Uh, correct me if I am wrong but wasn't MacDonald part of the Conservative Party (same name as todays), as it had not yet merged with the Progressives?

Officially, the Progressive Conservative Party existed from 1867-2003, and ceased to exist after 2003. You can read about this here.

It was initially known as the Liberal-Conservative Party until 1873, at which point it became known as the Conservative Party, although many candidates still referred to them as the Liberal-Conservatives.

Later, as a result of WWI and the conscription crisis of 1917, they joined with pro-conscription Liberals to become the "Unionist Party" from 1917-1920 and then the "National Liberal and Conservative Party" until 1922. Then they returned to the name of Liberal-Conservative Party until 1938.

Many agree that the Progressive Conservative Party, as it was before the merger was much different than the new Conservative Party. It is our goal to rebuild the Progressive Conservatives as they were before 2003.

Thom Beeston

[geoffrey]

Sounds like a bunch of sore losers.

Seems to me like the Conservatives are quite 'progressive' with riduclous programs like child care money.

They aren't even conservative anymore, how much more progressive can you make the Conservatives???

Heres my thoughts on your policy according to your website.

Health Care

Same as the Liberals, through money at it and hope efficiency comes. No details on why or how though.

Defense

Replace the Sea Kings, how revolutionary... support peacekeepers, joy, Liberal, Liberal, Liberal.

Environment

No Kyoto position of course. Protect the environment, don't say way... Liberal, Liberal, Liberal.

Agriculture

Status quo, lets enjoy it... exciting stuff you have there.

First Nations

Same as the rest of them, all wrong. Self-governance means self-sufficient, too bad you guys can't take a stand there.

Trade

Free trade... any new news on whats happening there? Nope.

Your party is simply another Liberal party with a blue flag. If you actually believed in conservative values and that was your motivation, you'd start a conservative party because we don't have one in Canada anymore.

You really just sound like sore losers that lost authority when the CPC was formed.

What's your party's view on same-sex marriage?

[thom_PC]

Your party is simply another Liberal party with a blue flag. If you actually believed in conservative values and that was your motivation, you'd start a conservative party because we don't have one in Canada anymore.

You really just sound like sore losers that lost authority when the CPC was formed.

What's your party's view on same-sex marriage?

I can think of several important differences. During the 2006 election campaign we were the only party that were willing to campaign on no tax cuts. Canada has a debt to pay of nearly $650 billion and all of the front-running parties were saying that we should cut taxes. The new Conservative plan only commits $3 billion a year to "paying down" this debt. I'll let you do the math.

Cutting taxes now are simply deferring these taxes to later generations. The Progressive Canadian Plan exists to pay down this debt and then give a REAL tax-cut instead of phony election gimmicks.

Our plan also exists to address the concern with student debt. What was the Lib/CPC plan toward student debt? If memory serves, the Conservative policy toward student debt was the same as all of of their other policies of such nature. A tax-cut. The Liberal plan was a 50% subsidy of a students first-year and graduating year tuition. To address why this is a concern as well as what our plan is, I quote from our Education Platform release:

“As Progressive Canadians (Conservatives), we have a responsibility to ensure that every dollar we invest has a long term, measurable payback,” states President Jim Love. “Studies have shown that our lagging productivity is the greatest threat to our standard of living and our ability to compete in the world. One estimate puts the productivity gap between us and the US at a value of 90 billion dollars a year. Even a small portion of that will pay for these program many times over.”

"The party announced a four point plan aimed at making Canada’s post secondary education system accessible to all Canadians. A cornerstone of the plan is a revamped student assistance program which will cover tuition, books and living expenses for students. While the assistance would take the form of a loan, it would be forgiven over a period of years if the student graduates and remains a resident of Canada."

As for your comment, "You really just sound like sore losers that lost authority when the CPC was formed". I offer comment in my personal defence. Given the fact that I had just turned 18 when the CPC party was formed, I sincerely doubt that I would have had any sort of "authority" within the former PC. Truth be told, I was not a member of any federal party at that time. I joined the Progressive Canadians only recently as I feel that there is a need for a party of this sort. I find it a shame that many voters are no longer voting FOR anyone, but rather voting AGAINST another.

As for your question about SSM, I echo our leader Tracy Parsons, "Neither human rights nor matters of faith are popularity contests."

[geoffrey]

I can think of several important differences. During the 2006 election campaign we were the only party that were willing to campaign on no tax cuts. Canada has a debt to pay of nearly $650 billion and all of the front-running parties were saying that we should cut taxes. The new Conservative plan only commits $3 billion a year to "paying down" this debt. I'll let you do the math.

Agreed here.

Cutting taxes now are simply deferring these taxes to later generations. The Progressive Canadian Plan exists to pay down this debt and then give a REAL tax-cut instead of phony election gimmicks.

How much would you guys commit to debt repayment? $10b a year? That still taking hundreds of years to kill off, better than whats around now, but still accomplishing no real outcomes. Tax cuts are needed however to maintain our competitveness with countries that offer cheap labour solutions.

Our plan also exists to address the concern with student debt. What was the Lib/CPC plan toward student debt? If memory serves, the Conservative policy toward student debt was the same as all of of their other policies of such nature. A tax-cut. The Liberal plan was a 50% subsidy of a students first-year and graduating year tuition. To address why this is a concern as well as what our plan is, I quote from our Education Platform release:

“As Progressive Canadians (Conservatives), we have a responsibility to ensure that every dollar we invest has a long term, measurable payback,” states President Jim Love. “Studies have shown that our lagging productivity is the greatest threat to our standard of living and our ability to compete in the world. One estimate puts the productivity gap between us and the US at a value of 90 billion dollars a year. Even a small portion of that will pay for these program many times over.”

"The party announced a four point plan aimed at making Canada’s post secondary education system accessible to all Canadians. A cornerstone of the plan is a revamped student assistance program which will cover tuition, books and living expenses for students. While the assistance would take the form of a loan, it would be forgiven over a period of years if the student graduates and remains a resident of Canada."

Sounds like a horrible idea. No student would work! The costs would be amazing. If you were going to pay for my tution, books and living costs, I definitely would not be working.

One solution to the major productivity crunch in the trades. Many people enter these jobs because university is beyond their pay range. Your plan would reduce further those in trade programs, how will this help?

As for your comment, "You really just sound like sore losers that lost authority when the CPC was formed". I offer comment in my personal defence. Given the fact that I had just turned 18 when the CPC party was formed, I sincerely doubt that I would have had any sort of "authority" within the former PC. Truth be told, I was not a member of any federal party at that time. I joined the Progressive Canadians only recently as I feel that there is a need for a party of this sort. I find it a shame that many voters are no longer voting FOR anyone, but rather voting AGAINST another.

There isn't any in Canada to vote for anymore, every party is centre-left or left.

As for your question about SSM, I echo our leader Tracy Parsons, "Neither human rights nor matters of faith are popularity contests."

I agree with Ms. Parsons here, but that doesn't change my question. Is the party in favour or no?

I'm trying to figure out just where you guys stand on alot of things, because personally as a big supporter of the old PC's, I saw some hope in voting for someone I like instead of holding my nose. But it turns out that this is simply another tax and spend party, thats very socialist on many issues (like the tution loan repayments for example).

[August1991]

If "progressive" means what will happen inevitably, then I must disagree. No one knows what will happen, or what direction progress will take. History is littered with false predictions.

If "progressive" means that individuals should be free to choose, then I would like to believe this is possible.

If "progressive" means that individuals must adopt or follow a new way of perceiving others and society, then I think I disagree. After all, we have religion now. Is this "progressive way" just a new religion?

What does "progressive" mean?

[BC_chick]

Hey August, how come you dug up this old thread and then started another thread on the same subject? You didn't get enough attention digging this up so you needed a new thread on the side bar to help you out?

Anyway, your point, I think, is this:

Discovering an old thread hanging is like discovering a nail on a cabinet.

In teh US, the word "liberal" has negative connotations and it's not a vote-getter. So, American liberals now call themselves "progressives". In Canada, the NDP used to call themselves "social democrats" or even "socialists" but those words are now politically impossible, and somehow old-fashioned - so the NDP is now known as "progressive".

The word "progressive" has yet to be debased (but I suspect it will be).

The Left believes that if the name or symbol changes, somehow the reality will change too. The Left believes propaganda (symbols) can change the world (reality).

The Left's greatest confusion is in economics. The Left typically thinks of money as wealth when it is merely a symbol of wealth.

... and you're obviously still thinking about it 7 years later.

So you think progressive is really a 'euphemism' for liberal?

Kinda like social-conservative is a 'euphemism' for the religious? Is that the idea?

And thank you for digging up this thread. what a hoot to read through these oldies.

Edited February 23, 2013 by BC_chick

[Pliny]

What does "progressive" mean?

In the political sense it means bigger and bigger government. But progressive politicians would prefer you thought it

meant "social progress" that included social justice and sustainable communities - closely supervised as just and

sustainable by government, of course.

[eyeball]

To me it would mean placing our government in a state of deep sousveillance...to a degree that would make Orwell himself blush.

Do you really think you could stomach the temerity Pliny?

[Pliny]

To me it would mean placing our government in a state of deep sousveillance...to a degree that would make Orwell himself blush.

Do you really think you could stomach the temerity Pliny?

You have Orwell's big brother "surveillance" confused. The people should keep a good watch on their government, perhaps to the level of "sousveillance" if necessary, which has nothing to do with temerity and more to do with a vigilant watch of freedom and liberty.

[The_Squid]

Perhaps August should "progress" past his obsession with the term "progressive".

[eyeball]

You have Orwell's big brother "surveillance" confused.

No, I'm pretty sure I don't, remember I'm the one who has monitoring cameras, data loggers, observers, validators and auditors et al providing grist for DFO's mill - at my cost I might add.

Now you show me yours.

The people should keep a good watch on their government, perhaps to the level of "sousveillance" if necessary, which has nothing to do with temerity and more to do with a vigilant watch of freedom and liberty.

Yeah well, when fishermen suggested we put cameras and black boxes in DFO's offices for the same reason they put them on our boats the bureaucrats were not amused.

[Pliny]

No, I'm pretty sure I don't, remember I'm the one who has monitoring cameras, data loggers, observers, validators and auditors et al providing grist for DFO's mill - at my cost I might add.

Now you show me yours.

You watching government is not Orwell. It's a reversal - anti-Orwell.

But keep it up.

Yeah well, when fishermen suggested we put cameras and black boxes in DFO's offices for the same reason they put them on our boats the bureaucrats were not amused.

I don't imagine they would be. They have long forgotten they are the servants of the people and prefer to think of

themselves as their guiding light.

[August1991]

Gawd I hate Windows 8...

Hey August, how come you dug up this old thread and then started another thread on the same subject?

The word "progressive" is like Apple or cool. It's, well, cool. Microsoft is apparently now cool, and progressive.

.. and you're obviously still thinking about it 7 years later.

So you think progressive is really a 'euphemism' for liberal?

Kinda like social-conservative is a 'euphemism' for the religious? Is that the idea?

No, I think "Leftists" reduce people to labels, euphemisms.

----

Once upon a time, it was "progressive" to believe in eugenics and, for example, residential schools. (The best way to raise young children, for example, is to put them all together in rooms with trained specialists.)

I'm a conservative because, when it's a question of the State, I reckon that "progressives" are like Bernie Madoff. I prefer slow change to radical change.

[but when it's a question of the market, I prefer immediate change.]

Edited March 2, 2013 by August1991

[Pliny]

[but when it's a question of the market, I prefer immediate change.]

And no pennies, please!