Hitler and Liberals. (One and the same)

[CdnFox]

16 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I'm just reading that Snopes article.  It's full of stuff like this:

The plain truth, writes Historian Richard J. Evans in The Coming of the Third Reich, was that Hitler and his party saw socialism, communism, and leftism generally as inimical to everything they hoped to achieve:

In the climate of postwar counter-revolution, national brooding on the "stab-in-the-back," and obsession with war profiteers and merchants of the rapidly mushrooming hyperinflation, Hitler concentrated especially on rabble-rousing attacks on "Jewish" merchants who were supposedly pushing up the price of goods: they should all, he said, to shouts of approval from his audiences, be strung up. Perhaps to emphasize this anti-capitalist focus, and to align itself with similar groups in Austria and Czechoslovakia, the party changed its name in February 1920 to the National Socialist German Workers' Party.... Despite the change of name, however, it would be wrong to see Nazism as a form of, or an outgrowth from, socialism. True, as some have pointed out, its rhetoric was frequently egalitarian, it stressed the need to put common needs above the needs of the individual, and it often declared itself opposed to big business and international finance capital. Famously, too, anti-Semitism was once declared to be "the socialism of fools." But from the very beginning, Hitler declared himself implacably opposed to Social Democracy and, initially to a much smaller extent, Communism: after all, the "November traitors" who had signed the Armistice and later the Treaty of Versailles were not Communists at all, but the Social Democrats.

The quote proves  my point more than the authors

I've noted several times that hitler hated communist - and many of these things suggest that communism and socialism are the same thing. We know they're not.

ANd i've said he's a market socialist, so simply saying "he didn't try to seize the means of production entirely' doesn't fly.

Lets take a few examples

Hitler concentrated especially on rabble-rousing attacks on "Jewish" merchants who were supposedly pushing up the price of goods: they should all, he said, to shouts of approval from his audiences, be strung up.

So.  Eat the rich. Which side of the  spectrum do we hear that from?

And -

rue, as some have pointed out, its rhetoric was frequently egalitarian, it stressed the need to put common needs above the needs of the individual, and it often declared itself opposed to big business and international finance capital. Famously, too, anti-Semitism was once declared to be "the socialism of fools." But from the very beginning, Hitler declared himself implacably opposed to Social Democracy and, initially to a much smaller extent, Communism:

Hitler never mentioned 'social democracy' as we know it today.  Social democrats back then were just socialists who wanted to move away from a market model to 'true' socialism And he went hard after the communists since before  getting elected. The nazis rose to power on the backs of events like the red wedding incident.

Hilter did believe in the markets - but a VERY VERY regulated market essentially run by the state. That would make him a democratic or market socialist.

So again - hitler was a market or 'democratic' socialists (which is not the same at all as social democrat).

Swing and a miss.

Edited June 11, 2023 by CdnFox

[CdnFox]

2 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Just you saying all that doesn't make it so.  I would have thought you would know that.

 

How hypocritical of you

Quote

Encyclopedias, Third Reich historians, all say the Nazis weren't socialists.  You and a couple of other wingnuts say they were.

Many note they were -but again  you play word games.  He wasn't a socialist in the sense of the word that he wanted an end to the market forces. But i've been clear about that many many times.

His policies, his language, his actions are all that of the modern day democratic socialist/market socialist. Which of his policies were right wing? Sure - the left likes to say that racism is right wing, but we know that to be an extreme lie.  So what else? Pretty much nothing that we'd look at today.  He wasn't very religious. He did not believe in individual freedoms very much. He believed in strict gov't control of the economy.  Where's the 'right wing' in there?

Quote

I'll stick with the former.

Well if what you are saying is you can't think for yourself then i understand. That certainly explains why you were unable to make any kind of argument against any of my points.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

The quote proves  my point more than the authors

I've noted several times that hitler hated communist - and many of these things suggest that communism and socialism are the same thing. We know they're not.

ANd i've said he's a market socialist, so simply saying "he didn't try to seize the means of production entirely' doesn't fly.

Lets take a few examples

Hitler concentrated especially on rabble-rousing attacks on "Jewish" merchants who were supposedly pushing up the price of goods: they should all, he said, to shouts of approval from his audiences, be strung up.

So.  Eat the rich. Which side of the  spectrum do we hear that from?

And -

rue, as some have pointed out, its rhetoric was frequently egalitarian, it stressed the need to put common needs above the needs of the individual, and it often declared itself opposed to big business and international finance capital. Famously, too, anti-Semitism was once declared to be "the socialism of fools." But from the very beginning, Hitler declared himself implacably opposed to Social Democracy and, initially to a much smaller extent, Communism:

Hitler never mentioned 'social democracy' as we know it today.  And he went hard after the communists since before  getting elected. The nazis rose to power on the backs of events like the red wedding incident.

Hilter did believe in the markets - but a VERY VERY redulated market essentially run by the state. That would make him a democratic or market socialist.

So again - hitler was a market or 'democratic' socalists (whichi is not the same at all as social democrat).

Swing and a miss.

If you think that their wealth was the main factor in Hitler's persecution of the Jews then there is truly no hope for you.

Also, your own assessment of the quote is put to the lie by the last sentence.

But from the very beginning, Hitler declared himself implacably opposed to Social Democracy and, initially to a much smaller extent, Communism:

Edited June 11, 2023 by bcsapper

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Well if what you are saying is you can't think for yourself then i understand. That certainly explains why you were unable to make any kind of argument against any of my points.

You do realise you can repeat yourself with such nonsense as often as you like.  It doesn't make you any more right, or any less a clown.

[CdnFox]

10 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

If you think that their wealth was the main factor in Hitler's persecution of the Jews then there is truly no hope for you.

I was very clearly responding to a quote from the source  YOU provided.  IF YOU have a problem with your sources then may i suggest spending more than 3 second trying to educate yourself on complex issues.

Quote

Encyclopedias, Third Reich historians, all say the Nazis weren't socialists.  You and a couple of other wingnuts say they were.

not quite true. And i think you know that.  They say they weren't communists era style socialists, who did not believe that there should be a market driven economy at all.  And i was very clear from the get go that i was refering to the definition of socialst that we use today.

So you're hiding behind a bit of a lie.  Again - i've given very very specific examples.  And you can't refute a single one.

Lets try it from the other side - which of the current right wing parties are advocating for a Dirigisme or even vety heavily regulated economy?  Which ones are suggesting that the wealthy should be stripped of their wealth or that they are artificially inflating prices on goods like homes?

None? How very odd - these were all strong nazi policies - i thought nazi's were right wing? lets try a few more.

Which right wing parties are screaming for more socialized medicine? Which ones think that using experimental medical treatments on people by force is a good idea? Which ones think we need more gov't funded make work programs?

Still none?

How very odd. Hitler did all of that.

Want to tell me again how hitler is a 'right wing' figure?

[CdnFox]

18 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

You do realise you can repeat yourself with such nonsense as often as you like.  It doesn't make you any more right, or any less a clown.

I assume you're talking to a mirror. 

I present facts and make arguments. so far you just say "nuh uhhhh".   You sound like a fool lecturing someone else about how silly it is to be a fool.

Hitler was a democratic socalist in what he said, in his actions, and in teh nazi party policy. This is demonstrably true. He was more on the left than the right.  Sorry if that inconveniences you.

[West]

3 hours ago, Aristides said:

And yet Communists were their first target when they got power, not the 

All the same bag of lunatics

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

I was very clearly responding to a quote from the source  YOU provided.  IF YOU have a problem with your sources then may i suggest spending more than 3 second trying to educate yourself on complex issues.

You very clearly responded to the quote in a self serving manner that was nonsensical.  You implied that economics was the main reason the Nazis built the death camps.  They did it because Hitler was a socialist and the Jews were capitalists.  You would imagine poor Jews would have been safe.  I suppose people like Krupp and Thyssen were just damn lucky not to end up in Auschwitz, eh?

 

14 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

not quite true. And i think you know that.  They say they weren't communists era style socialists, who did not believe that there should be a market driven economy at all.  And i was very clear from the get go that i was refering to the definition of socialst that we use today.

So you're hiding behind a bit of a lie.  Again - i've given very very specific examples.  And you can't refute a single one.

Lets try it from the other side - which of the current right wing parties are advocating for a Dirigisme or even vety heavily regulated economy?  Which ones are suggesting that the wealthy should be stripped of their wealth or that they are artificially inflating prices on goods like homes?

None? How very odd - these were all strong nazi policies - i thought nazi's were right wing? lets try a few more.

Which right wing parties are screaming for more socialized medicine? Which ones think that using experimental medical treatments on people by force is a good idea? Which ones think we need more gov't funded make work programs?

Still none?

How very odd. Hitler did all of that.

Want to tell me again how hitler is a 'right wing' figure?

Now you're just being desperate.  You're comparing Mengele to a vaccine mandate that wasn't even mandatory.

You think a program of repairing infrastructure is a dead giveaway the government are Nazis.

You think providing medical care for people in need is another.

You are a fücking clown.  I just didn't realise how much.

Your posting style is crap too.  You haven't done anything here but insist you are right and I'm wrong, repeatedly, as though that were all that was needed.  My kids used to do that.

 

22 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

I assume you're talking to a mirror. 

I present facts and make arguments. so far you just say "nuh uhhhh".   You sound like a fool lecturing someone else about how silly it is to be a fool.

Hitler was a democratic socalist in what he said, in his actions, and in teh nazi party policy. This is demonstrably true. He was more on the left than the right.  Sorry if that inconveniences you.

You presented opinions only, which I have shown to be nonsensical using quotes and opinions from encyclopedias and historians.  That obviously inconveniences you a great deal.  I'm not sorry at all.  You deserve no less.

Anyway, as your next post is undoubtedly to declare victory once again, I'll leave it at that.  At some point the definition of insanity kicks in and I realise I have better things to do.

[CdnFox]

12 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

You very clearly responded to the quote in a self serving manner that was nonsensical. 

Bullshit. i addressed the point the author made directly and specifically.   That's a completely dishonest statement on your part. Today's socialists demand we go after the rich for price fixing and making too much profit - yesterday's nazis did precisely the same thing saying the jews were the source.  There is nothing 'self serving' about that - it's the absolute truth.

 

Quote

Now you're just being desperate.  You're comparing Mengele to a vaccine mandate that wasn't even mandatory.

I never said anything about a vaccine mandate. I pointed out right wing gov'ts aren't suggesting we should force medical experiments on people the way the nazi's did.

Funny your mind went right to the vaccines tho isn't it.

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You think a program of repairing infrastructure is a dead giveaway the government are Nazis.

Never mentioned infrastructure.  I said make work.  Are you saying all make work projects are infrastructure?

 

Quote

 

You think providing medical care for people in need is another.

 

Nope - i said it was a nazi policy. Which it was.  What i asked is which conservative or right wing gov't is asking for it.

I was comparing the right wing to the nazis and noting the differences in their policies.  And somehow - you've got the nazi's confused with the left. Imagine that

 

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You are a fücking clown.  I just didn't realise how much.

So you can't make an argument and i can and now you're angry.

Quote

Your posting style is crap too.  You haven't done anything here but insist you are right and I'm wrong, repeatedly, as though that were all that was needed.  My kids used to do that.

I made an argument i presented facts and examples ....  sorry but you're projecting here.

And i'm not the one losing my temper and having a fit like a 4 year old.

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You presented opinions only, which I have shown to be nonsensical using quotes and opinions from encyclopedias and historians.  That obviously inconveniences you a great deal.  I'm not sorry at all.  You deserve no less.

I noted clearly why what you posted wasn't relevant to what i said. You had no answer to that. I presented facts - and asked you which ones you disagreed with or were untrue. You coudn't mention a one.

But hey - point them out now.

 

Quote

Anyway, as your next post is undoubtedly to declare victory once again, I'll leave it at that.  At some point the definition of insanity kicks in and I realise I have better things to do.

Eventualy every left wing loser who's presented with facts they can't cope with or refute sticks their head in the sand and cries.

But i love that you took the time to admit i was right before you left

Sorry the truth and facts upsets you so much. I forgot you're on the left and being honest might have a negative impact.  

Edited June 11, 2023 by CdnFox

[reason10]

[herbie]

18 hours ago, CdnFox said:

I notice that like sapper you can't actualy point to a REASON why they're "right"

I don't have to, I already pointed out you can go to a library or dtay awake through Grade Nine Social Studies to see the absurdity of what you claim.
If you want of point to mushforbrains10 Internet memes listing everything all gov'ts do and are are supposed to do as 'socialist' then just keep on flaunting your ignorance to all.

[CdnFox]

22 minutes ago, herbie said:

I don't have to,

 

AHhhh the guy who runs around claiming all opinions are useless without facts doesn't need facts!!!!!!  LOL

 Well thanks for proving you're a hypocrite but that's not what we're here to discuss

 

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If you want of point to mushforbrains10 Internet memes listing everything all gov'ts do and are are supposed to do as 'socialist' then just keep on flaunting your ignorance to all.

All right - so which of the things i mentioned as being associated with market socialsts are NOT actually.   I keep asking this - your side keeps failing to come up with a single one.

[reason10]

19 hours ago, herbie said:

I don't have to, I already pointed out you can go to a library or dtay awake through Grade Nine Social Studies to see the absurdity of what you claim.
If you want of point to mushforbrains10 Internet memes listing everything all gov'ts do and are are supposed to do as 'socialist' then just keep on flaunting your ignorance to all.

When it comes to IGNORANCE, you have no room to talk, Adolf.

Memes are needed when people like you are TOO STUPID AND BLUE STATE UNEDUCATED to read reliable links I also post. You're like a Florida preschooler, except not quite as smart.

[CdnFox]

19 hours ago, CdnFox said:

AHhhh the guy who runs around claiming all opinions are useless without facts doesn't need facts!!!!!!  LOL

 Well thanks for proving you're a hypocrite but that's not what we're here to discuss

 

All right - so which of the things i mentioned as being associated with market socialsts are NOT actually.   I keep asking this - your side keeps failing to come up with a single one.

@herbie.... still waiting for an answer. No? Nothing?

I figured.

Hitler was a market socialist, or democratic socialist or liberal socialist if you prefer, all minor variations on the theme. He believed in a market system tightly controlled by the gov't,  strong social spending on social programs such as employment and health, and believed that it was people's responsiblity to give for the betterment of the society in general.  He was very much socialistic in his thinking.

And he believed that the biggest benefit to society would be armed conflict to get 'leibenstraum' and to plunder the riches of other nations to benefit the great German society.

By our standards today hitler was definitely to the left of the political spectrum.

 

[Americana Antifa]

On 6/6/2023 at 4:41 PM, reason10 said:

 

These are all facts. And facts don't care about your feelings.

If you vote Democrat, you're a NAZI. Plain and simple.

 

[reason10]

Just now, Americana Antifa said:

 

You just described the item that caused you to flunk out of the third grade IN AN INFERIOR BLUE STATE SCHOOL.

 

[herbie]

I'm not a Nazi, you're a Nazi - nyah nyah nyah!

Get back in the playroom with the other 4 year olds, the adults are talking.

[CdnFox]

3 hours ago, herbie said:

I'm not a Nazi, you're a Nazi - nyah nyah nyah!

Get back in the playroom with the other 4 year olds, the adults are talking.

Still can't find a single example that's wrong eh?   LOL - say hi to the other kids in the playroom when you get back there, we adults will continue talking.

[Rebound]

Volkswagen was a socialist company. 
Volkswagen was started by the Nazis. The government owned the factory.  Initially, the factory was going to produce the VW Beetle, which was designed by Ferdinand Porsche.  When war broke out, the factory was immediately converted to manufacturing jeep-like vehicles caked Kubelwagens and amphibious vehicles.   
 

Here is a photo of Hitler sitting i  the very first VW, in 1936:

Edited June 13, 2023 by Rebound