Formal church and the IOC

[myata]

For an example, and comparison. Strict pecking hierarchy, male-dominated, dogmatic, entrenched, opaque and obscure, monopolistic, and rich.

But why?

One could think, completely different domains, goals, people. Why is the result near identical?

Why should the head of the IOC be a lifetime position, or near? Who said it? What sense does it make?

What we see is the natural process of evolution of closed tribes, not obligated to any transparency, nor accountability. An experimental proof that it will always produce power-hungry ineffective and inefficient rigid hierarchies.

Is it another evidence that formal church has very little to do with the God? Why would any intelligent God want to recreate pharao model of the society thousands years old?

And a lesson - or model, blueprint, trajectory? for Canada?

Edited May 1, 2023 by myata

[Michael Hardner]

First two sentences are indecipherable and incomplete, structure wise.  Hard to build anything that a human being could understand after that.

Another failure to execute...

[blackbird]

On 5/1/2023 at 9:38 AM, myata said:

Is it another evidence that formal church has very little to do with the God?

What is "formal church"?  I would not presume or attempt to defend all churches.  There are many false ones and many different shades.  Roman churches for example are not Biblical so can't even be counted as such.  Were you baptized or raised in a church? 

Your main point that they have little to do with God is not actually true.  As there are many false churches, you should be more specific in exactly what you mean if you can.  There are true churches with people in them that believe the Bible and believe in Jesus Christ.  If you are referring to the building, that is just a place to worship with others, hear the Bible being preached, and learn about God. 

A church is often also considered a kind of hospital where sick sinners go to find help, guidance and salvation.  Salvation can only be had by God's grace through faith.   A church can never save anyone itself.   The Bible doesn't say it can.

It is not a place of perfect people.  Nobody claimed it was.  It is just a place of fellowship, learning, and worshiping God with other like-minded believers.

Edited May 8, 2023 by blackbird

[myata]

3 hours ago, blackbird said:

It is not a place of perfect people.  Nobody claimed it was.  It is just a place of fellowship, learning, and worshiping God with other like-minded believers.

OK this is an interesting conversation and we hear the above a lot, like in every sermon. So why does any of the above require rigid extremely opaque army-like hierarchies or why would (any intelligent) God need it? I'm really curious how you would explain it.

Remember, there is a very old and very well known logical instrument, the Occam's razor: don't create complex entities and concepts where simpler ones can explain observable reality. The closed tribes perspective explains all of it, perfectly. So where in it is the place for God?

[myata]

8 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Hard to build anything that a human being could understand after that.

Observe the God complex, live demonstration. Have you encountered it, especially among high level public bureaucracy (I have, repeatedly). I am a human so I speak on behalf of all humans. Because I can. We think so you are.

Edited May 8, 2023 by myata

[blackbird]

6 hours ago, myata said:

So why does any of the above require rigid extremely opaque army-like hierarchies or why would (any intelligent) God need it?

You are making a strange assumption. 

 Real churches are Bible-believing churches.  Strange that you would question why any organization has a structure or hierarchy.  Every organization needs some structure in order to exist and function properly.  An organized church is no different than any other organization in society.  Where did you get the idea it is a "rigid, extremely opague army-like hierarchy"?  That doesn't make much sense.  If might be true if you are referring to some kind of cult.  I don't know.  We do live in a fallen world and there are many different things happening in the world, some good and some bad and some in between.

There are different ways Churches govern themselves just like any society.  Some might have elections to choose their officers.  Some have annual general meetings where they give written financial reports to the members.  Some have requirements one must agree with to become a member, such as agreeing to the church's beliefs or confession of faith.  They have varying degrees of structure and each might operate in a different way.  There is nothing necessarily wrong or illegal in the way they run themselves.  There is nothing "rigid extremely opague army-like hierarchy about it".    

I think you are just inventing things to be critical about churches because you disagree with it.  Too bad.  We have freedom of religion here.

[blackbird]

6 hours ago, myata said:

Observe the God complex,

"  The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. 2  The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3  They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one."  Psalm 14:1 KJV

Unbelief is not a good place to be in.  It has serious consequences for eternity unless one changes. 

 

[myata]

43 minutes ago, blackbird said:

There is nothing "rigid extremely opague army-like hierarchy about it".    

Really? Among the biggest faiths in the world, Christianity and Islam, the dominant ones in Christianity, Catholic and Orthodox are rigid, closed hierarchies, almost or exclusively male-governed by the way. At least some in Islam as well. That's only plain facts. And you were looking where?

49 minutes ago, blackbird said:

There are different ways Churches govern themselves just like any society. 

Indeed. The OP was about those with rigid and opaque hierarchies to the following, and the wider society.

[blackbird]

2 hours ago, myata said:

Really? Among the biggest faiths in the world, Christianity and Islam, the dominant ones in Christianity, Catholic and Orthodox are rigid, closed hierarchies,

I already told you I don't support Romanism on various other postings because it is an unbiblical false religion not in agreement with the Bible.  Protestant churches are just normal societies, who, in many cases, their beliefs are in agreement with the Bible on the central teachings.  Each has the right to govern themselves as they wish.  We do live in a free country where people have freedom of association and freedom of religion.  

If you want to see a rigid closed hierarchy, just look at the Liberal Party.  They don't even allow someone who defends the right to life (anti-abortion) to be a candidate. 

Edited May 8, 2023 by blackbird

[myata]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

If you want to see a rigid closed hierarchy, just look at the Liberal Party. 

Certainly another fitting example of a closed, entrenched tribe.

[Yakuda]

On 5/7/2023 at 10:31 PM, blackbird said:

What is "formal church"?  I would not presume or attempt to defend all churches.  There are many false ones and many different shades.  Roman churches for example are not Biblical so can't even be counted as such.  Were you baptized or raised in a church? 

Your main point that they have little to do with God is not actually true.  As there are many false churches, you should be more specific in exactly what you mean if you can.  There are true churches with people in them that believe the Bible and believe in Jesus Christ.  If you are referring to the building, that is just a place to worship with others, hear the Bible being preached, and learn about God. 

A church is often also considered a kind of hospital where sick sinners go to find help, guidance and salvation.  Salvation can only be had by God's grace through faith.   A church can never save anyone itself.   The Bible doesn't say it can.

It is not a place of perfect people.  Nobody claimed it was.  It is just a place of fellowship, learning, and worshiping God with other like-minded believers.

"Roman churches" as you call it is the church of Jesus that was united for 1500 years. Since then 20-30,000 Christian denominations have arisen because of personal interpretation of Scripture and have perpetuated heresy for 500+ years

[TreeBeard]

1 hour ago, Yakuda said:

united for 1500 years

The Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Churches haven’t been united since 1054.  And there were many schisms in Christianity prior to that.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East–West_Schism

Where do you get the idea that Christianity was a monolithic church for 1500 years?

[Yakuda]

14 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

The Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Churches haven’t been united since 1054.  And there were many schisms in Christianity prior to that.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East–West_Schism

Where do you get the idea that Christianity was a monolithic church for 1500 years?

Because the Catholix church and most Orthodox churches are still in communion though separated by the fall off rome and a minor issue related to the Trinity. Beyond that the church in the west was monolithic for 1500 years til looney Luther came along. 

[TreeBeard]

28 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

Because the Catholix church and most Orthodox churches are still in communion though separated by the fall off rome and a minor issue related to the Trinity. Beyond that the church in the west was monolithic for 1500 years til looney Luther came along. 

Not true.  They are not in communion. 
 

The East–West Schism, also known as the Great Schism or Schism of 1054, is the ongoing lack of communion between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches since 1054.^[1]

[Yakuda]

1 hour ago, TreeBeard said:

Not true.  They are not in communion. 
 

The East–West Schism, also known as the Great Schism or Schism of 1054, is the ongoing lack of communion between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches since 1054.^[1]

Yes they are. 

[Yakuda]

2 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

Yes they are. 

You are confusing Communion with communion.