Why the NDP will not win

[dragokatzov]

I love the NDP! They are a great party with lots of good ideas! But they need to change their additude, or they will never win! I am sick of seeing this party being defeated over and over again and something needs to change! The NDP has the "it would be nice if we wone" attitude, the other partys, even the greens, have the "we can win, and will win" attitude. for example, the NDP canditate in Saint John, New brunswick, Terry Albright, is not even going to start to campaign until next year! What the hell!? I also think the NDP could of wine the 2004 bi-election in labrador if NDP caucus members visited the riding! 1 of the 2 provincial ridings there is help by a NDP, and they probably could of wone it if they tried. i would like to hear your opinions on this

[normanchateau]

I love the NDP! They are a great party with lots of good ideas! But they need to change their additude, or they will never win! I am sick of seeing this party being defeated over and over again and something needs to change! The NDP has the "it would be nice if we wone" attitude, the other partys, even the greens, have the "we can win, and will win" attitude. for example, the NDP canditate in Saint John, New brunswick, Terry Albright, is not even going to start to campaign until next year! What the hell!? I also think the NDP could of wine the 2004 bi-election in labrador if NDP caucus members visited the riding! 1 of the 2 provincial ridings there is help by a NDP, and they probably could of wone it if they tried. i would like to hear your opinions on this

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's hard to get motivated to vote NDP when you know that a vote for Jack Layton could help Stephen Harper. Look at the 2000 US election. Many of the Green Party supporters, by voting for Ralph Nader, got George Bush elected. In Florida alone, Nader took thousands of votes which had they gone to Gore, would have given the Florida electoral votes to the Democrats, and George Bush would not have become president.

I know this defeatist attitude won't help the NDP but it's far more important, in my opinion, to defeat Stephen Harper and allow CPC to replace him with someone more in tune with Canadian values. While Layton (and the BQ and Liberals) supports the decriminalization of marijuana, it'll never happen if Harper slips in. Even Stockwell day and Joe Clark support decriminalization and so, I suspect, will Harper's replacement.

[sharkman]

The NDP made gains in the last electionn, and there's no reason to believe they won't again, as people who can not vote for the lyin' Liberals again would prefer them over the tories.

[normanchateau]

I'm sure Stephen Harper supporters will be more than happy to try to convince NDP supporters to keep voting NDP. George Bush was more than happy to sing the praises of Ralph Nader.

[sharkman]

Meanwhile, the Liberals will try scare tactics to manipulate votes away from the Greens and the NDP, knowing how close things are for them these days. All each of us can do is ignore the hype and vote our conscience.

[normanchateau]

Scare tactics like implanting subliminal messages in the brain of Stephen Harper forcing him to utter words against his free will...words like decriminalization of marijuana: NO,

jail time for simple possession: YES. Martin and the cunning Liberals will stop at nothing including forcing Stephen Harper to sound like he actually means what he says.

[Black Dog]

It's hard to get motivated to vote NDP when you know that a vote for Jack Layton could help Stephen Harper.

Whereas a vote for Paul Martin is a vote for Paul Martin. Which is just as bad as Harper.

Look at the 2000 US election. Many of the Green Party supporters, by voting for Ralph Nader, got George Bush elected. In Florida alone, Nader took thousands of votes which had they gone to Gore, would have given the Florida electoral votes to the Democrats, and George Bush would not have become president.

Gore lost because he ran a shitty campaign. Well, that and the Republicans cheated. But anyway....

I know this defeatist attitude won't help the NDP but it's far more important, in my opinion, to defeat Stephen Harper and allow CPC to replace him with someone more in tune with Canadian values. While Layton (and the BQ and Liberals) supports the decriminalization of marijuana, it'll never happen if Harper slips in. Even Stockwell day and Joe Clark support decriminalization and so, I suspect, will Harper's replacement.

You know, I dislike what the CPC base stands for as much of the next pinko, and I find Harper a charmless automaton, but let's stop pretending the Liberal love for "Canadian values" goes beyond lip service. Using your weed example, decriminalization has been on the table for at least two years. But the Liberals did nothing (Chretien killed the bill the first time out). The Liberals don't have any principles and they have no policy that can't be dropped or pushed aside in the interests of clinging on to power.

[normanchateau]

Gore lost because he ran a shitty campaign. Well, that and the Republicans cheated. But anyway....

But anyway...Bush would have lost if Nader had not run.

And I have no argument with your point that Layton and the NDP are far more principled than Martin and the Liberals.

And I favour legalization not decriminalization but at least the latter beats the status quo.

By the way, Layton has told Marc Emery he favours legalization. Is legalization part of the NDP platform?

[daniel]

It's also perception. Some people equate the NDP to socialism then to Communism and then to Pol Pot, Joseph Stalin, etc.

Also, the peception that the NDP is fiscally irresponsible when historically, both of other parties have the same kind of track record of 1) balancing budgets; 2) running up deficits.

[dragokatzov]

Has anyone ever heard of the saying united we stand, devided we fall? Well, the NDP is devided!i would say in many ridings, a large chunk of Liberal voters are voting liberal to prevent a tory from winning. If the NDP was truly united, they would be striking fear into the grits and torys. IF anyone wants the NDP to win, VOTE NDP! don't vote liberal if you want the ndp to win. This is exactly whats happening, and it can change and the NDP can be a powerful party

[scribblet]

It's also perception.  Some people equate the NDP to socialism then to Communism and then to Pol Pot, Joseph Stalin, etc.

Also, the peception that the NDP is fiscally irresponsible when historically, both of other parties have the same kind of track record of 1) balancing budgets; 2) running up deficits.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Some of the more radical lefies in the NDP are very close to communism, have you ready any of the more radical stuff on rabble?

BTW Layton did come up with a good concept, which I believe was a CPC idea, one with which I wholeheartedly agree. If not a by election then they should have to sit as an independant.

Jack Layton

MPs should not be allowed to change parties without resigning their seats and running in a byelection.

[normanchateau]

  Jack Layton

MPs should not be allowed to change parties without resigning their seats and running in a byelection.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're right Jack. Keith Martin is a good example of how MPs should switch parties. Just prior to the 2004 election, he abandoned CPC and ran as a Liberal candidate because of how offended he was by Harper's ongoing social conservatism. Keith Martin was re-elected as a Liberal in 2004.

[daniel]

Some of the more radical lefies in the NDP are very close to communism, have you ready any of the more radical stuff on rabble?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If we agree to to keep the discussion civil, I won't comment in kind about the off-the wall comments from FD.

[scribblet]

Some of the more radical lefies in the NDP are very close to communism, have you ready any of the more radical stuff on rabble?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If we agree to to keep the discussion civil, I won't comment in kind about the off-the wall comments from FD.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I believe in keeping all debate civil and on topic, some thread drift is unadvoidable.

[Black Dog]

Some of the more radical lefies in the NDP are very close to communism, have you ready any of the more radical stuff on rabble?

So therefore the NDP is a radical, communist party? I guess that means we can judge all the parties based on their most extreme followers. Is that a road the CPC believers wants to go down?

[scribblet]

Some of the more radical lefies in the NDP are very close to communism, have you ready any of the more radical stuff on rabble?

So therefore the NDP is a radical, communist party? I guess that means we can judge all the parties based on their most extreme followers. Is that a road the CPC believers wants to go down?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Where did I say that?

[hiti]

Some of the more radical lefies in the NDP are very close to communism, have you ready any of the more radical stuff on rabble?

So therefore the NDP is a radical, communist party? I guess that means we can judge all the parties based on their most extreme followers. Is that a road the CPC believers wants to go down?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The CPC can dish it out but they cannot take it.

CAW and the Alberta Union of Provincial Employees have stated their preference for NDP supporters to vote Liberal to keep Harper out. It would be interesting to know if this would make a difference in Alberta ridings. In 2000 Liberals and NDP voted PC to get Joe Clark elected. They could combined their votes again and elect a Liberal or NDP in some Alberta ridings.

I am sure this is the case across the country.

[Black Dog]

Where did I say that?

Your comment was a reply to the following

Some people equate the NDP to socialism then to Communism and then to Pol Pot, Joseph Stalin, etc.

In that context, your comment implies such associations are justified by the prescence of "radicals" in the NDP camp.

[shoop]

Kind of a childish comment to start, let's move to a more positive tone.

Alberta has 28 MPs. In 2004 26 went CPC and two went Liberal.

*IF* the votes received by the ND and Liberals candidates in every riding were combined the shockingly different results would be as follows.

24 CPC MPs, four ND/Liberal MPs.

The two *swing ridings would be Edmonton-Strathcona, which encompasses the University of Alberta and Edmonton-East, covering the blue collar heart of Edmonton.

Not that it would ever happen before.

Oh yeah, a lot of small-c conservatives helped in putting Joe Clark into office in Calgary Centre during the 2000 election. That riding was re-districted in 2004 into Calgary North Centre and Calgary South Centre. The CPC candidates in 2004 won 54% and 51% of the vote respectively. Oh, I get it. The ND and Liberal voters put Clark into office. Yeah, right.......

The CPC can dish it out but they cannot take it.

CAW and the Alberta Union of Provincial Employees have stated their preference for NDP supporters to vote Liberal to keep Harper out. It would be interesting to know if this would make a difference in Alberta ridings. In 2000 Liberals and NDP voted PC to get Joe Clark elected. They could combined their votes again and elect a Liberal or NDP in some Alberta ridings.

I am sure this is the case across the country.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Rovik]

I also think the NDP could of wine the 2004 bi-election in labrador if NDP caucus members visited the riding! 1 of the 2 provincial ridings there is help by a NDP, and they probably could of wone it if they tried. i would like to hear your opinions on this

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Winning the Labrador by-election would have been tough even if all the NDP's federal caucus visited during the by-election. The only person who could have won it for the NDP was Randy Collins (popular NDP MHA for Labrador West.) And even then it would have been close. Liberals own coastal Labrador and do well in other parts of Labrador

I also believe that if Randy Collins did run that you would have had Leyton and other federal NDPers visit the area.

[err]

In the last Ontario provincial election, everybody and their dog (just about) voted Liberal to be sure that the Progressive Conservatives would be ousted. Many NDP supporters did the same. There were about 5 ridings that were within 100 votes of an NDP success in the riding.... This strategic got us an overwhelming Liberal majority and nearly lost the NDP its funding due to very low seat count ..... where we could really have used better representation in the house...

The moral of the story is "do not strategic vote against the Conservatives ".... Vote Liberal if that is your inclination... and if your inclination is NDP, all the better... give them your vote....

The more NDP seats the better.... Look at what Jack Layton got for Canadian citizens this year .... Could you imagine if he had enough seats to properly control the Liberal minority....

[normanchateau]

The moral of the story is "do not strategic vote against the Conservatives "....  Vote Liberal if that is your inclination... and if your inclination is NDP, all the better... give them your vote....

I disagree. I can see voting strategically if you know your preferred candidate doesn't stand a chance. For example, in my riding the Reform and Liberal candidates were neck-and-neck in 1997 and a vote for the NDP would have meant a higher probability of election of the Reform candidate.

There are regional differences in whether strategic voting is likely to occur. I expect more of it in BC than in Ontario where a Liberal majority is a certainty. In BC in 2004, CPC took a remarkable 22 out of 36 seats with only 36% of the popular vote. In other words, they took more than 60% of the seats because parties to the left of Harper were split. Polls released in the last few days show CPC anywhere between 24 and 34% in BC meaning less than 22 seats next time but still the possibility of vote-splitting contributing to many CPC seats. Yet only a third of BC voters are right wingers.

[Black Dog]

I wonder: would some form of proportional represntation reduc eor eliminate teh need for strategic voting? It seems to me that, as a practice, strategic voting is entirely a byproduct of the first-past-the-post system.

[normanchateau]

I wonder: would some form of proportional represntation reduc eor eliminate teh need for strategic voting? It seems to me that, as a practice, strategic voting is entirely a byproduct of the first-past-the-post system.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Almost any form of proportional representation would eliminate the need for strategic voting. I doubt that either CPC or the Liberals would support anything but the first-past-the-post-system since the status quo allows either to govern with about 38% of the popular vote.

[tweedledee]

I wonder: would some form of proportional represntation reduc eor eliminate teh need for strategic voting? It seems to me that, as a practice, strategic voting is entirely a byproduct of the first-past-the-post system.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It probably would eliminate that need, but really isn't strategic voting just a tad on the hypocritical side.

Mind you, Layton's starting to bribe seniors now, hes announced a big package for them, and hes promised not to raise taxes. guess Jacko smells the writing on the wall.