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Supreme Court imposes cruelty on families


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1 minute ago, CdnFox said:

LOL - you appologize for being arrogant and then go on to be unbelievably arrogant.

Now you are lying.  I state something I believe is from the Bible and now you are calling me arrogant.  You have gone beyond the pale and falsely accusing me of arrogance now.   I might have had some arrogant tones in past comments, but you calling everything I say from the Bible is arrogant is something else.

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47 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Already explained all that at length.  I didn't mean to offend you by talking about the Bible and what it says.  You forbid me to talk about my beliefs.  So that's where we are.

You did not explain it at length in the slightest. Or at all.

It cannot be done. Brilliant minds have tried for generations. The states tries harder than anyone else ever has and even THEY admit it's not possible to make sure it NEVER happens. It does happen even tho them.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/sentenced-to-death-but-innocent-these-are-stories-of-justice-gone-wrong

And the COST of trying to prevent it is insane.

No rational or intelligent person can look at the facts and suggest there's a way to make sure it never happens, other than not doing it at all.

Lock them up, throw away the key, let them die alone and out of society. THat's the best we can do.

And i did not forbid you talking about your faith. But if you bring it into the discussion, you're going to get made fun of and not taken seriously. Your faith is not a substitute for reason or facts.

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2 hours ago, blackbird said:

Is a baby in the womb a separate life?  Why should someone have the right to end a baby's life?  How does that even fall under control over a woman's own body?  Isn't a baby a separate person?

Not until it is viable outside the womb.

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2 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Your faith is not a substitute for reason or facts.

Did you mean to say "my faith is not a substitute for YOUR reason or facts"?  Of course that's what you meant.  My faith is based on Biblical truth according to how I understand it.  It is perfect?  No, but it seems a lot closer to the truth.

Your reason or facts is based your world view which is the liberal world view.

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1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

Good thing I wore my boots today, 

cause your bullshit is getting real deep.

Awww muffin - considering how often you crap yourself here i'd expect you'd be more than used to the smell :)

Sigh, No brains AND no sense of humour. You must be the life of the party.

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56 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Did you mean to say "my faith is not a substitute for YOUR reason or facts"? 

No.  That's dumb.

Faith shouldn't be a substitute for reason for ANYONES reason or fact - facts and reason stand on their own divisible from the individual.

56 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Of course that's what you meant. 

Sigh. and the dumb continues....

56 minutes ago, blackbird said:

My faith is based on Biblical truth according to how I understand it.  It is perfect?  No, but it seems a lot closer to the truth.

Well that's great but it's still no substitute for reason or facts. If you came to me and said "the sun will rise in the west tomorrow because my bible said so", i would point out if that's what your bible says your bible is retarded.  You can say "no no no no - it will because that's the truth as i understand it" to your heart's content but it won't change the facts.

Biblical faith is not a replacement for facts or reason.  AND in those cases where what we are talking about is about belief rather than facts or reason'd logic then  - you have to recognize that it's YOUR belief and everybody else's beliefs are JUST as valid if 'belief' is relevant.

 

56 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Your reason or facts is based your world view which is the liberal world view.

First - the liberal world view has NOTHING to do with facts and very very little to do with reason.

Second - 'world view' is not relevant. A fact is a fact regardless of your global stance. Gravity is a temporal distortion which causes objects of mass to move towards each other.  That's a fact. It's the same fact no matter how you look at the world. Look at it any way you like, that's still what gravity is.

Do not confuse opinion and belief and facts and logic and reason. They are not synonymous. Opinion and belief do occasionally have a relevant spot in discussions but you cannot substitute them for reason or facts.

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2 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Biblical faith is not a replacement for facts or reason. 

You seem to place what you call facts or reason above divine revelation (Biblical truth).

I am not blaming you for that.  That is just the way it is with most people in the world.  If you took a poll you would find most people would agree with you.  Sadly, many people go by numbers, popularity, or polls to determine what is true and what is false.

So from what you said, I would think you would believe in evolution or Darwinism.  People claim that there is no God because they simply have a feeling that way or they have been taught somewhere along the line to think that.

So in place of God, they put other theories to try to explain things.  Things like the Big Bang or Darwinism which is the theory of evolution and ideas in connection with evolution.

Many scholars have debunked the theory of evolution.  But it would require writing a book to explain the reasons.

One good 273 page book is called "Darwin's Universe, From Nothing, By Nothing, For Nothing, Survival for Nothing" by Yan T. Wee.   The book debunks Darwinism from a number of angles.  It strikes me as a scholarly book on the subject.

However, I could probably make all kinds of arguments and still not convince you if you have your mind set.  If you really want to examine the other side of the issue, you will have to make some effort yourself such as reading various articles, perhaps get the book, watch some videos on creation.com.  There are literally thousands of articles and videos on the subject.  

The bottom line is the Bible is a supernatural book and creation in six literal days was a supernatural event.  I believe the universe could not come into existence by some kind of cosmic accident.  Life is far too complex for that.  An accident does not explain all the amazing laws of physics that govern the atoms, molecules, energy, and life itself.  It simply could not happen without an infinitely powerful designer-Creator we call God.

So I accept the explanation given in the beginning of the Bible which was written not to be a scientific explanation but a supernatural explanation of how everything came into existence.  One either believes that or doesn't.  Not believing it leads nowhere and does not explain life or it's meaning and purpose.

1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 

3  And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4  And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. {the light from…: Heb. between the light and between the darkness} 5  And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.. "  

Genesis 1:1-5 KJV   

Either everything has a purpose or there is no purpose to anything and we are all just blobs of chemicals that happened by chance or cosmic accident.

 

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1 minute ago, blackbird said:

You seem to place what you call facts or reason above divine revelation (Biblical truth)

They. Are. Not. The. Same.

It's like saying you put a screw above a bolt and nut.  They do different jobs - they are used in different places for different things.

Your problem is you inappropriately conflate them.  And to be honest that weakens your position because that's a sign of bad judgement, which calls into question your judgement regarding the scriptures

 

 

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14 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Your problem is you inappropriately conflate them.

The fact is the word reason is a very broad and lose word that can be applied to anything.  You claim whatever you say is based on "reason".  

I believe some words like reason, science, fact have always been used to make false arguments.

Just claiming something is reason or fact does not make it so.

False claims are often made with the argument that it is reason and fact.

I'll give you an example.

The theory of evolution or Darwinism claims mankind evolved from the scum in a pond.   This is often put forward as "scientific fact".  Wow!   This is a smear against genuine science.

Real science is based on the scientific method which means establishing a fact by repeatable experiment and observation of certain facts.   

" A dinosaur turning into a bird 150 Ma (million years ago) is neither observable in real time, directly or indirectly, nor repeatable."   Therefore this example of evolution is not a fact.  It is only a theory because it has never been observed and never nothing similar even has ever been done.  People need to learn the difference between scientific fact or knowledge and theory.   Evolution is pure theory and has been shot full of holes by many scientists themselves.

The Biblical account of creation is a record of a supernatural event which occurred.  It is not attempting to explain the universe in scientific terms.  God created science.  Science did not create God.  So what people call reason or fact does conflict with Biblical revelation on the subject of how the universe came about and who God is.

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1 hour ago, blackbird said:

The fact is the word reason is a very broad and lose word that can be applied to anything. 

It just isn't.  "reason'  is pretty well defined. It's simply a series of logical and rational facts and grounds that lead to a complete explanation of a conclusion or observable thing

You can't just dump god in there like you've taken Deus ex Machina to some weird new level.

As for your example....

Dude - that was the worst example ever. And so full of holes it isn't funny.  First off - YOU ARE EXACTLY THE SAME AS THE PEOPLE WHO CLAIM SUCH THINGS!!!  God is NOT observable - there is NOTHING in our universe that we can't explain without god - yet you INSIST IT"S FACT!!!! THAT IS MY PROBLEM with your arguments!

Yet JUST like them YOU insist it's absolute fact.

All you did is say how stupid it is for others to do exactly what you do!!  Go smak yourself in the head with a bat and see if it helps!

How do you not get that it's bad in one case and therefore ITS ALSO BAD IN YOURS?!?! Gad it's SO frustrating, it's like you've clutched on to religion as  a security blanket so tight that it suffocated your brain.

Edited by CdnFox
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25 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

It just isn't.  "reason'  is pretty well defined. It's simply a series of logical and rational facts and grounds that lead to a complete explanation of a conclusion or observable thing

You can't just dump god in there like you've taken Deus ex Machina to some weird new level.

As for your example....

Dude - that was the worst example ever. And so full of holes it isn't funny.  First off - YOU ARE EXACTLY THE SAME AS THE PEOPLE WHO CLAIM SUCH THINGS!!!  God is NOT observable - there is NOTHING in our universe that we can't explain without god - yet you INSIST IT"S FACT!!!! THAT IS MY PROBLEM with your arguments!

Yet JUST like them YOU insist it's absolute fact.

All you did is say how stupid it is for others to do exactly what you do!!  Go smak yourself in the head with a bat and see if it helps!

How do you not get that it's bad in one case and therefore ITS ALSO BAD IN YOURS?!?! Gad it's SO frustrating, it's like you've clutched on to religion as  a security blanket so tight that it suffocated your brain.

LOL    You need to relax a bit and think instead of going bizzerk.  You will never learn anything the way you are going.

God created everything you see around you.  Nothing could exist without God.  The atoms, molecules, energy, etc. all are very intricately designed and function according to precise laws of physics.  Those did not just happen out of the blue without a designer -Creator.  They required intelligent design.  It's not complicated to see that.   Did you ever notice the beauty in birds, or flowers?  That didn't just happen by chance.  They were created that way.

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4 minutes ago, blackbird said:

LOL    You need to relax a bit and think instead of going bizzerk. 

Sorry - watching excessive levels of dumb try to explain things is a little frustrating. Could you help out and be a bit smarter at all?

4 minutes ago, blackbird said:

God created everything you see around you. reated that way.

God created nothing. Prove me wrong.

You're no better than those who insist evolution is 'proven'.

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3 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Sorry - watching excessive levels of dumb try to explain things is a little frustrating. Could you help out and be a bit smarter at all?

God created nothing. Prove me wrong.

You're no better than those who insist evolution is 'proven'.

Its simple logic.  Nothing does not produce something.  Therefore in the beginning the universe could not appear out of nothing without a cause.  Every effect has a cause.  The universe had a beginning and that had a cause.  

Secondly, because of the intricate design and complexity, there had to have been information put into the universe for it to function.  That required an intelligence to design it.  The complexity of living organisms therefore required vast amounts of information built into them to function.  That too required a designer with infinite intelligence.

It boils down to simple logic.  There is no viable alternative explanation for the existence of everything.  Laws of logic and rational deduction.  Just saying it all happened by itself or by accident explains nothing.  The universe had to have been created.  It required a Creator to do that.

 

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8 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Its simple logic.  Nothing does not produce something. 

Man - this concept has been disproved so many times it isn't funny. Both in science and philosophy.

Something does frequently come from nothing. Go study quantum physics for a short while and you'll realize that. Futher there's nothing that suggests that there was 'nothing' before the big bang. 

I'll save the philosophy for your next one which is basically the same.

11 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Secondly, because of the intricate design and complexity, there had to have been information put into the universe for it to function. 

this is scientifically complete nonsense. We see complex interactions all the time with zero interaction with 'god'.  In fact - we can explain precisely how things came to be the way it is today going back to about one millionth of a  second or so after the big bang. There's no need for god to explain any of  it - we KNOW it can happen just fine without him.

In fact - the outcome was INEVITABLE given the input parameters. So it would have required god like powers to prevent it from happening.

And further -  Your argument is that nothing complex can just come into existence. But - that means god must have complexity, and if nothing complex can just come into existence without design then someone must have made god! He's very complex - he couldn't just have come into existence. Soooo either complex things CAN come into existence on their own OR you're worshiping a middleman.

Intelligent design is one of the LEAST successful arguments for god. That one got trashed many many years ago.

17 minutes ago, blackbird said:

It boils down to simple logic. 

If your 'logic' is an example then what it really boils down to is self delusion. Not the same thing.

17 minutes ago, blackbird said:

 

There is no viable alternative explanation for the existence of everything. 

There are tonnes of viable explanations. Did you think Christianity was the only religion with a creation myth? Those are all just as plausable.  And frankly as i said science can explain it just fine without a god at all. And occam's razor suggests that means god LIKELY doesn't exist.

Sorry - that's not proof. That's the kind of thing even first year scientists or philosophy students roll their eyes at.

 

So - you couldn't prove it.  Yet you demand i accept it.  Guess you and the dinosaur boys have more in common than you thought :)

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26 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Its simple logic.  Nothing does not produce something.  Therefore in the beginning the universe could not appear out of nothing without a cause.  Every effect has a cause.  The universe had a beginning and that had a cause.  

Secondly, because of the intricate design and complexity, there had to have been information put into the universe for it to function.  That required an intelligence to design it.  The complexity of living organisms therefore required vast amounts of information built into them to function.  That too required a designer with infinite intelligence.

It boils down to simple logic.  There is no viable alternative explanation for the existence of everything.  Laws of logic and rational deduction.  Just saying it all happened by itself or by accident explains nothing.  The universe had to have been created.  It required a Creator to do that.

 

If a God created the Universe, which is ~13.5 billion earth years old, what do you suppose it was doing in the billions of years before it created Earth, which is ~4.5 billion years old, and then why did it take a break before it created us, about 200000 years or so ago.

Was it off doing the same thing all over the universe?  Creating tons of viable planets and then creating life on them?  Do they all have a separate Heaven and Hell, or are you going to have to spend the rest of eternity with some weird alien types?

Edited by bcsapper
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4 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

f a God created the Universe, which is ~13.5 billion earth years old, what do you suppose it was doing in the billions of years before it created Earth, which is ~4.5 billion years old, and then why did it take a break before it created us, about 200000 years or so ago.

Hey ... hey... YOU give birth to a whole universe and see if YOU don't nap for a little while after too!  :)

 

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7 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

f a God created the Universe, which is ~13.5 billion earth years old, what do you suppose it was doing in the billions of years before it created Earth, which is ~4.5 billion years old, and then why did it take a break before it created us, about 200000 years or so ago.

According to Genesis in the Bible, God created everything in six days.  Now while the Bible doesn't say when this actually happened, by looking at the geneology of the descendants of Adam and Eve, it is believed to have occurred about six thousand years ago or so.  So the billions of years for the age of the earth is false.   If you want to read more about this go to creation.com   There are thousands of articles and videos explaining all this.

The main point is this was a supernatural act that happened.

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Just now, blackbird said:

According to Genesis in the Bible, God created everything in six days.  Now while the Bible doesn't say when this actually happened, by looking at the geneology of the descendants of Adam and Eve, it is believed to have occurred about six thousand years ago or so.  So the billions of years for the age of the earth is false.   If you want to read more about this go to creation.com   There are thousands of articles and videos explaining all this.

The main point is this was a supernatural act that happened.

Six Earth days or six God days?

There's a huge difference, you know.

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24 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Man - this concept has been disproved so many times it isn't funny. Both in science and philosophy.

Something does frequently come from nothing. Go study quantum physics for a short while and you'll realize that. Futher there's nothing that suggests that there was 'nothing' before the big bang. 

I'll save the philosophy for your next one which is basically the same.

this is scientifically complete nonsense. We see complex interactions all the time with zero interaction with 'god'.  In fact - we can explain precisely how things came to be the way it is today going back to about one millionth of a  second or so after the big bang. There's no need for god to explain any of  it - we KNOW it can happen just fine without him.

In fact - the outcome was INEVITABLE given the input parameters. So it would have required god like powers to prevent it from happening.

And further -  Your argument is that nothing complex can just come into existence. But - that means god must have complexity, and if nothing complex can just come into existence without design then someone must have made god! He's very complex - he couldn't just have come into existence. Soooo either complex things CAN come into existence on their own OR you're worshiping a middleman.

Intelligent design is one of the LEAST successful arguments for god. That one got trashed many many years ago.

If your 'logic' is an example then what it really boils down to is self delusion. Not the same thing.

There are tonnes of viable explanations. Did you think Christianity was the only religion with a creation myth? Those are all just as plausable.  And frankly as i said science can explain it just fine without a god at all. And occam's razor suggests that means god LIKELY doesn't exist.

Sorry - that's not proof. That's the kind of thing even first year scientists or philosophy students roll their eyes at.

 

So - you couldn't prove it.  Yet you demand i accept it.  Guess you and the dinosaur boys have more in common than you thought :)

I don't claim what I said is "proof".  I gave what I believe is evidence or logic.

Nobody was there when it happened.  So nobody has proof in the form of science or scientific method.  There are no eye witnesses.  There was nobody who saw any so-called Big Bang.  The Big Bang theory has been dismissed by many for several reasons.

First what caused the Big Bang?  Every action has to have a cause.   

Where did the material come from to cause the beginning of the universe?

You claim something can come from nothing, unless it is a supernatural action.  If you are speaking about natural events, any scientists would say nothing can come from nothing.  There has to be a cause.

 For there to be something happen, there had to have been something to cause it, whether it is energy of some type or particles or something.  You need to recognize that and admit you are in error.

Edited by blackbird
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4 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Six Earth days or six God days?

There's a huge difference, you know.

Many say those are literal days.  Because of the way it is written, it appears to be speaking in a literal manner.  Since it was a supernatural event, of course it could happen in six days.  With God nothing is impossible.

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2 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Many say those are literal days.  Because of the way it is written, it appears to be speaking in a literal manner.  Since it was a supernatural event, of course it could happen in six days.  With God nothing is impossible.

But there would not have been any literal days for about half the time it took.  A day is the amount of time it takes the Earth to rotate on its axis, and the Earth wasn't created until day 3.  It would have been day 4 before a day could even exist.

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10 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I don't claim what I said is "proof".  I gave what I believe is evidence or logic.

Proof does not have to be absolute to be proof per se. But as we saw, the logic and evidence you provided was disproven long before even I started studying.

10 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Nobody was there when it happened.  So nobody has proof in the form of science or scientific method. 

that is not accurate. In fact science and the scientific method can quite accurately predict and model things and does so all the time. And we have a lot of things that WERE there to look at, like the cosmic background radiation.  For us it's like piecing together what happened in a plane crash - lots and lots of things to examine and a solid working knowledge of the physics and engineering, and you can usually come up with a pretty solid answer.

10 minutes ago, blackbird said:

There are no eye witnesses. 

There's video tape :)  the event left behind all kinds of information like the CMB and such which shows us what happened.

10 minutes ago, blackbird said:

There was nobody who saw any so-called Big Bang.  The Big Bang theory has been dismissed by many for several reasons.

No it hasn't. At best you can say many don't think the original source was a singularity, but that's not surprising. it is universally agreed upon as to what happened less than a second after the big bang and for the next 16 billion years.

10 minutes ago, blackbird said:

First what caused the Big Bang?  Every action has to have a cause.   

No it doesn't. Causality only applies within the fabric of spacetime. Without that causality is not necessary. You're just having trouble thinking outside your limited understanding of the universe.

10 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Where did the material come from to cause the beginning of the universe?

You're asking the wrong question. We know the answer to that, as the universe cools the quantum fields form as part of space time and fluctuations in those fields cause the material, and we even know the order that the materials came into existance in.  Matter is spontaneously formed and annihilated around us constantly.

  The REAL question is where did the matter GO? The formation of that material  is constant as i said but is always accompanied by the formation of anti-matter as well and the two cancel each other almost instantly and the engery is returned to the quantum field.  -  sooooo why didn't that happen when our matter was being formed? Where did all the anti matter go that should have cancelled out the matter?  There are theories but we know where matter comes from.

10 minutes ago, blackbird said:

You claim something can come from nothing, unless it is a supernatural action.  If you are speaking about natural events, any scientists would say nothing can come from nothing.  There has to be a cause.

Sorry kid - something can come from nothing. Don't confuse spacetime as the whole of existance.

For example nothing can travel faster (or slower actually) than the speed of light. Yet the universe is expanding faster than the speed of light. Impossible yes? nope its possible. Once you understand the trick of it then it makes sense, Your problem is a lack of knoweldge.

10 minutes ago, blackbird said:

 For there to be something happen, there had to have been something to cause it, whether it is energy of some type or particles or something.  You need to recognize that and admit you are in error.

No causality only is a thing in space time.

Sorry - once again this is a lack of knowledge

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19 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

But there would not have been any literal days for about half the time it took.  A day is the amount of time it takes the Earth to rotate on its axis, and the Earth wasn't created until day 3.  It would have been day 4 before a day could even exist.

"

1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 

3  And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4  And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.  5  And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. "

I just accept it as stated.  No need to try to dissect every word or reinterpret it.  

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