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2 hours ago, blackbird said:

You are.  That's not how the Bible is interpreted.  If you don't believe me, Google it or ask any minister of a church.

“Interpreted.”

That is the term you chose.

Your interpretation is perfectly fine with me, you have the liberty to do that, until you start demanding that we pass laws that enforce your interpretation. America was settled and founded by very religious people who were fleeing other Christian people who were doing precisely that.  Did you know that? Like, the Pilgrims, Quakers and Shakers were Christians fleeing from the persecution of other Christians? So when we wrote a Constitution, we specifically stated that the government shall be separate from religion. 
 

Mark My Words: The instant America becomes a government that is lead by religion is the instant you will be persecuted for your religious views. Because some other guy will gain power who “interprets” differently than you do.  Next thing you know, America will be no different than Iran. Think it can’t happen? Hello? Who came here to settle the country in the first place?

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39 minutes ago, Rebound said:

“Interpreted.”

That is the term you chose.

Your interpretation is perfectly fine with me, you have the liberty to do that, until you start demanding that we pass laws that enforce your interpretation. America was settled and founded by very religious people who were fleeing other Christian people who were doing precisely that.  Did you know that? Like, the Pilgrims, Quakers and Shakers were Christians fleeing from the persecution of other Christians? So when we wrote a Constitution, we specifically stated that the government shall be separate from religion. 
 

Mark My Words: The instant America becomes a government that is lead by religion is the instant you will be persecuted for your religious views. Because some other guy will gain power who “interprets” differently than you do.  Next thing you know, America will be no different than Iran. Think it can’t happen? Hello? Who came here to settle the country in the first place?

I have already said many times, many laws and human rights are based on Judeo-Christian civilization and historical biblical beliefs.  Nobody is planning to impose a religious government.  That is fiction.  Christians in north America are already persecuted, just not to the extent of other counties.  But since you are an atheist or non-believer, it is almost impossible to have a rational discussion or agree on anything.  Your world view is totally alien to normal Christianity or Judeo-Christianity.

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1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

It was important to condense that, it got a bit lengthy.

You didn't explain anything, you just keep on saying things which are patently stupid.

The stupidest thing I've done is hold out hope you might understand. 

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A. They do if you break down the difference in the number of covid deaths, per category, during the time frames in between the dates that the data was released on. It is exactly what they do. It doesn't matter how many died on each day, that would just be a collection of small sample sizes. 

The difference in the number is not a rate. It doesn't speak in any way to vaccine efficacy. How do you not get this? It's basic, basic, basic. Again, if 100% of people were vaccinated 100% of the deaths would be among the vaccinated. If you can't grasp that basic fact there is no hope for you.

Quote

B. Jesus Christ man, you're thick as two short bricks glued together. That's not the number of people who died on that day. It's the number of people who died since the very 1st day of vaxing - Dec 14 2020. Subtract the number of people who were dead on May 1 2022 from the number of people who were dead on Aug 24 2022 and then you know how many people died between May 1 and Aug 24

Serious question: Do you know the meaning of the word "cumulative"?  The fact that you are still, stubbornly and stupidly, trying to wring meaning from the total number of deaths is a f*cking monument to obstinance. 

If that count goes on for another few years the number of vaccinated deaths will vastly outnumber the unvaxxed deaths. An idiot would look at that and think the vaccines were poison! The rest of us know those numbers are useless in terms of examining efficacy. Because. You. Should. Be. Looking. At. Rates.

 

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C. Stupid AF. I give up on you

Dunning and Kruger should do a case study on you. I don't know that I've met anyone whose confidence is more inversely correlated with competence. Coupled with extreme rudeness, it's really a spectacular implosion.

The rates are right here: Open your damn eyes and look at them. The death rates among the unvaccinated are many times higher than among the vaccinated. A child- not even a particularly bright child -could look at the chart I posted above and understand that simple fact. The vaccines are effective. 

Here is the original source for the death count chart you posted (rightmost box -identical numbers). 

image.thumb.png.526a24510a62bd7abc7bbcf0f4e35306.png

 

Can you guess what it says in the notes? (Spoiler: It's exactly what I've been telling you for several days.)

"Most people in Canada have been vaccinated. Because they’re a larger group, there will naturally be more cases among vaccinated people than among unvaccinated people. However, despite their higher case counts, vaccinated people are less likely to get very sick or die."

...

And (same page) for current efficacy specifically regarding outcomes: "People who were diagnosed with COVID-19 after completing their primary vaccine series were significantly less likely to be hospitalized or to die, particularly if they received an additional dose(s).

Between August 1, 2022 and August 28, 2022, unvaccinated cases were 5 times more likely to be hospitalized and 7 times more likely to die from their illness, compared to cases with a completed primary vaccine series. During the same 4-week period, unvaccinated cases were 7 times more likely to be hospitalized and 8 times more likely to die from their illness, compared to cases with a completed primary vaccine series and 1 or more additional doses (see data notes in Technical notes and definitions section)."

 

^^It's the notes from the actual stats you provided. I've told you all along that you don't understand them and are misusing them. Couldn't be more open and shut. Still, I expect you're not honorable enough to admit you were wrong and are likely to go on spreading FUD, killing people with vaccine disinformation.

 

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10 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I have already said many times, many laws and human rights are based on Judeo-Christian civilization and historical biblical beliefs.  Nobody is planning to impose a religious government.  That is fiction.  Christians in north America are already persecuted, just not to the extent of other counties.  But since you are an atheist or non-believer, it is almost impossible to have a rational discussion or agree on anything.  Your world view is totally alien to normal Christianity or Judeo-Christianity.

Christians aren’t being “persecuted”. Christians are the persecutors.  Baking a birthday cake for somebody isn’t “persecution”. 
 

Let me unwind the nonsense: “Waaah!!! Boo Hoo!!! We aren’t allowed to discriminate against people! That’s persecution! God wants us to mistreat people and deny them of their rights and we’re being persecuted because we aren’t allowed to!  Poor us! Wah-Wah!”

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2 minutes ago, Hodad said:

The stupidest thing I've said I've done is hold out hope you might understand. 

The difference in the number is not a rate. How do you not get this? It's basic, basic, basic. Again, if 100% of people were vaccinated 100% of the deaths would be among the vaccinated. If you can't grasp that basic fact there is no hope for you.

Serious question: Do you know the meaning of the word "cumulative"?  The fact that you are still, stubbornly and stupidly, trying to wring meaning from the total number of deaths is a f*cking monument to obstinance. 

If that count goes on for another few years the number of vaccinated deaths will vastly outnumber the unvaxxed deaths. An idiot would look at that and think the vaccines were poison! The rest of us know those numbers are useless in terms of examining efficacy. Because. You. Should. Be. Looking. At. Rates.

 

Dunning and Kruger should do a case study on you. I don't know that I've met anyone whose confidence is more inversely correlated with competence. Coupled with extreme rudeness, it's really a spectacular implosion.

The rates are right here: Open your damn eyes and look at them. The death rates among the unvaccinated are many times higher than among the vaccinated. A child- not even a particularly bright child -could look at the chart I posted above and understand that simple fact. The vaccines are effective. 

Here is the original source for the death count chart you posted (rightmost box -identical numbers). 

image.thumb.png.526a24510a62bd7abc7bbcf0f4e35306.png

 

Can you guess what it says in the notes? (Spoiler: It's exactly what I've been telling you for several days.)

"Most people in Canada have been vaccinated. Because they’re a larger group, there will naturally be more cases among vaccinated people than among unvaccinated people. However, despite their higher case counts, vaccinated people are less likely to get very sick or die."

...

And (same page) for current efficacy specifically regarding outcomes: "People who were diagnosed with COVID-19 after completing their primary vaccine series were significantly less likely to be hospitalized or to die, particularly if they received an additional dose(s).

Between August 1, 2022 and August 28, 2022, unvaccinated cases were 5 times more likely to be hospitalized and 7 times more likely to die from their illness, compared to cases with a completed primary vaccine series. During the same 4-week period, unvaccinated cases were 7 times more likely to be hospitalized and 8 times more likely to die from their illness, compared to cases with a completed primary vaccine series and 1 or more additional doses (see data notes in Technical notes and definitions section)."

 

^^It's the notes from the actual stats you provided. I've told you all along that you don't understand them and are misusing them. Couldn't be more open and shut. Still, I expect you're not honorable enough to admit you were wrong and are likely to go on spreading FUD, killing people with vaccine disinformation.

image.png

Dude, you’ve made your point. He’s a dummy and you can’t fix stupid. He doesn’t care what the truth is. 
 

A friend of a friend is a big-time Trumper. So of course she wouldn’t get vaccinated or wear masks. Cause Trump. She got Covid very bad, recovered, and a year later, she’s going to hospitals regularly with pulmonary problems. She has long Covid and it’s going to take years off her life but she still won’t get vaccinated or admit that the vaccine could have helped her. 

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6 minutes ago, Rebound said:

Dude, you’ve made your point. He’s a dummy and you can’t fix stupid. He doesn’t care what the truth is. 
 

They say don't beat a dead horse, but a dead horse doesn't go around discouraging people from getting vaccinated. ?‍♀️

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1 hour ago, Rebound said:

Christians aren’t being “persecuted”. Christians are the persecutors.  Baking a birthday cake for somebody isn’t “persecution”. 
 

Let me unwind the nonsense: “Waaah!!! Boo Hoo!!! We aren’t allowed to discriminate against people! That’s persecution! God wants us to mistreat people and deny them of their rights and we’re being persecuted because we aren’t allowed to!  Poor us! Wah-Wah!”

"In Canada, Persecution of Christians Escalates"

"In this interview with The New American magazine’s Senior Editor Alex Newman, Canadian commentator and Christian evangelist Laura-Lynn Tyler Thompson explains that persecution against Christians and those who resist the transgender/LGBT agenda. It has now reached the point where parents can be jailed for not supporting their children’s delusions about being the other gender and trying to resist irreversible medical “treatments.” Meanwhile, pastors are being arrested, jailed, and threatened for continuing to hold services in the face of COVID19 restrictions put in place by government. This will be coming soon to America if Americans are not careful, the two warned."

In Canada, Persecution of Christians Escalates - The New American

"Yes, Christians are being persecuted in America. Here’s how we can respond"

"

A small selection of abundant examples

What counts as persecution then? Any number of different things. It could be being slandered and mocked for your faith. Or being passed over for a promotion at your consulting firm because you refused to fly the Pride flag from your cupholder during June. It’s anything and everything from suffering social ostracization to getting put on trains and taken to death camps. Christians would do well to recover a robust understanding of this, and prepare for it, rather than sticking their heads in the sands of the cultural pablum about how the real threat is a “rising theocracy” or “Christo-fascism.”

Consider that churches were forced to close, with no solid scientific evidence supporting that decision at the time (nor provided since) for months in 2020 and into 2021, even as casinos and strip clubs were allowed to stay open.

For years, private Christian business owners have been dragged to court, targeted for destruction by the LGBTQ+ movement.

The IRS has been caught targeting Christian non-profits.

Don’t forget about how, under the Obama Administration, the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) relentlessly prosecuted the Christian charity Little Sisters of the Poor over their religious beliefs against paying to provide for abortifacient contraceptives. It took almost a decade for the Little Sisters to finally prevail at the Supreme Court.

Let’s keep listing examples:

  •  Jack Phillips, the baker, has been harassed for over a decade, bombarded with requests to make the most profane cakes, and dragged in and out of court simply for trying to run his business as a Christian (persecution that continues despite his having prevailed at the Supreme Court).
  • Barronelle Stutzman, a florist, was eventually forced into retirement because she also refused to compromise on her traditional Christian faith commitments and participate in the celebration of sin.
  • Coach Joe Kennedy was fired for exercising his First Amendment rights to pray to God in public. It took him almost seven years to fight to undo this unjust persecution, prevailing only when the Supreme Court ruled that “a government entity sought to punish an individual for engaging in a brief, quiet, personal religious observance doubly protected by the Free Exercise and Free Speech Clauses of the First Amendment…the Constitution neither mandates nor tolerates that kind of discrimination.”

Legally we might call this “discrimination,” but make no mistake, it is also persecution: persecution against Christians because of their faith in Jesus Christ as King and their refusal to compromise on the basic teachings of the Bible.

I’ve heard from Christians who know they are unlikely to ever get promoted past a certain point at major corporations and consulting firms for holding to their sexual ethics.

What do you call it when a Christian is fired for believing that, according to God’s Word, God made men as men and women as women and only those two genders? Or for refusing to tell lies by using she/her or they/them to describe he/him?

It’s persecution.

I would also use that word to describe the recent slew of attacks on churches across the country, including, most recently, in Maryland. The Catholic Courier reports that “A Catholic church in the Washington suburb of Bethesda was one of three houses of worship along the same road to be victimized by vandalism the weekend of July 9-10.” One of those buildings was set on fire.

Even crisis pregnancy centers, many of them run by Christians, are under attack because they promote life, rather than death. Since early May, when the Dobbs decision was leaked suggesting that Roe v. Wade would be overturned, they have been threatened, vandalized, and firebombed. And Sen. Elizabeth Warren, D-Mass, another one of the more outspoken progressive politicians in our country, is angrily encouraging even more of such violence.

I could go on."

Yes, Christians are being persecuted in America | Voice (christianpost.com)

Also, how many churches, including different denominations, have been burned or vandalized after the so-called "unmarked graves" began being broadcast across Canada?

Then there is the federal liberal decree where they refused to give funding to organizations for student summer jobs if the organization was in any way connected to any church or group that supported pro life or opposed abortion.

Edited by blackbird
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1 hour ago, Rebound said:

Christians aren’t being “persecuted”. Christians are the persecutors.  Baking a birthday cake for somebody isn’t “persecution”. 
 

Let me unwind the nonsense: “Waaah!!! Boo Hoo!!! We aren’t allowed to discriminate against people! That’s persecution! God wants us to mistreat people and deny them of their rights and we’re being persecuted because we aren’t allowed to!  Poor us! Wah-Wah!”

quote

Federal Bill to ban ‘Conversion Therapy’

It seems that many of these steps, steadily eroding Christian freedom, may now be coming to a head at the federal level with an ideologically motivated effort to actually criminalise services and practices that the government believes are rooted in ‘myths’ about the human person.

Proposed legislation originally called “Bill C-8”, An Act to amend the Criminal Code, had proposed to brandish criminal law against so-called ‘conversion therapy’ and is now expected to reappear this Fall unchanged but under a different number. Bill C-8 states clearly in its preamble: “conversion therapy … is based on and propagates myths and stereotypes about sexual orientation and gender identity, including the myth that a person’s sexual orientation and gender identity can and ought to be changed.”

Clearly here, Biblical truth (cf. 1 Cor. 6: 9-11) and the historic teaching of the church concerning human sexuality are condemned as myth and Christ’s call to repentance from sexual sin is overtly rejected.  Justice Minister David Lametti explained his rationale for the ban, saying: “Conversion therapy is premised on a lie, that being homosexual, lesbian, bisexual or trans is wrong and in need of fixing. Not only is that false, it sends a demeaning and a degrading message that undermines the dignity of individuals.” So, on the authority of Mr. Lametti, God’s Word, the authority of Christ, the teaching of the universal Church and centuries of normative understandings of the human person are dismissed as lies to be overthrown, with resisters cast into prison.

With the seriousness of this threat in mind, it would be important to know how ‘conversion therapy’ is actually being defined. The bill’s definition is as follows:

Conversion therapy means a practice, treatment or service designed to change a person’s sexual orientation to heterosexual or gender identity to cisgender, or to repress or reduce non-heterosexual attraction or sexual behaviour.

The language of the bill already presupposes the validity of fictive ideological concepts in queer theory by using terms like ‘cisgender’ for the biological binary norm of male and female. It seems incredible that such a bill could be coming before the House of Commons from the government, but this is the reality facing Christians in Canada.

The Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms, in a paper entitled ‘Unconscionable and Unconstitutional (May 12, 2020)’, has warned Canadians that:

“Bill C-8 directly confronts the teaching of cultural and religious beliefs about sexuality and gender with the threat of imprisonment. It also severely restricts the ability of consenting adults to voluntarily receive the supports of their choice in relation to sexuality and gender by making it criminal to advertise or receive material benefit from ‘conversion therapy’ as overbroadly defined … Bill C-8 imposes broad criminal prohibitions that violate Canadian human rights and constitutional freedoms, including Charter rights to liberty and security of the person, freedom of expression, freedom of conscience and religion and equality.”

What the bill in fact does is remove meaningful personal choice by imposing the affirmation and promotion of homosexuality and/or gender transition as the only acceptable form of counsel, guidance or treatment – especially for children experiencing gender identity distress. Under the cover of outlawing barbaric and harmful ‘treatments’ that no-one actually practices, a radical and ideologically pagan view of sexuality and gender is enforced by making the definition of ‘conversion therapy’ so wide (including spiritual, medical and psychological supports) that youth with unwanted feelings or addictions would have no choice but to have ‘treatments’ that either reinforce these unwanted feelings and addictions, or permanently alter their bodies. It does this by banning alternative supports with the threat of imprisonment, violating the Charter rights and freedoms of children, their parents, church communities and health care professionals.

unquote

On the brink: the criminalisation of Christianity in Canada - Christian Concern

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2 hours ago, Hodad said:

The stupidest thing I've done is hold out hope you might understand.

Now you've just switched to gaslighting because your lies and stupidity aren't working.

Quote

The difference in the number is not a rate. It doesn't speak in any way to vaccine efficacy. How do you not get this? It's basic, basic, basic.

The number of deaths between two points of time = the death rate. It's just a raw number, sure, but we also know what percentage of the population those deaths are occurring in, do you understand me? 

The number of deaths among the unvaxed between May 1 and Aug 24 = the number of deaths among 14% of our population over 3 months and 24 days. That's a rate. It's not cute and square like "deaths per month per 100,000 people", but it's the exact same time frame as the one below, so unjabbed people had the exact same number of minutes to die as pseudo-vaxed people did. A straight-line comparison can be made between the two. 

The number of deaths among the pseudo-vaxed between May 1 and Aug 24 is = the number of deaths among 86% of our population over 3 months and 24 days. That's a rate. It's not cute and square like "deaths per month per 100,000 people", but it's the exact same time frame as the one above, so pseudo-vaxed people had the exact same number of minutes to die as unjabbed people did. A straight-line comparison can be made between the two. 

I hope you get it - the exact same standard (# of deaths) has been applied to both groups over the exact same period of time. If you don't get that then never say the word number again.

Moving along now... there are 86% pseudos and only 14% unjabbed, that's [86/14 = 6] six times as many, so if we gave the top group nothing, and gave the bottom group red shirts, we'd expect to see six times as many deaths among the people with red shirts, knowing that red shirts don't prevent covid deaths. 

Swap out "red shirts" and put "vaccinated" in the paragraph above, and the grey part at the end of the paragraph would look something like "we'd expect to see far less than six times as many deaths among the vaccinated, knowing that the vaccine would prevent covid deaths. 

Right? You're expecting to see fewer vaccinated people die, all things being equal. 

But here's the thing... in Canada, out in the real world where the vaccinated rubber meets the road, we don't see "far less than 6x as many deaths among the vaccinated". We see "slightly more than 6x as many deaths among the vaccinated"

Quote

Again, if 100% of people were vaccinated 100% of the deaths would be among the vaccinated. If you can't grasp that basic fact there is no hope for you.

At least that much is true, and I'm glad you pointed that out, because if we had a 100% vax rate, then the gov't could say anything they wanted about the jab. 

Trudeau could say "3M people died of covid this year - thanks to the jab. Without it, 30 million would have died. Make sure to take the jab, or you'll almost certainly die."

How would you know any better? Once everyone is vaxed, there's no longer a control group, and we will be 100% at the mercy of vaccine propaganda. 

Quote

Serious question: Do you know the meaning of the word "cumulative"?  The fact that you are still, stubbornly and stupidly, trying to wring meaning from the total number of deaths is a f*cking monument to obstinance. 

Serious question, do you understand proportions? The fact that you are still, stubbornly and stupidly, trying to pretend that the total number of deaths between the two groups of people over the exact same period of time is meaningless is a f*cking monument to abject stupidity.

Sure, it would be nice if the split was 50/50, so we wouldn't have to make allowances for one group being larger than the other, but one group is just 6x larger. We just need to understand that, and make our comparisons knowing that one group is six times larger. It's not rocket science.  

Quote

If that count goes on for another few years the number of vaccinated deaths will vastly outnumber the unvaxxed deaths. An idiot would look at that and think the vaccines were poison! The rest of us know those numbers are useless in terms of examining efficacy. Because. You. Should. Be. Looking. At. Rates.

The reason why the total count is skewed against the unvaxed is because 99% of Canadians were unvaxed for the first 5 months, and it was flu season. 

The reason why the vaxed count is catching up so fast is because of two things: 1) there are 6x as many of them now, and 2) 6x as many of them are dying. 

That might look like a coincidence to you, but anyone with a basic understanding of math knows that would make a straight line on a vector diagram. 

Twice as many jabbed people, twice as many deaths. 3x as many jabbed, 3x as many deaths. 6x as many jabbed.... guess Hodad. Guess ffs.... 6x as many deaths. 

Don't wait for anyone that you respect and admire to do any statistics based on how many people are actually dying in Canada, because those stats won't sell any vaccines. 

Quote

Dunning and Kruger should do a case study on you. I don't know that I've met anyone whose confidence is more inversely correlated with competence.

It's so odd that you'd say that, because you're the person who got caught trying to pass off blatant propaganda as stats. 

You don't understand basic proportions. 6x as many people, same period of time....

Your head is way up your ass. All yu can do is recite propaganda. 

Quote

Can you guess what it says in the notes? (Spoiler: It's exactly what I've been telling you for several days.)

"Most people in Canada have been vaccinated. Because they’re a larger group, there will naturally be more cases among vaccinated people than among unvaccinated people. However, despite their higher case counts, vaccinated people are less likely to get very sick or die."

That's weird, because there are only 6x as many of them, and 6x as many are dying. 

I'm pretty sure you don't know what to make of that, so just move on...

Quote

And (same page) for current efficacy specifically regarding outcomes: "People who were diagnosed with COVID-19 after completing their primary vaccine series were significantly less likely to be hospitalized or to die, particularly if they received an additional dose(s).

The death by vax status stats in Canada just called. They said "That's BS."

But don't let mere stats fool you. Fauci has spoken. 

Quote

Between August 1, 2022 and August 28, 2022, unvaccinated cases were 5 times more likely to be hospitalized and 7 times more likely to die from their illness, compared to cases with a completed primary vaccine series. During the same 4-week period, unvaccinated cases were 7 times more likely to be hospitalized and 8 times more likely to die from their illness, compared to cases with a completed primary vaccine series and 1 or more additional doses (see data notes in Technical notes and definitions section)."

 

^^It's the notes from the actual stats you provided. I've told you all along that you don't understand them and are misusing them. Couldn't be more open and shut. Still, I expect you're not honorable enough to admit you were wrong and are likely to go on spreading FUD, killing people with vaccine disinformation.

I'm glad they write stupid shit like that there, because it's the only reason they're allowed to print those stats. Their own numbers say the exact opposite. 

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3 hours ago, blackbird said:

"In Canada, Persecution of Christians Escalates"

"In this interview with The New American magazine’s Senior Editor Alex Newman, Canadian commentator and Christian evangelist Laura-Lynn Tyler Thompson explains that persecution against Christians and those who resist the transgender/LGBT agenda. It has now reached the point where parents can be jailed for not supporting their children’s delusions about being the other gender and trying to resist irreversible medical “treatments.” Meanwhile, pastors are being arrested, jailed, and threatened for continuing to hold services in the face of COVID19 restrictions put in place by government. This will be coming soon to America if Americans are not careful, the two warned."

In Canada, Persecution of Christians Escalates - The New American

"Yes, Christians are being persecuted in America. Here’s how we can respond"

"

A small selection of abundant examples

What counts as persecution then? Any number of different things. It could be being slandered and mocked for your faith. Or being passed over for a promotion at your consulting firm because you refused to fly the Pride flag from your cupholder during June. It’s anything and everything from suffering social ostracization to getting put on trains and taken to death camps. Christians would do well to recover a robust understanding of this, and prepare for it, rather than sticking their heads in the sands of the cultural pablum about how the real threat is a “rising theocracy” or “Christo-fascism.”

Consider that churches were forced to close, with no solid scientific evidence supporting that decision at the time (nor provided since) for months in 2020 and into 2021, even as casinos and strip clubs were allowed to stay open.

For years, private Christian business owners have been dragged to court, targeted for destruction by the LGBTQ+ movement.

The IRS has been caught targeting Christian non-profits.

Don’t forget about how, under the Obama Administration, the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) relentlessly prosecuted the Christian charity Little Sisters of the Poor over their religious beliefs against paying to provide for abortifacient contraceptives. It took almost a decade for the Little Sisters to finally prevail at the Supreme Court.

Let’s keep listing examples:

  •  Jack Phillips, the baker, has been harassed for over a decade, bombarded with requests to make the most profane cakes, and dragged in and out of court simply for trying to run his business as a Christian (persecution that continues despite his having prevailed at the Supreme Court).
  • Barronelle Stutzman, a florist, was eventually forced into retirement because she also refused to compromise on her traditional Christian faith commitments and participate in the celebration of sin.
  • Coach Joe Kennedy was fired for exercising his First Amendment rights to pray to God in public. It took him almost seven years to fight to undo this unjust persecution, prevailing only when the Supreme Court ruled that “a government entity sought to punish an individual for engaging in a brief, quiet, personal religious observance doubly protected by the Free Exercise and Free Speech Clauses of the First Amendment…the Constitution neither mandates nor tolerates that kind of discrimination.”

Legally we might call this “discrimination,” but make no mistake, it is also persecution: persecution against Christians because of their faith in Jesus Christ as King and their refusal to compromise on the basic teachings of the Bible.

I’ve heard from Christians who know they are unlikely to ever get promoted past a certain point at major corporations and consulting firms for holding to their sexual ethics.

What do you call it when a Christian is fired for believing that, according to God’s Word, God made men as men and women as women and only those two genders? Or for refusing to tell lies by using she/her or they/them to describe he/him?

It’s persecution.

I would also use that word to describe the recent slew of attacks on churches across the country, including, most recently, in Maryland. The Catholic Courier reports that “A Catholic church in the Washington suburb of Bethesda was one of three houses of worship along the same road to be victimized by vandalism the weekend of July 9-10.” One of those buildings was set on fire.

Even crisis pregnancy centers, many of them run by Christians, are under attack because they promote life, rather than death. Since early May, when the Dobbs decision was leaked suggesting that Roe v. Wade would be overturned, they have been threatened, vandalized, and firebombed. And Sen. Elizabeth Warren, D-Mass, another one of the more outspoken progressive politicians in our country, is angrily encouraging even more of such violence.

I could go on."

Yes, Christians are being persecuted in America | Voice (christianpost.com)

Also, how many churches, including different denominations, have been burned or vandalized after the so-called "unmarked graves" began being broadcast across Canada?

Then there is the federal liberal decree where they refused to give funding to organizations for student summer jobs if the organization was in any way connected to any church or group that supported pro life or opposed abortion.

I’m going to ignore this reply because it’s an extremely long cut and paste. Point the salient facts out:

Florists are being “persecuted” because they aren’t allowed to discriminate. 
Bakers are “persecuted” because they can’t discriminate. 
A football coach who was a public employee of a public school could not loudly publicly pray on government property during a government event. Is he allowed to pray silently? Yes. Is he allowed to pray at home? Yes. Is he allowed to pray on a street corner? Yes. Is he allowed to pray in church? Yes. Is he allowed to establish the religion used at a public school which is open to all faiths? No. At least, I certainly hope not. 
 

And please remind us what Jesus said about people who pray loudly in public.  

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2 hours ago, blackbird said:

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Federal Bill to ban ‘Conversion Therapy’

It seems that many of these steps, steadily eroding Christian freedom, may now be coming to a head at the federal level with an ideologically motivated effort to actually criminalise services and practices that the government believes are rooted in ‘myths’ about the human person.

Proposed legislation originally called “Bill C-8”, An Act to amend the Criminal Code, had proposed to brandish criminal law against so-called ‘conversion therapy’ and is now expected to reappear this Fall unchanged but under a different number. Bill C-8 states clearly in its preamble: “conversion therapy … is based on and propagates myths and stereotypes about sexual orientation and gender identity, including the myth that a person’s sexual orientation and gender identity can and ought to be changed.”

Clearly here, Biblical truth (cf. 1 Cor. 6: 9-11) and the historic teaching of the church concerning human sexuality are condemned as myth and Christ’s call to repentance from sexual sin is overtly rejected.  Justice Minister David Lametti explained his rationale for the ban, saying: “Conversion therapy is premised on a lie, that being homosexual, lesbian, bisexual or trans is wrong and in need of fixing. Not only is that false, it sends a demeaning and a degrading message that undermines the dignity of individuals.” So, on the authority of Mr. Lametti, God’s Word, the authority of Christ, the teaching of the universal Church and centuries of normative understandings of the human person are dismissed as lies to be overthrown, with resisters cast into prison.

With the seriousness of this threat in mind, it would be important to know how ‘conversion therapy’ is actually being defined. The bill’s definition is as follows:

Conversion therapy means a practice, treatment or service designed to change a person’s sexual orientation to heterosexual or gender identity to cisgender, or to repress or reduce non-heterosexual attraction or sexual behaviour.

The language of the bill already presupposes the validity of fictive ideological concepts in queer theory by using terms like ‘cisgender’ for the biological binary norm of male and female. It seems incredible that such a bill could be coming before the House of Commons from the government, but this is the reality facing Christians in Canada.

The Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms, in a paper entitled ‘Unconscionable and Unconstitutional (May 12, 2020)’, has warned Canadians that:

“Bill C-8 directly confronts the teaching of cultural and religious beliefs about sexuality and gender with the threat of imprisonment. It also severely restricts the ability of consenting adults to voluntarily receive the supports of their choice in relation to sexuality and gender by making it criminal to advertise or receive material benefit from ‘conversion therapy’ as overbroadly defined … Bill C-8 imposes broad criminal prohibitions that violate Canadian human rights and constitutional freedoms, including Charter rights to liberty and security of the person, freedom of expression, freedom of conscience and religion and equality.”

What the bill in fact does is remove meaningful personal choice by imposing the affirmation and promotion of homosexuality and/or gender transition as the only acceptable form of counsel, guidance or treatment – especially for children experiencing gender identity distress. Under the cover of outlawing barbaric and harmful ‘treatments’ that no-one actually practices, a radical and ideologically pagan view of sexuality and gender is enforced by making the definition of ‘conversion therapy’ so wide (including spiritual, medical and psychological supports) that youth with unwanted feelings or addictions would have no choice but to have ‘treatments’ that either reinforce these unwanted feelings and addictions, or permanently alter their bodies. It does this by banning alternative supports with the threat of imprisonment, violating the Charter rights and freedoms of children, their parents, church communities and health care professionals.

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On the brink: the criminalisation of Christianity in Canada - Christian Concern

Being homosexual is definitely not a sin in the Bible. It is committing the acts that is sin, correct? 
 

A man may have an uncontrollable list for 13 year-old boys. Acting on those impulses is the part that’s illegal, not having them.  
 

People lust for others in vain all the time. Married people do it. Teenagers do it. Everyone does, at one time or another. It is acting on the thought that creates the sin, and, in some cases, the crime. 

Personally, I think that trying to convert someone to being straight is a terrible thing to do to their future spouse. 

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9 hours ago, blackbird said:

When in the forum have you ever paid attention to "salient facts"?   

You are just playing a slight of hands with words. 

Point out where the Bible says any of this nonsense you’re trying to codify into law. The Bible commands acts of abortion, doesn’t it? And it doesn’t say anything about so-called “conversion therapy.” You pick and choose the values you want, and then you seek to impose those values upon others. 
 

You’re probably like Herschel Walker, who’s making a living out of preaching against abortion and having kids out of wedlock, while doing exactly that.  Your “moral heroes” aren’t moral at all.  

Edited by Rebound
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