Democratic renewal

[myata]

56 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Why have an Emergency Measures act at all if you put in a clause saying that people directed to enforce it could be charged layer based on a legal judgement that hasn't begun yet?

Because that would make those who would think of invoking it also think about possible consequences, personal ones, they are challenged to think in other terms as is becoming clear these days. That in no way precludes other meaningful checks and controls, additionally. Can't overdo accountability at this point it's been too long and far too entrenched.

Edited February 20, 2022 by myata

[Michael Hardner]

25 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

 when was the last time they had a meaningful debate in parliament over a major topic like our health care system and how to fix it... 

Your post is telling.

How could you even begin to debate a service that spent $300B in 2021? there needs to be a muti platform pervasive communication network to deal with healthcare in all levels.

It's our most important expense, and little discussed.

[myata]

11 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

It's our most important expense, and little discussed.

Discussing, in the existing system is pointless. It can't do anything other than spending most of the money the public gives it on itself and it knows it. Everything else is a shallow, empty and useless decoration. Like a carnival wagon that produces all kinds of whistles, fireworks and other noise but barely moves.

[myata]

The last stand of democracy in Canada. Only downhill, from here. Change is not possible.

[Moonbox]

7 hours ago, myata said:

Discussing, in the existing system is pointless. It can't do anything other than spending most of the money the public gives it on itself and it knows it. Everything else is a shallow, empty and useless decoration. Like a carnival wagon that produces all kinds of whistles, fireworks and other noise but barely moves.

So again, this is bad, someone needs to do SOMETHING.  

Thanks for saying so for the 50th time this week.  

[myata]

21 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Thanks for saying

Why do you feel the urge to utter something, when clearly there's nothing of any value? Back to the topic of democratic renewal.

[Moonbox]

39 minutes ago, myata said:

Why do you feel the urge to utter something, when clearly there's nothing of any value? Back to the topic of democratic renewal.

I'm trying to see if you'll actually post something of substance.  You have two topics on the forum right now that are saying basically the same thing, and it's so overly broad and vague that there's no foundation on which to even debate.  Michael's tried several times to get you to narrow things down and be specific about your complaints and potential solution, but you've so far proven unwilling or unable.  All you can really tell us here is that you think the "system" is broken, that we need to tear it all down, and that you're upset (punching the pillow).  

Maybe we need a 3rd thread on this...

[Michael Hardner]

We did get someone to assert that there's inadequate debate and - implicitly - public understanding of healthcare issues.

[myata]

9 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

I'm trying to see if you'll actually post

You can try it elsewhere (hint). Why would one be willing to spend any of their time somewhere they don't like? Unless you're into masochism that is, but that would be an entirely different topic (see Ethics and Morals)

[myata]

A dark day in a dim country in a deep impasse. There's no easy exits from here. Time will not heal. A slow but steady decline into the third world.

[Zeitgeist]

9 hours ago, myata said:

A dark day in a dim country in a deep impasse. There's no easy exits from here. Time will not heal. A slow but steady decline into the third world.

Or not.  Let’s see what unfolds.  Regular people have to say, “not okay”.   I think and hope that many will and are saying that.  It’s certainly true out west and even in Quebec right now.  Big truck convoy starting in Montana. 

[myata]

45 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I think and hope that many will and are saying that.  It’s certainly true out west and even in Quebec right now.  Big truck convoy starting in Montana. 

It'll have to find a way to shape itself into a real lasting change. I'm not saying it isn't possible - just that it wouldn't be easy. Very much not easy, given the decades and centuries of detachment and entrenchment.

[Michael Hardner]

It's telling that once the implications of the protest were clear - most chose to leave rather than see their livelihood impacted.  This tells me that the basic trade off for them is "my life is good enough, I'm not going to risk it".

So we're not talking about Communards on barricades as romantic as that might feel.

The anger and resentment is, to my mind, more cultural than anything else.  The specifics of what people don't like about our nation are hard to get but the cultural dissonance does come through clearly.

[myata]

2 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

This tells me that the basic trade off for them is "my life is good enough, I'm not going to risk it".

It's the same attitude that led Nazi party to the power. I'm sure many commentators suggested to take it lightly not worry too much. Only this time we won't be able to claim ignorance and naivete.

[Moonbox]

I find it eerily fascinating how quickly some people fall back on Nazi comparisons here these days.  Godwin's Law is a well-established rule in most reasonable discussion groups and the moment someone tosses out a Nazi comparison it's clear they've lost the debate because.  It demonstrates a clear and obvious failure to articulate their point.  Here, it's glorified - like a doubling-down on stupid.

[Zeitgeist]

37 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

It's telling that once the implications of the protest were clear - most chose to leave rather than see their livelihood impacted.  This tells me that the basic trade off for them is "my life is good enough, I'm not going to risk it".

So we're not talking about Communards on barricades as romantic as that might feel.

The anger and resentment is, to my mind, more cultural than anything else.  The specifics of what people don't like about our nation are hard to get but the cultural dissonance does come through clearly.

Medical discretion is a human right and people shouldn’t have fewer rights for demanding it.  

[Michael Hardner]

40 minutes ago, myata said:

1. It's the same attitude that led Nazi party to the power.
2. I'm sure many commentators suggested to take it lightly not worry too much. Only this time we won't be able to claim ignorance and naivete.

1. Godwin.  Lots of people gave their lives to stop the Nazis, because it was a real threat.  If the Nazis had said "you will lose your vehicle" if you park here and people parked there anyway... and they were towed... not really what we are talking about today.
2. Sometimes when they say 'don't worry too much' they are right.  The G20 protest response was a bigger overreaction to this I would say.

[myata]

4 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

when they say 'don't worry too much' they are right.

In that case, we'll just have to see. No other arbiter when facts, past experience and logic are all mute. There's only one way to find out and I'd rather observe it from outside.

[myata]

13 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Godwin. 

Bull. Nazis happened, happened again and will happen again. You have to argue the point but you forg0t how. Passivity and indifference of the society led them to uncontested power. That will happen again as soon as the conditions are right and why wouldn't it? You can't tell.

Of course they can be different, modern Nazis. They may not have to destroy people physically just annihilate their normal lives. And again you'll fail to see it, understand and recognize for what it it. Because no experience can help in cases of mental block, all-powerful dogma.

Edited February 22, 2022 by myata

[Goddess]

5 minutes ago, myata said:

Bull. Nazis happened, happened again and will happen again. You have to argue the point but you forget how. Passivity and indifference of the society led them to uncontested power. That will happen again as soon as the conditions are right and why wouldn't it? You can't say.

Of course they can be different, modern Nazis. They may not have to destroy people physically just annihilate their normal lives. And again you'll fail to see it, understand and recognize for what it it. Because no experience can help in cases of mental block, all-powerful dogma.

The only argument ones like MH have about the tanking of democracy in Canada is: "This is Canada! It will NEVER happen here!!"

Meanwhile, all our fail-safes against a totalitarian government installing itself or taking over are being eroded and eliminated and he giggles about it, because so far it's just punishing people he doesn't approve of.

[Moonbox]

and your foolish hyperbole will be proven wrong again, just like all the other times.  The bigger danger to democracy is the delusional coping of fringe groups who zealously crusade against common sense, fact and reason.  

 

[Zeitgeist]

20 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

and your foolish hyperbole will be proven wrong again, just like all the other times.  The bigger danger to democracy is the delusional coping of fringe groups who zealously crusade against common sense, fact and reason.  

 

Well not exactly.  We have constitutional protections that must not be violated.  We mustn’t pretend that science is always conclusive or that there’s always a single consensus on scientific perspective.   Also, and critical right now, human values are of greater importance than just what “science” tells us, which can change and easily lapse into pseudoscience.  Eugenics is a perfect example of “science”/pseudoscience working against humanity.  

Edited February 22, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[Michael Hardner]

54 minutes ago, myata said:

1. will happen again.
2. You have to argue the point but you forg0t how.
3. Passivity and indifference of the society led them to uncontested power. That will happen again as soon as the conditions are right and why wouldn't it? You can't tell.
4. Of course they can be different, modern Nazis.
5. They may not have to destroy people physically just annihilate their normal lives. And again you'll fail to see it, understand and recognize for what it it. Because no experience can help in cases of mental block, all-powerful dogma.

1. Not a certainty.
2. Why don't you try to argue that Naziism will definitely happen again ?  Hint: hard to argue what will/won't happen
3. I would like to think that the world has learned a little.   There definitely are changes.  
4. Without Nazi ideology they aren't Nazis.
5. Whatever you are afraid of, the remedies are open discussion and general freedom to criticize.  Authoritarian governments tend to tamp down on that stuff.  If we still have it, we are probably ok.

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Goddess said:

1. The only argument ones like MH have about the tanking of democracy in Canada is: "This is Canada! It will NEVER happen here!!"

2. Meanwhile, all our fail-safes against a totalitarian government installing itself or taking over are being eroded
and eliminated

3. ... he giggles about it, because so far it's just punishing people he doesn't approve of.

1. I don't think we can say Naziism won't happen here.  Prominent people like Pat King (note: NOT a Convoy organizer) espouse theories openly on YouTube and try to attach themselves to protests like the Convoy movement
2. The Harper government surveillance bills were more of a threat IMO and I supported those.  This, along with the G20 response, is on the list of things the Convoy people never talk about either because it fouls up their argument or because they started studying history in 2016
3.  It's hard NOT to giggle at the ridiculous claims being made sometimes, but to my credit I do try not to

[Goddess]

2 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

3.  It's hard NOT to giggle at the ridiculous claims being made sometimes, but to my credit I do try not to

I wonder when views like the right to medical bodily autonomy and the other rights and the upholding of the Charter and the Constitution became "extremist" views.