Vaccine passports

[CITIZEN_2015]

2 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Nope. Not according to that article.

There's only 1 meaning for that in the English language. It means 1400 from that group. Period.

This is quite different from other sources which seem to claim that vaxxed people "only get mildly ill". 

This shows out of 165 million Americans over months only 125,000 got infected. This is very low percentage while out of remaining 90 million, millions got infected. Again pointing to vaccine effectiveness.

[WestCanMan]

3 hours ago, Boges said:

In your opinion. But if it's vaccinated people crowding into ICUs like we see in Florida, something has to be done. I'm hopeful we've already reached a vaccination level where that won't be an issue. But the unvaccinated need to feel the pressure. I think they are already. 

Is that what passes for leftist logic, Boges?

If vaccinated people are crowding into ICUs then what's the point of getting vaccinated?

"Here, sign a waiver and take the experimental jab. There's a small chance that it will kill you or cause severe health problems in the short term, and we have no idea what the long-term side effects might be, but it might offer some protection from C19. OK, it doesn't seem to be offering any protection at all, but if you get the vaxx then at least you'll be able to go out in public."  ?

 

The only decent argument against masking early on was that it might give people a false sense of confidence, so they might get closer to other humans than they should. This argument seems to apply against the vaxx now. IE, it seems to be offering people false confidence.

[WestCanMan]

7 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

This shows out of 165 million Americans over months only 125,000 got infected. This is very low percentage while out of remaining 90 million, millions got infected. Again pointing to vaccine effectiveness.

1) not everyone gets tested, 2) you don't know how many "months" this was over, and 3) there weren't a lot of fully vaccinated Americans until the beginning of summer. The article was from July 30th. It's almost early for a lot of vaxxed deaths to be rolling in.

Furthermore, if you look at the graph for covid infections last year, it followed the seasonal flu's trend of dropping to minimal levels during the summer. That means that it would be impossible to say that the vaxx was helping until fall/winter of this year, and anyone who tries to blow vaxx sunshine up your ass before then is just a bullshitter.

[myata]

We don't have to wait long. Either, comes September and October, with 70-80% of vaccinated population hospitals and ICU will stay quiet and clear; or not. At that point anyone who cares will see and know whatever march of the day plays.

[OftenWrong]

9 minutes ago, myata said:

We don't have to wait long. Either, comes September and October, with 70-80% of vaccinated population hospitals and ICU will stay quiet and clear; or not. At that point anyone who cares will see and know whatever march of the day plays.

I love ad-hoc experiments that are dreamt up on the fly, especially when their outcome determines the very fate of humanity, and also that we don't have time or perhaps couldn't bother to review the results in an empirical way. Wait, it's an emergency. No time for forethought, let alone afterthought. Just onward onward. Ever onward Covid soldiers. Next up we've got some marionettes with an opinion on the matter.

[myata]

Well yeah there was that two decade warning after SARS, then MERS and several pandemic prophecies. By why worry, who needs to worry here with CEO salaries clinking pension plans chinking travel from Wuhan, sure not a problem! and here's drawn by a five year old caricature of "public information". I think this is just the reality of things and it was hidden for a (long) while behind some numbers and reports somewhere and (feels weird to say thanks) to the pandemic it's standing out a bit clearer, but who wants to see?

[Zeitgeist]

We already know that vaccination is very successful at protecting people from serious illness from Covid.   Nevertheless, there will be an uptick in infections, including among the vaccinated, as we fully open up and approach flu season.   That’s fine and normal, so it’s really important that we face that coming reality calmly and don’t resort to more restrictions.

In Israel now police are shaking down people, checking that they are both fully vaccinated and masked up.  That’s why I oppose vaccine passports and government restrictions at this point, because there will be no end to the restrictions and violations of freedom for a disease that has half the death rate of our leading illnesses among the vaccinated.  Most of our population is vaccinated and, other than for unvaccinated children who may not know how to protect themselves, there is no justification for mandatory public health restrictions.

“Israeli police can now be seen patrolling streets and malls and showing up at weddings and other events to ensure people are wearing masks and that they have been fully vaccinated. Those bucking health regulations face large fines.”

I don’t believe that police should have the right to check your vaccination status or require you to cover up.  If private businesses want to maintain such policies, they are free to do so.  That’s the policy in Ontario and I hope it stands during the “4th wave”, 5th wave, and 10th wave.

Edited August 12, 2021 by Zeitgeist

[Boges]

13 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Is that what passes for leftist logic, Boges?

If vaccinated people are crowding into ICUs then what's the point of getting vaccinated?

"Here, sign a waiver and take the experimental jab. There's a small chance that it will kill you or cause severe health problems in the short term, and we have no idea what the long-term side effects might be, but it might offer some protection from C19. OK, it doesn't seem to be offering any protection at all, but if you get the vaxx then at least you'll be able to go out in public."  ?

 

The only decent argument against masking early on was that it might give people a false sense of confidence, so they might get closer to other humans than they should. This argument seems to apply against the vaxx now. IE, it seems to be offering people false confidence.

There's practically a zero chance it will kill you.

Edited August 12, 2021 by Boges

[myata]

We sure needed it ahead of going into all the marvelous surprises that climate change has in store for the civilization. Surely, only a beginning. Mask, shots, full oxygen suit, clap and turn around hands on head enforced by the police and to be continued. It's not even funny to read doomsday fantasies anymore the reality will beat them all fair and square.

Edited August 12, 2021 by myata

[WestCanMan]

4 hours ago, Boges said:

There's practically a zero chance it will kill you.

Same for covid, unless you're over 70 or if you have a serious medical condition.

Vaccinating 20 yr olds is just like padding the stats for the vaccine. That's 30M people who would never even have gotten the sniffles from covid who are vaxxed and "none of them even got the sniffles! It's a miracle!" But some people in that demographic have gotten very sick from the vaccine, and we don't know what mRNA vaxxes will do to unborn babies yet. 

[Boges]

6 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Same for covid, unless you're over 70 or if you have a serious medical condition.

Vaccinating 20 yr olds is just like padding the stats for the vaccine. That's 30M people who would never even have gotten the sniffles from covid who are vaxxed and "none of them even got the sniffles! It's a miracle!" But some people in that demographic have gotten very sick from the vaccine, and we don't know what mRNA vaxxes will do to unborn babies yet. 

Incorrect. 

[CITIZEN_2015]

4 hours ago, Boges said:

There's practically a zero chance it will kill you.

1400 fully vaccinated people  in US have died since December out of 125,000 infected. 1400 is not zero.

[myata]

What does masking in well-spaced indoor areas with ample distancing for a short time visit does, at low levels of infection? Does it reduce infections, by how much? to justify (indefinite as it seems) continuation? Where can one see this information not the daily muzak on the second year of the event?

Between "alternative information" and no meaningful information, which one is better?

[Winston]

6 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

1400 fully vaccinated people  in US have died since December out of 125,000 infected. 1400 is not zero.

How many people have natural immunity ( post infection) in the population? How many of those naturally immune people have died due to reinfection? 

The virus has a high transmission ratio, as a result, the probability that most of the population has natural immunity is quite high.   

[myata]

5 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

1400 fully vaccinated people  in US have died since December out of 125,000 infected. 1400 is not zero.

Is there evidence that vaccination prevents or suppresses spread of the infection? It does not seem to be supported by observations. With 70% of vaccinated population (at least one dose) one should see significantly lower rate of infection than last year but if fact we consistently observe multiples thereof.

And if it doesn't suppress it then calls for mandatory (outside of specific work areas or professions where it can be justified) or incentivized vaccinations wouldn't hold water as majority of infections would come from vaccinated.

[WestCanMan]

27 minutes ago, Boges said:

Incorrect. 

Incorrect.

[WestCanMan]

15 minutes ago, myata said:

Is there evidence that vaccination prevents or suppresses spread of the infection?

There's evidence to the contrary, right from the CDC: https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/30/provincetown-covid-outbreak-vaccinated/

Quote

CDC study shows three-fourths of people infected in Massachusetts coronavirus outbreak were vaccinated

The percentage of vaxxed people who were carrying covid was slightly higher than the number of vaxxed people in the state at the time. IIRC it was 63% dbl-vaxxed and a number in the low 70s that was single-dosed. Not really worth quibbling about whether or not the % was higher though, for all intents and purposes it was close enough to be considered 'equal'. IE, placebo-like. IE, identical to what you'd expect with a placebo. 

Edited August 12, 2021 by WestCanMan

[Winston]

9 minutes ago, myata said:

What does masking in well-spaced indoor areas with ample distancing for a short time visit does, at low levels of infection? Does it reduce infections, by how much? to justify (indefinite as it seems) continuation? Where can one see this information not the daily muzak on the second year of the event?

Between "alternative information" and no meaningful information, which one is better?

The use of masks is an inconclusive presumptive measure against transmission. Masks are recommended as a mechanical safety measure, in place of a better protection method.  Unless medical N95 masks are used, inward protection (for the individual) is limited.  But as an outward measuring, the general use of masks ( cloth or N95) does provide outward protection. Sneezing or transmission of spit is prevented through use of masks. 

The problem with masks is how they are used. How they fit and the filtration method. I would argue masks do prevent large particles (water, large molecules) from entering or exiting the individual. However, masks do not prevent viral transmission based on viral size. If a virus is transmitted through air intake, most masks used are inadequate to provide individual protection. Aerosol transmission is still inconclusive. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7553716/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7293495/

[CITIZEN_2015]

17 minutes ago, Winston said:

How many people have natural immunity ( post infection) in the population? How many of those naturally immune people have died due to reinfection? 

The virus has a high transmission ratio, as a result, the probability that most of the population has natural immunity is quite high.   

What? Are you saying that most of the population are already infected with coronavirus? Not to mention that previously infected estimated 5 to 10% of population may highly likely be re-infected with Delta variant as this is another mutated virus.

[WestCanMan]

39 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

1400 fully vaccinated people  in US have died since December out of 125,000 infected. 1400 is not zero.

He was actually talking about dying just from getting the jab, not about dying from getting covid after the jab. 

I wonder if they know which vaxx the people who died got. IIRC there are 4 different ones? 

[Winston]

15 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

What? Are you saying that most of the population are already infected with coronavirus? Not to mention that previously infected estimated 5 to 10% of population may highly likely be re-infected with Delta variant as this is another mutated virus.

I am asking what are the numbers of (post infected) naturally immune individuals in the population? Not an estimate, the actual number of naturally immune individuals. 

[CITIZEN_2015]

18 minutes ago, Winston said:

I am asking what are the numbers of (post infected) naturally immune individuals in the population? Not an estimate, the actual number of naturally immune individuals. 

What on earth is natural immune individual. You mean those not vaccinated and not infected but they have naturally antibodies for covid in their bodies? Are you serious? Oh yes one and that is Superman.

ps - I get this DAMN message - Do you Hold Gold in your Portfolio- I don't know where the hell it comes from. If it is from this forum then please STOP IT. It is getting on my nerves.

Edited August 12, 2021 by CITIZEN_2015

[Boges]

48 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

There's evidence to the contrary, right from the CDC: https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/30/provincetown-covid-outbreak-vaccinated/

The percentage of vaxxed people who were carrying covid was slightly higher than the number of vaxxed people in the state at the time. IIRC it was 63% dbl-vaxxed and a number in the low 70s that was single-dosed. Not really worth quibbling about whether or not the % was higher though, for all intents and purposes it was close enough to be considered 'equal'. IE, placebo-like. IE, identical to what you'd expect with a placebo. 

You clearly don't understand the purpose of a vaccine. 

[Winston]

47 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

What on earth is natural immune individual. You mean those not vaccinated and not infected but they have naturally antibodies for covid in their bodies? Are you serious? Oh yes one and that is Superman.

My error, natural immunity is the improper term.

I mean individuals with immunity found after recovery of the previous viral infection. What number of individuals have lasting immunity after previous viral infection?

[taxesanddeath]

19 hours ago, myata said:

We don't have to wait long. Either, comes September and October, with 70-80% of vaccinated population hospitals and ICU will stay quiet and clear; or not. At that point anyone who cares will see and know whatever march of the day plays.

will We hear it if it is not. Like now, we hear no C19 vaccine bad news in the MSM. The funny thing is that I heard some in Asian and Europe.

P.S. I am pro-vaccinated, but it does not mean I am illogical and stupid