Freedom of Movement

[cougar]

2 minutes ago, cannuck said:

Yes, being fecetious to some extent, but:   Having SOME immigrants (i.e. ones from compatible cultures and qualified to be productive) would set an embarrassing precedent for SOME reserves (there are some who actually DO work) because they will dig to the bottom of the earth (that's a mining pun) to find the best paying jobs and the most hours of work.   Conversely, putting economic refugees from very incompatible cultures into the heart of "real Canada" would stem the tidal wave of people who genuinely would be better off (as will we) by them staying at home.

Which are the compatible cultures and compatible to what?    In a predominantly Chinese or East Indian Vancouver, immigrants from China and India seem "compatible".

Assuming you have a mostly white population in the North (or indigenous)  where do you get the "compatible people from?

What is the percentage of British or French immigrants to Canada as a percentage of the whole immigrant flow?  My guess is 1-3% max.

I am 100% FOR your "Stay the fuck home" immigration campaign!  But no politician will listen.

[Army Guy]

On 1/16/2021 at 4:54 AM, Zeitgeist said:

But again, you can't have it both ways.  Not everyone can live in pristine nature as you do because there likely isn't enough of it.   That's why we plan, to find a balance.  The biggest driver of rampant development, certainly in Ontario and BC, is immigration.  We have come to rely on it for economic growth, so if you want reduced economic growth and development, probably start with immigration.  Personally I think the issue is that there are no incentives to settle in the far north, which means our land and cities in the south become ever more stressed.  

I think whom ever is doing all this planning to find balances is doing a real shitty job, look at most of our large cities their infra structure is lagging way behind the amount of people moving to these city centers. Yes they do entice immigrants through incentives to try other parts of the country like the Maritimes, but once they have fulfilled their commitments it is off to the big city they go, to be around people of their own kind.

The great Canadian myth that we are a country of diverse cultures and that it makes us stronger, is false, our immigrants come here to enjoy their culture in our country, and we promote that liberal myth every chance we get. and it is a huge political lie . All one has to do is look a china town in any large city, or parts of Ont where the population is mostly Muslim, there are thousands of examples.  Here in NB we are seeing those results of Muslim immigrants from Syria who the government forced upon the Maritimes like some failed science experiment are now fleeing to the big cities... I mean how could anyone not love the Maritimes. we're friendly , love the outdoors, love to shoot shit, go for a rip on your wheeler, the hunting and fishing are great. 

Relying on immigration for our economic growth is wrong, for several reasons, we already have a major infra structure deficit across the country, and by pouring in massive amounts of immigrants is only going to increase that, and with the country in it's current state where do we get the funding... What we should be doing is cutting all the red tape the government has thrown in front of our resource sector, and other sectors that are actually shrinking our economy.. instead of selling them to the Chinese. Invest in our own country, rather than all the liberal programs around the world. 

Relying on one method for our economical future is not the best way to go. Anyone will tell you don't put all your eggs into one basket. and Immigration is not the end all be all to increase our economical future, it is but one method. 

  

[cannuck]

3 hours ago, cougar said:

Which are the compatible cultures and compatible to what?    In a predominantly Chinese or East Indian Vancouver, immigrants from China and India seem "compatible".

Assuming you have a mostly white population in the North (or indigenous)  where do you get the "compatible people from?

What is the percentage of British or French immigrants to Canada as a percentage of the whole immigrant flow?  My guess is 1-3% max.

I am 100% FOR your "Stay the fuck home" immigration campaign!  But no politician will listen.

YURP, of course.  Oz and NZ too...but we don't seem to be very attractive to most of them.  I find Middle East and Chinese second gen to be very successful, and somewhat true for India, but could do without that particular country's first cycle people.

My big bother is this mindless addiction to growth at any cost.  We "need" immigration in ridiculous numbers from highly questionable sources like yet another hole in our collective head.

[Nefarious Banana]

25 minutes ago, cannuck said:

. . . .  this mindless addiction to growth at any cost.  We 'need' immigration in ridiculous numbers from highly questionable sources like yet another hole in our collective head.

Do you let everyone into your house just because they knocked on your door?  Canada's immigration policy does not work in its present left wing form.  In fact, there's not much of anything left wing that works in this country.

[cougar]

1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

I think whom ever is doing all this planning to find balances is doing a real shitty job,

 

For as long as there is "growth" we cannot speak of a balance.

Those who promise us a balance are downright lying to us.

[Zeitgeist]

32 minutes ago, cougar said:

For as long as there is "growth" we cannot speak of a balance.

Those who promise us a balance are downright lying to us.

Growth is what enables people to pay off their mortgages and feel like they're progressing.  Without any growth or modest inflation, most people wouldn't rise above their station.  Even putting all the unemployed on a universal dole would become unsustainable without government revenue.  Your feudal dream spells economic disaster.  Your Liberal commie friends are banking on rapid economic growth to pay for all the Covid measures meant to protect you.  

[Zeitgeist]

6 hours ago, cougar said:

The main reason is the higher cost of living in the North.  Who wants to live in camp just to pay bills?

The reason it's expensive is economy of scale.  It's not profitable to distribute and trade with sparsely populated remote communities, so populate them and make transportation access viable.  

Edited January 18, 2021 by Zeitgeist

[Aristides]

22 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Maybe not that far north, but places like Cochrane that have rail and highway access that are gateways to the north.  Very little resource development has happened in some of these places which are almost completely uninhabited once you leave town.  Personally I think 60% of immigration should have a northern address requirement for a minimum of five years.  Canada would attract enough interest and we'd finally have a northern workforce.   The northern uninhabited swath of Ontario is bigger than counties like Switzerland.  Anyway, that's another topic.  

What will they do for those five years, live on pogey?

You complain about having your own freedom of movement restricted but would force others to live where you want them too.

If you doubled this country's population, people would pretty much live where most of them do now.

Edited January 18, 2021 by Aristides

[Zeitgeist]

3 minutes ago, Aristides said:

What will they do for those five years, live on pogey?

Mine the hell out of the place, build infrastructure, open up the north.  My guess is that companies would build logging roads and hire on mass if they knew there was a guaranteed workforce.  In fact, let business choose the best spots for targeted northern development.  The feds can't get an infrastructure project off the ground.  

[Zeitgeist]

6 minutes ago, Aristides said:

 

If you doubled this country's population, people would pretty much live where most of them do now.

Not if citizenship doesn't arrive until you do your time in Canada's Siberia.  Until then it's a tentative work permit.  You don't think there would be enough interest?  There's a whole industry built on facilitating would-be immigrants.  Pogey?  We have people on here who want to shut down industry and put everyone on the welfare to keep rich buggers' mountain retreats pristine.  There's no understanding that wealth disappears once it has to pay for people to do nothing and there's no government revenue from business.  

[Aristides]

5 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Not if citizenship doesn't arrive until you do your time in Canada's Siberia.  Until then it's a tentative work permit.  You don't think there would be enough interest?  There's a whole industry built on facilitating would-be immigrants.  Pogey?  We have people on here who want to shut down industry and put everyone on the welfare to keep rich buggers' mountain retreats pristine.  There's no understanding that wealth disappears once it has to pay for people to do nothing and there's no government revenue from business.  

Where are they going to work? Just because you tell them to go north doesn't mean there will be jobs waiting for them? They will go where they can make a living, just like everyone else. 

[Zeitgeist]

23 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Where are they going to work? Just because you tell them to go north doesn't mean there will be jobs waiting for them? They will go where they can make a living, just like everyone else. 

There's work and demand.  Immigrants also create businesses.  Anyway, they don't have to stay if they don't want to.  No one is making them come.  

[Aristides]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

There's work and demand.  Immigrants also create businesses.  Anyway, they don't have to stay if they don't want to.  No one is making them come.  

Really?  Where? What are they going to do, farm muskeg?

[Zeitgeist]

2 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Really?  Where? What are they going to do, farm muskeg?

Lots of new strains of hardy winter crops.  Build greenhouses.  Mine minerals, natural gas, rebuild reserve infrastructure, build call centres...

[Aristides]

9 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Lots of new strains of hardy winter crops.  Build greenhouses.  Mine minerals, natural gas, rebuild reserve infrastructure, build call centres...

Who is going to pay for it all? If there was money to be made, someone would already be doing it.

[Nefarious Banana]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

There's work and demand.  Immigrants also create businesses.  Anyway, they don't have to stay if they don't want to.  No one is making them come.  

You just don't get it. You have no concept of 'up north' or isolated resource based camps, or the scattered resource(s) themselves.  

[cougar]

5 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Without any growth or modest inflation, most people wouldn't rise above their station.  Even putting all the unemployed on a universal dole would become unsustainable without government revenue. 

I like your use of "Unsustainable".

Now try to understand only one thing:  Growth is Unsustainable!

[Aristides]

7 hours ago, cougar said:

I like your use of "Unsustainable".

Now try to understand only one thing:  Growth is Unsustainable!

Better get the birth rate up then or you will have a nation of old people.

[Zeitgeist]

12 hours ago, Nefarious Banana said:

You just don't get it. You have no concept of 'up north' or isolated resource based camps, or the scattered resource(s) themselves.  

I've discussed these topics at length thousands of posts ago.  Again, I don't really care how viable it is.  The whole point is, find something to do that pays while freezing your ass off up north for 5 years, get your citizenship, then go where you like.  Can't make it work?  Oh well. 

[Army Guy]

38 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I've discussed these topics at length thousands of posts ago.  Again, I don't really care how viable it is.  The whole point is, find something to do that pays while freezing your ass off up north for 5 years, get your citizenship, then go where you like.  Can't make it work?  Oh well. 

Your creating the same problem you are coping with already, restriction of movement, more government control, and then end your post with Can't make it work OH well.  I think it is kind of hypocritical don't you think.

Instead of shipping people off to the far north, why don't we just tweak our current immigration policies, and work the problem from new angles, like pay young Canadians to have more children, tens of billions are spent on immigration and refugees, every year. Increase family allowance until it is affordable for couples to have more children, Canadians will do anything for money, or should i say the socialist left. Perhaps Invest in a national child care system. Or some other incentive to have Canadians have more children. I'm sure all these Brainiac's could figure out a system that is workable.   

Edited January 18, 2021 by Army Guy

[cannuck]

17 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Growth is what enables people to pay off their mortgages and feel like they're progressing.  Without any growth or modest inflation, most people wouldn't rise above their station.  

That is simply not true.  Well, they may FEEL like they are progressing, but they are not.  The only way for a person, company or country to "rise above their station" is by creating wealth.  Just growing and inflating does not create any wealth, it just inflates the money supply and re-distributes it to those with the privilege of access - which is NOT Joe Lunchbucket in any way.  You get ahead by being more productive, not just more populous.

All that growth achieves is faster depletion of finite resources.

[Zeitgeist]

4 hours ago, Army Guy said:

Your creating the same problem you are coping with already, restriction of movement, more government control, and then end your post with Can't make it work OH well.  I think it is kind of hypocritical don't you think.

Instead of shipping people off to the far north, why don't we just tweak our current immigration policies, and work the problem from new angles, like pay young Canadians to have more children, tens of billions are spent on immigration and refugees, every year. Increase family allowance until it is affordable for couples to have more children, Canadians will do anything for money, or should i say the socialist left. Perhaps Invest in a national child care system. Or some other incentive to have Canadians have more children. I'm sure all these Brainiac's could figure out a system that is workable.   

They won't have kids because urban Canadians don't want the expense, especially educated ones.  Here's the reality of the Canadian economy today:  Housing construction and development in general have been driving our economy for years. Our government relies on immigration both for workers and to continuously stoke housing demand.  It's somewhat counter-productive because it drives up the cost of housing and government services, but if on the most part the tax base is growing, government will call that success.

The bigger cost is in terms of quality of life, as we create overburdened infrastructure, crowding , and pollution, and create ghettos that are so large there's little incentive to learn an official language or engage with Canadian culture.  7 out of 10 immigrants move to the GTA.  Another 2 out of 10 move to Montreal and Vancouver, cities that cannot build infrastructure or housing fast enough to meet demand.  Let's at least spread the wealth.  We're paving over the best farmland in the country and creating pandemic traps.  We'll never make the most out of our resources without the local workforces to tap them.  Freedom of movement for citizens; territorial work visas for non-citizens except in high demand areas.  

Edited January 18, 2021 by Zeitgeist

[Zeitgeist]

3 hours ago, cannuck said:

That is simply not true.  Well, they may FEEL like they are progressing, but they are not.  The only way for a person, company or country to "rise above their station" is by creating wealth.  Just growing and inflating does not create any wealth, it just inflates the money supply and re-distributes it to those with the privilege of access - which is NOT Joe Lunchbucket in any way.  You get ahead by being more productive, not just more populous.

All that growth achieves is faster depletion of finite resources.

Productivity increases with innovation and a highly skilled, high-tech workforce.  We want to train our citizens to be that workforce and bring in immigrants to fill the gaps in the meantime.  Our points-based system does some of that, but Canada's ace is still resources.  Without large northern settlements and workforces, many projects simply aren't viable, nor is building infrastructure.  It's the main reason remote reserves often face high prices and poor services, and still need to ship youth off to residential schools.  How many of those youth return to the reserve?

[Aristides]

Getting people to work in the north is not a problem if high paying jobs are there. I don't know what it is like now but Fort Mac had some of the most expensive real estate in the country.

[cougar]

16 hours ago, Aristides said:

Better get the birth rate up then or you will have a nation of old people.

??  This is again growth.   We should be thinking of getting the birth rates down, reclaiming the land, turning parking lots into forests .......backing off, so we stand a chance in the long run.